After reading your response for a 2nd time, I picked up on something interesting to me... perception of the vehicle .

Now, I'm sure you are a car nut like the rest of us, or you wouldn't spend time here. So, just by 'one of our own' saying that you assumed the Stang had superior interior quality and useable back seat room without even looking into it says something about the lack of information/marketing being put out by GM about the Camaro (and Firebird), in my eyes anyway.

 

Its a name dude, and theirs at that. If they want to make a Ford Festiva lookalike and call it GTO, it's their perogative. But lucky for us, a Monaro is an AWESOME car. It's just hard for younger guys like me to understand your passion for 3 letters, like they are holy or something. If GM can use their old brand names to help sell more cars, then by golly that's what they should do.

You know I used to love my Transformers toys from the 80's... they looked like real cars in auto mode and cool robots when they were transformed. Today's Transformers look gay, and plasticy, most change into animals (wtf?!). I'm not gonna complain because they are still called Transformers though.

You gotta choose your battles, fight what's worth fighting for. Being upset that the GTO badge is being put on an incredible, powerful, 'semi-import' car is simply mind boggling.

Peace,
Dreamaster

 

Ah, there-in lies the root of the problem here...........I'd venture a guess that the majority of the people who think the "cons" to this arguement are over-reacting....are people of your age....not a flame mind you, but the reality of a generation unconnected to the history that made certian marqees legends.

You obviously can't understand the feeling of growing up when these cars ruled the streets. Let's not forget, however, that in fact the GTO was considered by many to be the first 'musclecar'. Sure there were the Z11 Impala's, Big block aluminum fendered super stock Moopars, but the GTO was one of the first mass produced high horsepower cars for the masses.

Born in 1957, I spent my formative years watching these cars evolve into the horsepower warriors that made a young boys'heart race and the girls clamor to be with the guy who had the fastest car.

Obviously Pontiac is trying to re-live that magical time by using the GTO name on an otherwise worthy automobile.........the ONLY argument we have is the weak execution of the design. When we heard the GTO was returning on such a great (we're told) performance car, we got excited......only to be shown a sketch of a forgettable fascia lacking the key design features that make it look like a "real" GTO......at least to us old farts.....LOL!

Please understand we truly are excited to be living in a second round of the horsepower wars......(just give us a little more of the look we knew) and let the games begin!!

 

So here sit a bunch of aussies proud of their monaro, and helpless to do anything about the name calling and jeering that goes on, we had no say either, we didn't want it to be called GTO we are quite happy with Monaro which was also a 60-70 muscle car in OZ, obviously GM N/A saw fit to give it this name, they asked the aussie monaro designer to give it pontiac charcter and to conform to the rest of the pontiac family, with X amount of $$$$ so be it, for the budget this was all that could be done.

To all that have a problem with it being called GTO, I fully understand but unfortunately what can be done about it now? GM N/A has already signed and sealed the deal. So will you all keep a strong dislike to this vehicle because of the name and have it fail miserebly?

GM Upper management are silly... they would have used the GTO name in anycase and possibly on an even lamer FWD vehicle, they have already proven they don't give a sh*t about revered muscle car names of the past.

The only positive out of this thing is that its an awesome rear wheel drive V8 coupe with all the goods to make it a true modern muscle car.

[This message has been edited by Ude-lose (edited July 13, 2002).]

 

But you need to understand......we DON'T hate the car.....just the opposite! We simply wanted it to "be" a GTO and LOOK like one too!

We really do hope it is very sucsessful! All the more reason to have our 5th gen return........we're just scared to death that GM will put the nameplate on a car that doesn't even look like a Camaro.....believe it or not, this is REALLY important....at least to some of us it is......

 

I think its very important too. and I believe with a ground up vehicle YES it should have cues... but in this Monaro/GTO situation what can be done now... its too late, the car is a quick fix to a problem that cant be solved overnight... so do we continue to frown apon this Aussie car because of the name that GM chose or do we accept it and hope production shifts to the US and the next gen has even more cue from the past...

 

We've already discussed this...

And somewhere a few weeks ago I posted pics of the '65 Pontiac lineup, every car looked the same.

The problem is quite simple actually... and I see both sides...

I've come to the conclusion that some of you guys want a more retro GTO... Nothing wrong with that, heck I photoshopped that GM pic just changing the nose (no scoops, hood tach, or spoiler... just changed what GM changed from the Monaro) and you guys liked it more. It would be cool if they did that...

But what GM is doing is using its current Pontiac lineup for the GTO's appearance... and to me there is nothing wrong with that either! Previous GTOs looked just like other Pontiacs of their time, and none were "retro". This new GTO, in a way, is true to what GTOs were, and looking at the entire 2004 Pontiac lineup, it will be a true GTO... not a disgrace to the GTO name.

Those are the 2 ideas... make it look like an older GTO, or make it look like a current GTO.

I want changes to the Monaro to be minimal... I don't want a different hood, spoiler, fenders, etc. I want the cost to be cheap, and any improvements to be done UNDER THE HOOD.

Would I rather have a GTO more like the pic I edited? Sure, it looks cool. I'm sure everyone else would too. But I'm more concerned with the GTO's performance, and GM could have made the GTO butt ugly... so I'm fine with the GTO pic they released.

------------------
FormulaV8.com · 1994 Formula · A4 · 3.23
13.45 @ 102.5 MPH w/ 1.9 60' | 267 rwhp | 307 tq/lbs | 3535 lbs
"I know for a fact he is NOT an Easter bunny"

 

I find that hard to believe. I'm in the group you speak of - IE, thinking perhaps some folks are over-reacting to calling this car a GTO. HOWEVER, I'm over 40 years old, and spent my formative years helping my brother soup up and shine his 57 Chevy, then his 64 Impala SS, and riding in my bro-in-law's bright orange GTX, and working with my brother to drop a 350-4BBL into my 1970 Chevelle. I loved the old GTO's... even lost a race to a 1967 Goat on my motorcycle once (MUCH younger and more foolish then). But compare their actual performance to that of the new GTO... believe me it deserves the name.

 

Boy, you just summed up my feelings on this perfectly!

 

stevil - agree with you on the priorities thing. I would (assuming I had to choose) rather have a 350+ HP LS1 variant in the new GTO than a trick new spoiler or hood. Trim items are easy to add if need be.

BTW saw your web site, looks pretty cool. What color is your Formula?

 

Its like I see what every1 is saying also but come on. Its returning from how many years and with no visual cues at all from the car its representing. It would be nice. Some looks from them but a new design also.

 

Pontiac has BMW as the car they want to be. They are also moving away from body cladding, which means non functional scoops, spoilers, and other body clutter. They are also going to become well equipted, highly detail oriented cars. GTO represents the direction they intend to go.

Now that I've seen more than a few Monaros, ridden in them & got to briefly drive one, I can honestly say that not only do they fit the bill, after being in one & driving one, if Holden doesn't ruin the quality when they switch interior materials (to tolerate sub-zero tempreatures) current Grand Prixs are going to feel alot like junk.

 

That about sums it up, don't it? I DO respect your opinion about this car, along with everyone else's. This GTO may well make a new name for itself that will become legendary to the guys that don't remeber the original ones being everyday street warriors. But was this a "lucky shot" for GM or no? HuJass has an issue with the GP... IMPALA64 has an issue with the Impy SS... I could go on and on about Malibus, Novas, etc. Just to say - "Hey, I know where you guys are coming from..." is all that's needed in a friendly debate. Nobody says we all have to agree 100%, especially on things that are opinionated or have individual significance (like my experiences with GTOs of yore). BTW, GM could have saved the tooling costs of pressing and plating new GTO badges if they had just left the Monaro ones on it, and I wouldn't have anything to "whine" about.

Friend, you need help. Why do you keep throwing personal offenses at me? Have I struck a nerve or something? Are you taking out frustrations on me becaue I choose to own Fords instead of what you own? You have never seen a single car that I own - but now I'm gonna lose every race to an Fbody? wow. You'd be blown away if you knew how many friends I have with Fbods. Maybe we are just a different breed of car guys than you, I don't know.

1)You don't have to embrace me or my ideas, but respect is a mature thing guy.
2)You admit that some names have been "weakened", then give GM your approval of such activities. I hope your F5 is different than everybody else's... think about it.
3)YES - I do think the current Camaro is a descendent(shadow?) of its ancestors because it is still a musclecar, with 2 doors, 4 seats, V8's and base engines, performs great, and most importantly - it has had the name CAMARO on the fenders now for 35 years continuously.

One last word of advise... don't ever think you have the fastest thing around - whether it's old or new - because someone DOES have you beat. LOVE MUSCLECARS FOR WHAT THEY ARE - NOT JUST WHAT THEY CAN DO. You'll find a lot more fun in life.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 14, 2002).]

 

AMEN. But since they (GM) decided to do a new front nose, wouldn't it have been nice to offer 2 or 3 variations to some focus groups for feedback before making the tooling? Groups like this forum? After all, changing the nose IS changing the nose - a plastic skin is a plastic skin - no matter what it changed to, and relative costs would be the same except for the focus group work.

I see both sides too, HONEST I DO. But I still wish they had given the public (especially the enthusiasts) more of an opportunity for input into the car, given the resurrection of the name.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 14, 2002).]

 

You bloody-well right! How bizarre that we share the same feelings at this point, but due to different reasons! I maintain that you have had a great car in the Monaro from the beginning - why change it?

Wouldn't it be just as cool for Pontiac to get a "new" car with all this performance and refinement regardless of it's name? The car can define ITSELF and make it's OWN legacy here. Dodge is making a new legend with the Viper. The Intrepid is doing good too... and with NEW names, not "borrowed" ones like SuperBee or Charger.

I think being from Oz, it would be hard to grasp what the GTO name conjures up here when said, just like it is hard for me to imagine what Monaro or Falcon means to an Aussie. I only know what I can read/hear from down there. But I respect that those cars are held in high regard by those who know them, and wouldn't want to screw them up by misusing them.

And I agree with you on the comment about "what we could have ended up with". CERTAINLY it could have been a lot worse. At least maybe we here in the states will be exposed to a more refined application of V8 power instead of I6's or V6's (BMer or Benz anyone?). BUT, don't forget about the CTSi and LS5.0MOD cars coming out soon - they may suprise us all up here in Uncle Sam's house with their performance and refinements. And those cars are more in line with the refinement/costs of this GTO than musclecars like the Mustang or Camaro.

Ude, I appreciate the dilemma for the Aussies and the issues re: their good work.
Thanks for the cool post.
I'm hearin' ya.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 14, 2002).]