Mustang to adopt Evos styling
#61
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
Guy's long-standing challenge has been to name a coupe for sale today that contains IRS, a V8 and costs somewhere near what Camaro costs and weighs significantly less. I always thought that was a "win by default" argument because outside of Challenger, there ISN'T a non-luxury plated coupe for sale that meets all those criteria. And it doesn't mean that it can't be done, the problem has always been that it is far more cost effective to piggyback a sports coupe like Camaro or Challenger off the larger RWD sedan programs. So you get what we have now.
#62
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
Dan, you make some good points but this is where you start to lose it. Lord knows I feel the Camaro is overweight as well, but the Miata? BRZ? These cars aren't even in the same country code as the Camaro (and Mustang) in terms of performance-cost expectation. It's best to not use those cars as references.
Specific point of comparison: FR-S/BRZ weigh LESS than the 1st gen Scion TC, which is the same size, a small 2+2 coupe, similar market niche, and had LESS power, and is fwd, which should give it a ~50-100 lb. weight ADVANTAGE vs. the FR-S/BRZ. Yet the rwd/IRS-laden FRS-BRZ are 150 - 200 lb. lighter.
Guy's long-standing challenge has been to name a coupe for sale today that contains IRS, a V8 and costs somewhere near what Camaro costs and weighs significantly less.
I always thought that was a "win by default" argument because outside of Challenger, there ISN'T a non-luxury plated coupe for sale that meets all those criteria. And it doesn't mean that it can't be done,
the problem has always been that it is far more cost effective to piggyback a sports coupe like Camaro or Challenger off the larger RWD sedan programs. So you get what we have now.
But since the Mustang survived and did well, while the LS is dead, it bodes well for Mustang priorities to drive the next Mustang's chassis development.
And the next Camaro looks to be platform-shared with a smaller/lighter car, too.
So there is some small amount of hope for the future...
I can see how Amero-centric muscle-car enthusiasts would draw the ERRONEOUS conclusion that IRS adds weight, given the Fox-Mustang-Cobra IRS already discussed ad-nauseum, and that the Challenger and 5th gen IRS Camaro came in so absurdly heavy. But those cars INHERITED that weight from the 4200 lb. sedans they were built on.
But those of us who have enjoyed lightweight rwd/irs cars over the years, and actually physically handled the hardware involved, know better.
All else equal, a rwd/IRS on a dedicated IRS platform invokes little to no weight penalty vs. dedicated live-axle design.
Last edited by Dan Baldwin; 05-02-2012 at 07:43 AM.
#63
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
Since then, BMW has gone further in the wrong direction (as far as weight goes) than the Camaro has, which is a LOT! A real shame...
#64
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
The *POINT* is that those cars were designed with keeping weight down a priority, and IRS was chosen over live axle.
Specific point of comparison: FR-S/BRZ weigh LESS than the 1st gen Scion TC, which is the same size, a small 2+2 coupe, similar market niche, and had LESS power, and is fwd, which should give it a ~50-100 lb. weight ADVANTAGE vs. the FR-S/BRZ. Yet the rwd/IRS-laden FRS-BRZ are 150 - 200 lb. lighter.
.
Specific point of comparison: FR-S/BRZ weigh LESS than the 1st gen Scion TC, which is the same size, a small 2+2 coupe, similar market niche, and had LESS power, and is fwd, which should give it a ~50-100 lb. weight ADVANTAGE vs. the FR-S/BRZ. Yet the rwd/IRS-laden FRS-BRZ are 150 - 200 lb. lighter.
.
#65
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
Let's not forget that the smaller/lighter pony cars of the past didn't put out as much horsepower than the current lot.
While a FR-S/BRZ sized ponycar with a V8 and IRS sounds good on paper; assuming today's V8s have north of 400+ hp, you're going to have a hard time getting the tires to hook up with less mass over the wheels.
Perhaps only implied by Guy and others, but not specifically noted, a smaller lighter ponycar doesn't need a 400+hp V8 when today's V6s have 300+hp. Sure, manufacturers could develop smaller V8s that are lighter with less hp, but then would they be as efficient as the current crop of V6s? Probably not.
I love V8s as much as the next guy, but its getting to a point of diminishing returns. Perhaps its time to reinvent the wheel and people's perspectives of what a performance ponycar should be. The Chevrolet Alpha-coupe should begin to answer the question in the next few years, as to whether people are ready to accept non-V8 power in a smaller RWD coupe.
While a FR-S/BRZ sized ponycar with a V8 and IRS sounds good on paper; assuming today's V8s have north of 400+ hp, you're going to have a hard time getting the tires to hook up with less mass over the wheels.
Perhaps only implied by Guy and others, but not specifically noted, a smaller lighter ponycar doesn't need a 400+hp V8 when today's V6s have 300+hp. Sure, manufacturers could develop smaller V8s that are lighter with less hp, but then would they be as efficient as the current crop of V6s? Probably not.
I love V8s as much as the next guy, but its getting to a point of diminishing returns. Perhaps its time to reinvent the wheel and people's perspectives of what a performance ponycar should be. The Chevrolet Alpha-coupe should begin to answer the question in the next few years, as to whether people are ready to accept non-V8 power in a smaller RWD coupe.
#66
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
As a road-course guy, I'm not so concerned about putting it all down in 1st gear anyway, and my car on warmed up tires doesn't have a problem putting it all down in 2nd. Though it can spin up the tires just rolling on the throttle on cold tires when it gets into the meat of the torque curve
Perhaps only implied by Guy and others, but not specifically noted, a smaller lighter ponycar doesn't need a 400+hp V8 when today's V6s have 300+hp. Sure, manufacturers could develop smaller V8s that are lighter with less hp, but then would they be as efficient as the current crop of V6s? Probably not.
The Chevrolet Alpha-coupe should begin to answer the question in the next few years, as to whether people are ready to accept non-V8 power in a smaller RWD coupe.
#67
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
I suppose cam phasing could help with this somewhat. But at some point it makes more sense to go with a V6, although I couldn't say where that would be.
#68
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
I don't need 80# 13inch brembo rotors if I am not trying to stop 4000+ lbs.
I'll put my stock c3 brakes up against a new camaro and I bet you with 1000lbs less weight I stop just as quick. (Or would you prefer my 3rdgen with ls1 brakes on all 4 corners? Still gives me at least a 4-500lb advantage.)
I'll put my stock c3 brakes up against a new camaro and I bet you with 1000lbs less weight I stop just as quick. (Or would you prefer my 3rdgen with ls1 brakes on all 4 corners? Still gives me at least a 4-500lb advantage.)
And of course I wish the Camaro, Cts-v, etc etc were lighter, but the capability of these cars from the factory is pretty impressive. (Fairly) Track ready, and great daily drivers with a warranty...So You have to compromise somewhere. If GM\Dodge\Ford could easily reduce weight of their sports cars, and get better fuel economy without driving the production costs up they would. All these engineers aren't missing something simple.
#69
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
You ask what I would give up on a 5thgen to save weight, well lets start with the steel body. I prefer the 4thgen body panels. They don't rust, they don't dent, they were cheap to make obviously or GM wouldn't have done it. Why the $%#& did you go back to metal. It rusts, it dents, it's heavy, it's 1800's technology.
So why don't they do it on just some cars? That is part two - manufacturing. Plastic parts (or even fiberglass) take extra space in a paint shop for both painting and repair. They take extra space in assembly since they usually get painted and go on separately. So most OEM's don't want to spend the extra money for all the special equipment required to process non-steel parts. Add in the trouble with gaps and warranty, and that is why it is a no-go.
The real future is in Aluminum. You see it in hoods and decklids now, and I think it is just a matter of time before fenders and doors are aluminum too. It is tougher to process - it doesn't spotweld well - but hems fine and holds with epoxy. Also, the plant can run them down the same paint shop and body shop, so they are much less intrusive.
-Geoff
#70
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
Look at the current Equinox, they needed more volume so they started building in Oshawa. They couldn't do that with the Vette, and you couldn't build anything else at BG unless it was Vette-like. Too specialized, no manufacturing flexibility.
-Geoff
#72
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
OMG you jump from on point to another. YOUR point was something about fender gap. Obviously not an issue on either the vette or 4thgen and the 4thgen was built in large numbers, just like all the other plastic cars made over the years.
Some of you would make great CEO's. You bicker and nit pick, change the subject and only know how to say this can't be done.
Some of you would make great CEO's. You bicker and nit pick, change the subject and only know how to say this can't be done.
Obviously I am wasting my time explaining the complexities of the auto industry (that I have been employed in for 20 years as an engineer) because you already know everything. My apologies for wasting your time.
-Geoff
#73
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
OMG you jump from on point to another. YOUR point was something about fender gap. Obviously not an issue on either the vette or 4thgen and the 4thgen was built in large numbers, just like all the other plastic cars made over the years.
Some of you would make great CEO's. You bicker and nit pick, change the subject and only know how to say this can't be done.
Some of you would make great CEO's. You bicker and nit pick, change the subject and only know how to say this can't be done.
#74
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
I have almost no knowledge of the situation, but I would guess that there have always been difficulties. Remember, Saturn switched from plastic to steel panels a few years before shutting down, the die hard Saturn people hated it but there were a myriad of reasons IIRC.
#75
Re: Mustang to adopt Evos styling
how many generic plastic cars has GM pumped out over the years starting with the now defunct saturn?
So you are saying suddenly their is a difficulty in processing these types of cars even though it's been done for nearly 2 decades on a large scale on cheaply priced cars?
So you are saying suddenly their is a difficulty in processing these types of cars even though it's been done for nearly 2 decades on a large scale on cheaply priced cars?
Saturn struggled with JD Powers and Consumer Reports for years because of the fit and finish problems the plastic panels caused. You can't put out a new model and have the quality ratings in the toilet right out of the gate.
GM is the world leader in forming Aluminum. They actually have invented a proprietary process to form aluminum almost like vacuum molding plastic. I thin kit is just a matter of time before almost every car they make has aluminum hood and decklids, with doors not far behind.
-Geoff