ForYourMalice

Some see different avenues for "standing up for Americans".

After seeing how well the 700 billion dollars are going..

We have no idea how the money was used for the financial markets. Credit is as tight as Al Gore's *** on a icy cold morning. Banks are laying their drones off left and right. Companies like AIG burned through all of their "bailout" and are still failing.

SO now we are to believe that bailing out GM will work? Based on WHAT? Nobody is buying their cars now and nobody will be buying their cars in the near future, especially after all of this glowing press. So why are we prolonging the bankruptcy when we know they will go down in flames no matter what?

I have nothing against self proclaimed "glass half full" types - but there comes a point when the glass should be used to douse a flame instead of fueling it with mounds of cash. Otherwise, these people can hold on to their delusional patriotic GM beliefs, "but they'll be holding on to them all the way to the bottom."

Its a bitter pill people.... SWALLOW IT.

formula79

I have always subscribed that GM is like Social Security...in that it was simply gonna gail unless a big "adjustment" is made somewhere. I mean when you have a company with 100,000 employees trying to support a million retirees...it DOES NOT work. It is simply a structural issue. People whine.."Well it's GM's fault for loosing market share"...but the fact of the matter is there are simply more car companies out there to take a peice of the pie. These companies don't have the legacy costs of GM, and can produce cars cheaper.

While fixing Social Security has been pushed off, GM's day is here...and it needs to be structurally adjusted.

HuJass

Why?
BECAUSE IT WON"T WORK!!! Why can't you people get that thru your skulls.
NOBODY will buy a car from a bankrupt car company. They will NOT be able to get DIP financing. Bankruptcy will be the quickest route to Chapter 7 liquidation.

If you believe that BK will work, that means that you want to see the Big 3 go away. And that means that you want to see up to 3 million people out of a job and this country in a depression.

You better pray to God that doesn't happen, because a lot of you will find yourselves out of your homes and in a soup kitchen.

CaminoLS6

Precisely.

R377

You should do some more research on that point. It absolutely was not a giveway. In most cases the government took preferred shares in the banks that they helped, and also had options and warrants to purchase additional common stock at somewhat favourable prices. If the banks survive and their share prices appreciate, the treasury can expect to make a profit on the deals. In fact, Warren Buffet even stated that he would have loved to been able to broker deals similar to what treasury was able to negotiate.

Regarding the possibility of bankruptcy for GM, I wonder if much of the damage has already started to happen. We all know that many buyers will not consider purchasing a car from a bankrupt company. With all the news coverage this auto industry bailout has received, you have to believe that most potential car buyers are aware of GM's situation and will start crossing them off their list. That being the case, maybe it's better that GM go bankrupt and have the opportunity to do the serious restructuring that it needs to do.

Kris93/95Z28

Is this a new number or a typo? Last I knew, I thought it was 34 Billion.

CaminoLS6

Chapter 11, will equal Chapter7, will equal massive unemployment, will equal depression, will equal a permanent reduction in the American standard of living.

And cost the taxpayers $170 Billion at the outset.

Not supporting this industry is a one-way ticket to third world status for us all.

guionM

Since I can't write what I really feel about your post, I'll just leave my thoughts at the fact I find in your post shows a cluelessness that's deafening.

The exact issue was that 2 Senators wanted an exact date of parity between UAW plants and the import plants in their states. Even though the costs are close, this is something that simply can not be nailed in this unpredictable economic enviroment. If the economy tanks farther and a factory needs to lay off people (which GM just announced they have to do to 20 plants) the parity potential is completely out the window. If the stated deadline wasn't met (those good senators demanded March), all money could be taken back and loans withdrawn and the company would be federally mandated to seek bankruptcy..... exactly what Senator Shelby has advocated all along.

This impossible request was a poison pill to derail the entire bill or at least force automakers to seek bankruptcy regardless as to what happens.

Of course, with you "UAW is the complete problem" people, you'd go for the sound bite instead of (God forbid!) actually finding out what really happened.

I guess that would require actually thinking and making an effort to find out something on your own!

My cynical opinion:

Cerberus needs to spruce up Chrysler in order to dump it to someone else.

However, with the conditions the government is attaching to any loans (including a loan overseer), Cerberus is going to be forced to make Chrysler viable and won't be able to simply dump it on someone else or dismantle Chrysler.

IMO, the conditions of getting federally backed loans will save Chrysler more than the money itself will.



There's so much wrong with your post, I don't know where to start.

First, the big 3 were required to come up with plans to the congress for returning to profitability. They did, congress was impressed enough that both the House, 52 Senators, and the White House all approved. A small group of obstructionist senators who have heavy import presence in their states killed the bill.

Wall Street didn't offer a plan, an idea, or even crayon drawings on construction paper. They basically said "Give us money or else". And we trusted them to do the right thing. They didn't.

No one is advocating the "Baling Out" of anyone. It is a federally backed loan, in which the government is essentially co-signing a loan, much like many parents have done for a teenager at one point or another. However, in this case, forcing car makers to submit detailed plans and have a overseer riding shotgun with monthly reports pretty much gurantees good use of money. Something that didn't happen on Wall Street.

You seem to be one of those people who also don't really understand or refuses to understand what's at stake here.

At the very least, someone who actually posts on a Camaro site would be the last person who'd want to see GM disintegrate.

Am I wrong, here?

I can't argue with your basic premise. But it's not just retirees. Look at how many suppliers GM is financially responsible for, even though they aren't running the company. Delphi ring a bell?

For all intents and purposes, the UAW side of it has been solved. They have retreated to just the hands on aspect of making vehicles and components, they are running retiree health care at a fixed price for the car makers instead of the makers themselves paying for a highly generous system. Wages have been cut except for those who have been with the carmaker for years. GM already is seeing savings from the changes, and in another year or so will see labor savings start becoming quite huge.

The issue comes back to where it always does. Bureaucracy. Having 1 person running all of GM's auto show displays instead of at least the needed 3, shutting down escalators after business hours, and taking half the lightbulbs out of factories isn't streamlining the company. Neither is creating a system that gets a car from idea to showroom in 18 months while simply deciding on it can take years, and coordinating it with factories takes even more years.

The labor cost of a car is less than 10%. It's the system that creates it that's the problem with GM.

guionM

I will give that you are correct about Wall Street.

However, what does still stand is that the money that went to loan institutions had no strings attached, had no oversight, and the heads of those companies did not have to submit plans for recovery. While we have prefered shares in those institutions as taxpayers, not only can we not get loans from those institutions and see raised fees, if those institutions go down, the taxpayer is left with a gapping crater where the treasury used to be.

On GM, you are dead accurate. GM's sales are down, what? 48%?

Credit snapped shut at the start of October. The drop in sales should be the same for both October & November. It is at Ford.

It isn't, and the difference can reasonably be traced to just simply the talk of bankruptcy at GM.

Wait till GM actually has to file.

Just like those people who refused to believe that a drop in stocks were the start of a serious economic crisis, those same people will suddenly quiet up and change the subject. The same people are saying "suck it up" or that bankruptcy is a good option today regarding GM .

I won't publically call you out, but yes... I still remember you.


EDIT:
(no I'm not refering to you R377 or any of the "old timers"... just a certain individual)

Caps94ZODG

ohh I know what your talking about guion,

I have all the guys I work with on my way of thinking that anything short of supporting your home country were F#(T!
But this is preaching to the people that own american and buy american.
The problem is the rest of the sheep in this country do not get it dont care or just plain morons.

Sometimes when I am watching Cspan or the mid day news I want to just say fine..You can not fight stupidity! Like you I have contacted all my reps..and so many should here:
http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html

please select your state and email them. If this is any time to do something it is now. You know we all been going back and forth on issues of what ifs for the last few years and now the time is here. And guess what the naysayers who said it would not matter well does it now? Still dont get it? Wait till GM goes under and then you will see.

It just sickesn me that our goverment is this clueless. It is sad and the people that follow this BS. Just makes me want to say fine..GM close your doors..see if Toyota honda nissan stick around in a depression riddled U.S.???
THEY WILL LEAVE...

I will say this now Japan has beat us..it took them 50 years but they got thier win..they beat us theway they knew they could. And we let them.

I wish I could go back in time and make a speach right after the sigining of the end of the war with Japan that in 50 years time they would own our auto industry. I would be laughed out of the building..no one is laughing now..
We as a country have to re evaluate who we are. Our industry our companies and our self worth. We as a country SOLD OUT. I have said my peice over the years in here. I do not need to say more. But like the OP I am getting pissed off over this stupidity of our "leaders"

HuJass

A couple of issues the UAW had with the proposal:
1) southern repubs wanted parity with their transplant plants; UAW could not agree to that not knowing what the REAL & TRUE wages and benefits of ALL those plants were; repubs not willing to give time to figure that out

2) southern repubs singled out the UAW for cuts. Corker gave lip service to the bondholders taking a cut, but that was the extent of that. Nobody else required to come to the table for a haircut.


And if you don't think the southern repubs turned this into an ideological/political battle, then just look at the e-mail memo that was released today. This memo was to all the repubs and it basically said that this was their first shot at shutting down the democrats and that if they stuck together, they could win.


And why did no repubs demand workers in the banking & financial industries take a large pay cut immediately in return for their bail-out?


It is clearer to me by the minute that the repubs are trying to punish the unions and the working class. Probably for the lack of political support.
And you can't tell me different.

Caps94ZODG

ohh its all about republicans vs. democrats and publically calling one another out on how bad they are doing. Just sick how they are playing with american lives like this. when they are sitting in thier masions on cold nights not worring about thier next paycheck.

My Red 93Z-28

Guy, whatever you do, don't go into the lounge and read T/A Bob's proposal on how to fix the auto industry...you just might have a heart attack

teal98

I wouldn't try. Every party (party used in generic sense -- maybe 'group' would be a better word) has an agenda here, and some want their pound of flesh.

Right now, it looks like it's up to the Bush administration. GM and the UAW will have to accept their terms or bankruptcy, it looks like. Whether they're fair or not. Hopefully they are, but what if they're not? Which would you choose? Accept unfair terms or lose GM?

I'd go for the unfair terms on the principle of "live to fight again another day". There'll be a new president and congress where there will be chances to put things right. But only if there's a company left.

SSbaby

I'd say that every individual in Congress has an agenda. It's not a vote for what is best for the country but a fragmented ideology that fails to take into consideration the savage aftereffects an additional 3 million unemployed would have on North America's economy.

That Congressman who wants Detroit to die while his state is thriving with foreign owned auto brands is evidence of the selfish attitude of many in Congress. He doesn't support the auto industry per se, he just wants what's best for his state... his pockets and ego.