IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
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From: The Golden State
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Originally Posted by JoeliusZ28
I can understand to a point the absence of an LS6 in the f-bods, but the GTO is higher on the totem pole than an F-Bod. Im trying to figure out why (by yours and other peoples standards) the GTO is not considered an upscale car. For crying out loud, they were shooting for BMW quality interior and handling. AFAIK they achieved that didnt they? I know they did at least when it comes to the interior. So I guess BMW quality interior and handling isnt upscale enough!?!?!? Another thing im not quite understanding is why everyone is complaining about the GTO having an LS7 40k or whatever lower-than-zo6/ctsv price it may be. The muscle car era was all about over-done engines in plain-jane cars. There was a reason for that. People want to go fast for cheap. (duh.) IMHO there is no way id spend the extra 20k on a zo6 just for handling and lightweight. Id much rather save my money (assuming I had that kind of $), add a few lbs, and actually have a backseat...im sure the GTO would handle plenty good enough for my tastes with some decent rubber on all four corners. GM should also take notice that other companies like DCX and ford are trying to build fast cars for cheap. In the dodge lineup all I have to do is point at the srt-4. ford is going a similar route with the mustang gt.
Also, I just remembered something that frustrated both my parents when buying vehicles. Package Deals. Not anything specific, it just seems that GM abuses these. For example, my mothers envoy: you couldnt get the advanced stereo, power seats, etc. etc. without getting leather. you cant do it vise versa either. Stupid. I like choosing my options individually, as do most people. I understand this drives production cost up, but in the end I think it comes out better for the customer. I consider the corvette to be a similar situation as the envoy's optioning. You have to go all out and get a vette or dont go at all. And whats funny is putting an LS7 in a corvette doesnt even violate that so-called corvette rule.
In conclusion I think GM needs to grow a pair.
/rant
Also, I just remembered something that frustrated both my parents when buying vehicles. Package Deals. Not anything specific, it just seems that GM abuses these. For example, my mothers envoy: you couldnt get the advanced stereo, power seats, etc. etc. without getting leather. you cant do it vise versa either. Stupid. I like choosing my options individually, as do most people. I understand this drives production cost up, but in the end I think it comes out better for the customer. I consider the corvette to be a similar situation as the envoy's optioning. You have to go all out and get a vette or dont go at all. And whats funny is putting an LS7 in a corvette doesnt even violate that so-called corvette rule.
In conclusion I think GM needs to grow a pair.
/rant
a) Loaded Firebirds cost the same as GTOs (which are already loaded). GTO isn't higher on the totem pole than the F-body price-wise.
b) Holden has cars costing under $30,000 that handle on par with a BMW sedan. What's price got to do with things? As for interiors, Ford pickup trucks are starting approaching BMW level in "feel" of interior materials. $23,000 Chrysler 300s are even closer.
c) You're right the muscle car era was about over done engines in plain jane cars. But those engines often cost as much as the base model of the car it's based on. Would you be willing to spend $20,000 for an engine for your $26,000 Grand Prix GTP? Muscle cars 99% of the time came with low cost base engines that were available in a wide range of cars.
d) If you want to go fast for cheap, and a 400 horse GTO doesn't do it for you, it ain't going to get done. Think about it. FOUR hundred horsepower! Just 350 is enough to run you over 160 without the 155 limiter. You seem to be complaining because GM isn't putting their most powerful engine in the car and selling it at a cut-rate price. If this is what you're saying, then, my friend, isn't and never is going to happen.
e) As for everyone else building fast cars for cheap, the Neon SRT-4 or Ford with the Mustang GT have competition via the Colbalt SS and the upcoming GM performance coupes.
I'm 100% percent behind you on mandatory "Packages". It doesn't help when you find out that most new car buyers prefer to purchase their car loaded or near-loaded. There aren't enough of us cheap bastards to force GM to allow ala-carte ordering. And although CEO Wagoner is getting the rest of GM to bankroll alot of good cars in the near future, he's a finance guy 1st. If GM saves money on packages, then they aren't going anywhere.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Richmond, TX
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Originally Posted by guionM
...snipped...
d) If you want to go fast for cheap, and a 400 horse GTO doesn't do it for you, it ain't going to get done. Think about it. FOUR hundred horsepower! Just 350 is enough to run you over 160 without the 155 limiter. You seem to be complaining because GM isn't putting their most powerful engine in the car and selling it at a cut-rate price. If this is what you're saying, then, my friend, isn't and never is going to happen.
...snipped...(
d) If you want to go fast for cheap, and a 400 horse GTO doesn't do it for you, it ain't going to get done. Think about it. FOUR hundred horsepower! Just 350 is enough to run you over 160 without the 155 limiter. You seem to be complaining because GM isn't putting their most powerful engine in the car and selling it at a cut-rate price. If this is what you're saying, then, my friend, isn't and never is going to happen.
...snipped...(
Well there's the rub isn't it? The LS2 stuff just isn't that fast.
Don't know why and don't know how. Maybe GM flips the power dial to full in '05 for the LS2.
We're in America. Not Germany. Nobody I know really gives a rat's pitoot what the top speed of anything is. We just wanna know how fast it gets to the end of the 1320. I just know based off a 3250lb vette with the motor in it that the '05 GTO ain't gonna be close to what I'm looking for in my next car.
I'd like to spend under $45grand on a low 12 sec 500hp car. That's EXACTLY what the '07 Cobra was promising till the whole "Can't fit the blown elephant sized motor under the hood" deal came out.
SO then I say fine. I'll just buy that GTO Judge for around the same money. Doesn't look as good. Little less power and mod potential but it's good enough.
Well low and behold Pontiac's HALO car doesn't rate the big gun motor.
SO in the end if I want 500hp in something useful for under $45K that'll run in the 12s easy, I gotta buy a freaking TRUCK. GREAT.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 178
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Then go buy your truck & quit urinating on our parade. One day I'll be getting a 400 h.p. GTO & be glad for it. Since it weighs a few hundred lbs. less that makes up some of the h.p. difference. Not to mention that it'll ride, handle, & stop better. And I'll have paid less for it. Besides, I've got no use for trucks.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
I doubt that the LS2 will be the top engine for the GTO. I expect a 6.2 V8 to find its way into the Goat making 450-460. Thats still a LOT of hp.
You know we have all lost our minds when we are arguing that 400hp isnt enough. But I guess if people have the cash, GM will, and should, build it.
You know we have all lost our minds when we are arguing that 400hp isnt enough. But I guess if people have the cash, GM will, and should, build it.
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 361
From: Connecticut
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Sell the other 16k units of the GTO that were supposed to already be sold, sell some 400hp versions and then maybe this thread would have some kind of logic to it, and even then I beleive it shouldn't get the motor.
How many other cars had ZR1 motors?
How many other cars had ZR1 motors?
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
I'm guessing there has to be a middle ground coming between LS2 and LS7...and that motor, be it 6.3 or 6.4 liters, would go in your limited edition GTOs and Z28 Camaros. ( 
) That will leave the big 427 to Z06 and CTS-V exclusively. Pontiac's halo car especially should be worth a bit more than a base Corvette engine.
) That will leave the big 427 to Z06 and CTS-V exclusively. Pontiac's halo car especially should be worth a bit more than a base Corvette engine.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Originally Posted by BigBlueCruiser
Well there's the rub isn't it? The LS2 stuff just isn't that fast.
Don't know why and don't know how. Maybe GM flips the power dial to full in '05 for the LS2.
We're in America. Not Germany. Nobody I know really gives a rat's pitoot what the top speed of anything is. We just wanna know how fast it gets to the end of the 1320. I just know based off a 3250lb vette with the motor in it that the '05 GTO ain't gonna be close to what I'm looking for in my next car.
I'd like to spend under $45grand on a low 12 sec 500hp car. That's EXACTLY what the '07 Cobra was promising till the whole "Can't fit the blown elephant sized motor under the hood" deal came out.
SO then I say fine. I'll just buy that GTO Judge for around the same money. Doesn't look as good. Little less power and mod potential but it's good enough.
Well low and behold Pontiac's HALO car doesn't rate the big gun motor.
SO in the end if I want 500hp in something useful for under $45K that'll run in the 12s easy, I gotta buy a freaking TRUCK. GREAT.
Don't know why and don't know how. Maybe GM flips the power dial to full in '05 for the LS2.
We're in America. Not Germany. Nobody I know really gives a rat's pitoot what the top speed of anything is. We just wanna know how fast it gets to the end of the 1320. I just know based off a 3250lb vette with the motor in it that the '05 GTO ain't gonna be close to what I'm looking for in my next car.
I'd like to spend under $45grand on a low 12 sec 500hp car. That's EXACTLY what the '07 Cobra was promising till the whole "Can't fit the blown elephant sized motor under the hood" deal came out.
SO then I say fine. I'll just buy that GTO Judge for around the same money. Doesn't look as good. Little less power and mod potential but it's good enough.
Well low and behold Pontiac's HALO car doesn't rate the big gun motor.
SO in the end if I want 500hp in something useful for under $45K that'll run in the 12s easy, I gotta buy a freaking TRUCK. GREAT.
A 400 horse LS2 isn't that fast?!
You want a low 12 second car in the quarter?
You want no less than 500 horsepower?
And you want all this for under $45,000???
Bwaaaaaaaaaaahhhahahah!
Damn dude, You almost got me.
I thought you were serious there for a moment!
Last edited by guionM; Sep 16, 2004 at 11:16 AM.
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Posts: 361
From: Connecticut
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Pontiacs Halo car is worth more than the Vette's 400HP LS2???? What was the Trans Am worthy of then? UMMM let me clue you in. It was worth the same base Corvette motor detuned by 25hp. I think Pontiac is damn lucky it got the exact same base Corvette motor, and I beleive the only reason they did that was to save some face and try to turn around a sales flop.
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Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Originally Posted by GN1270
Pontiacs Halo car is worth more than the Vette's 400HP LS2????
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Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Originally Posted by GN1270
I think Pontiac is damn lucky it got the exact same base Corvette motor, and I beleive the only reason they did that was to save some face and try to turn around a sales flop.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
As it has been addressed in past threads...
The GTO, in upper trim levels were as much as a base Vette. And with Pontiac going up-market, in a way, they will show it in price and performance.
Rumor is that the 6.2 V8 will make it into production with the RPO code of LS3.
So, for thoes keeping score at home
LS1- 5.7 Gen III V8
LS2- 6.0 Gen IV V8
LS3- 6.2 Gen IV V8
LS4- 5.3 Gen IV V8
LS5- nothing
LS6- 5.7 Gen III V8
LS7- 6.3/4 or 7.0 Gen IV V8 ???
The GTO, in upper trim levels were as much as a base Vette. And with Pontiac going up-market, in a way, they will show it in price and performance.
Rumor is that the 6.2 V8 will make it into production with the RPO code of LS3.
So, for thoes keeping score at home
LS1- 5.7 Gen III V8
LS2- 6.0 Gen IV V8
LS3- 6.2 Gen IV V8
LS4- 5.3 Gen IV V8
LS5- nothing
LS6- 5.7 Gen III V8
LS7- 6.3/4 or 7.0 Gen IV V8 ???
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Posts: 361
From: Connecticut
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
How about we give the GTO what it deserves. An LS2 with a detuned cam making 375 HP, and make the Judge 400hp. That is what it deserves. There were 2 LS1's and the WS-6 or the SS had less hp than the base Vette motor and they were both special addition f-bodies.
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Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: IS the LS7 GTO Judge/whatever a sure thing?
Originally Posted by GN1270
How about we give the GTO what it deserves. An LS2 with a detuned cam making 375 HP, and make the Judge 400hp. That is what it deserves. There were 2 LS1's and the WS-6 or the SS had less hp than the base Vette motor and they were both special addition f-bodies.
