Both vehicles have utility. I have a pickup that is very useful and would be replaced by the Lightning which would be equally useful. And I had a '95 LT1 Caprice(wrecked and gone) that I need to replace with a practical 4 seater car, Cobra or GTO.

So yes within the parameters of replacing a current vehicle with something of equal utility, I want the 500hp for the least money.

I have no use for a 2 seater sports car unless they sell the next Z06 for $29999.

 

Is that gonna be about where the next lightning falls in?

 

I think the L will be around the high 30s. I was expecting the Cobra and LS7 GTO to be low 40s.

Like I said, I'm willing to pay more for a useful vehicle.

 

The reason you can't put the LS7 into more vehicles is because who would pay $60k for a CTSV or a ZO7 when you can buy the same motor in the GTO for $20k + less. Its a cream of the crop motor that you put in your cream of the crop cars. i will be trading in my 04 CTSV for the 06 if it has this motor, but I have not seen any official announcement that it is going in the V. There were rumors about an $80k super V and the rumors also say the regular V will only get the LS2. If this is so my Caddy days were short lived. i'm not paying $20k + more for an 06V over the GTO, and I do not like the GTO styling, so I will then look elsewhere. I hope GM does the right thing.

 

I could see the GTO with an LS7 @ 500hp topping $42,000... maybe $45,000.

That's the whole point. Put the big-gun engine and drivetrain in the car and you don't have to put lots of money on the hood and can charge a premium...

So maybe the "Judge" doesn't get the LS7... maybe it gets a 450hp LS2 instead. The point of the exercise is to flex your powertrain muscles some and use the economy of scale advantages GM has to bury everyone else.

I think the true impediments to the exercise are:

1) Certification. It takes money to certify a powertrain and for some reason there isn't a better way to distribute the load... every platform seems to have to carry it individually. Some smart guy at GM needs to figure out a way to lower these costs.

2) Drivetrain durability. Well... what modern automatic do you actually put behind a 500hp motor in the GM lineup? The 4L80E and Allison are boat anchors. Will the 4L65 survive? Will the T-56 survive in a car or truck that is much heavier than a Corvette? Does the SSR have a beefy enough rear end to take it?


A good friend once mentioned that the theoretical next-generation Camaro would need to be designed to handle 500hp. Others thought he was crazy. I think he might have shot too low...


Sun Tzu said:

"Now an army can be likened to a body of water. Whereas water seeks out the low places and avoid the high places, so too an army seeks out an enemy's weaknesses and avoids his strengths.

Business is very much the same as warfare.


The LSx family of motors is a gigantic, raging, incredible amazing success. I'd start throwing them in everything I possibly could, at the maximum horsepower levels that could possibly be managed.

Trucks don't have to worry about gas-guzzler taxes and the cars in question would be so low volume as to not negatively effect the CAFE numbers too badly. If they do... sell a few more Cobalts.

 

I can understand to a point the absence of an LS6 in the f-bods, but the GTO is higher on the totem pole than an F-Bod. Im trying to figure out why (by yours and other peoples standards) the GTO is not considered an upscale car. For crying out loud, they were shooting for BMW quality interior and handling. AFAIK they achieved that didnt they? I know they did at least when it comes to the interior. So I guess BMW quality interior and handling isnt upscale enough!?!?!? Another thing im not quite understanding is why everyone is complaining about the GTO having an LS7 40k or whatever lower-than-zo6/ctsv price it may be. The muscle car era was all about over-done engines in plain-jane cars. There was a reason for that. People want to go fast for cheap. (duh.) IMHO there is no way id spend the extra 20k on a zo6 just for handling and lightweight. Id much rather save my money (assuming I had that kind of $), add a few lbs, and actually have a backseat...im sure the GTO would handle plenty good enough for my tastes with some decent rubber on all four corners. GM should also take notice that other companies like DCX and ford are trying to build fast cars for cheap. In the dodge lineup all I have to do is point at the srt-4. ford is going a similar route with the mustang gt.

Also, I just remembered something that frustrated both my parents when buying vehicles. Package Deals. Not anything specific, it just seems that GM abuses these. For example, my mothers envoy: you couldnt get the advanced stereo, power seats, etc. etc. without getting leather. you cant do it vise versa either. Stupid. I like choosing my options individually, as do most people. I understand this drives production cost up, but in the end I think it comes out better for the customer. I consider the corvette to be a similar situation as the envoy's optioning. You have to go all out and get a vette or dont go at all. And whats funny is putting an LS7 in a corvette doesnt even violate that so-called corvette rule.

In conclusion I think GM needs to grow a pair.

/rant

 

The CTSv is threatened by an LS7 GTO, but not the Z06. Two totally different cars and the GTO will never come close to the Z06 in any performance measure.

So assuming a $45K GTO and a $60K CTSv, why would someone pay $15K more for a CTSv over a GTO? Luxury? Caddy's magnetic suspension technology? Even bigger Brembos than the GTO? Bigger wheels and even FATTER rubber? Heated and cooled reclining rear seats? I dunno maybe the Caddy gets all the goo gaw gadgets that only Caddy's have. But I don't think that GM should cut off the third leg of it's current performance trio from the LS7.

 

You have 400 hp in a GTO now. Whats your point? That is not enough? It has to have the most powerful motor in the fleet? Can it handle that much power? will they have to beef the driveline and add even more weight to an already heavy car and still try to sell it even though they cannot give away 350HP versions of the same car? GM had ***** when they brought the GTO over hear in the first place and they got their ***** chopped off by all those people who said they would buy one and almost nobody did. So what does GM do? They deceide to listen to their customers and add hood scoops, split the dual exhaust and put in a 400hp motor. Now that is not good enuff for some. It needs the 500HP LS7. I don't think anyone will pay $45k for a Judge, well maybe not enuff to make it profitable, but I don't see a GTO in your sig, so you tell me who needs to grow a set . Its easy to tell others how to spend their money. Do you think GM wants to **** off ZO6 and CTSV owners spending $50k+ to please a couple of GTO owners? Remember, most of the cream of the crop motors in muscle cars back in the day, were private sales to race teams and had an extremely low build #.

 

damn..don't know how to quote w/ this new set up..anyways.......

The reason why you didn't see the LS6 in an f-body is the same reason you will not see an LS7 in a GTO. You do not upset or devalue your high end customers and their cars by putting the same motor in less expensive cars. People, especially performance oriented people, know that a motor is one if not the main thing that makes their car what it is.

Oh and last I checked my V had no magnetic ride suspension, and had 18" wheels like the GTO with problably the same size tire if not less. The V has small wheel wells and they are talking bigger fender flares to fit bigger meat if the LS7 goes into it (as pictured in the LS7 V that was tested on Neurbergring sp.) My seats heat, but do not cool, upgrading the brakes wouldn't cost that much more (the GTO's brakes aren't worthless) and the Vette has more options than the V for less. Hell, My 03 Silverado has every option my caddy has except the DVD/NAV and i'm sure it will get that option soon. Sure the V will outhandle the GTO, but its at most levels where the common driver couldn't tell the difference even on a race track.

I think GM will wait to see how many 350hp versions of the car they can sell at $26k (yes i have seen them advertised on a couple of boards for that little) before someone would even dare bring up using the LS7 in it at a boardroom meeting. Frankly I think the 400hp hood scoop, split exhaust version is the GTO's last stand. If they can't sell it after they have addressed all the complaints people had, they will never sell that car.

 

You may be right. Ironically if the '05 GTO is as big a flop as the '04, I may find a $26K LS2 GTO useful enough to buy this time next year.

 

Because it's a Cadillac.

And if that isn't enough reason, GM needs to keep polishing Cadillac's image until it is.

 

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the Corvette Grand Sport Engine used in an F-Body in a select few cars? Corvette owners have been 'devalued' (if you can even call it that ) in the past. why cant they be 'devalued' again? Also, why does it matter if its less expensive? GM was going for BMW quality. did they forget about that?

Ironic how thats my exact point. The GTO is a 'performance orientated' car in every aspect. And Im pretty sure most GTO buyers are 'performance orientated people' being that quite a few of them post on performance orientated message boards like you and I.


Ok, the '04 arent selling well. That might be because most GTO customers are smart enough to realize that the '05 is going to have 50hp more for almost the same dealer gouged price. And then there are the people who know some GTO history [but not enough] and are expecting 'The Judge' to come out with something like... an LS7 maybe?

I dont think most people who said they would buy one were expecting it to be a grand prix look alike. I personally dont have a problem with the original styling, but i think we can agree a lot of people do/did.

Im a college student using examples of my parents new vehicle purchasing experiences. what do you expect? Most will agree that saving up and buying a nice 95 Z at 17 years old is pretty impressive. I am in college for a reason though, to get to that point where I can buy something nice like an LS7 GTO. (yes, i realize the LS7 will probably be outdated by then)

 

The Camaro only got the LT4 AFTER the Vette had moved on to the LS1:

Grand Sport Corvette: 1996
LT4 SS Camaro: 1997

Oh yeah, and there were very few made (otherwise I'd have one).

 

you got me there

 

We're not talking about the regular Vette, this is the ZO6's motor. Do you think it would have been wise for GM to stick The ZR1 motor in a camaro? The motor made that car, as did the LS6 make the C5 ZO6 and the V.

Oh, and the GTO NEVER sold well. Not even on day 1 well before a 400hp version was built, and Everyone knew what a Monaro looked like.

Yes GTO owners are performance oriented and they are getting what they pay for. That is why no LS7 will see a GTO until the ZO6 has moved on. You have the same HP as the new standard Vette, why would the GTO deserve more?