If there is a 5th gen, will it be a loser?
07-30-2002, 12:26 AM
#1
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If there is a 5th gen, will it be a loser?
What I mean is, all of it's potential competitors seem to be very focused on bringing out segment busting performance products.
And they don't seem to have any problems letting us know it.
If there is a 5th gen will it be able to compete or will it be another "thrown together" package developed at the eleventh hour?
Or is it possible that GM will actually get it right? Is it possible that they will actually use this time wisely to evaluate, benchmark and surpass their competition with a world class 5th gen.
I sure hope that it is the latter, but is GM even capable of that? That would require an exponential leap frog from where they left off.
Would GM really get that focused on a "mere" Camaro?
And they don't seem to have any problems letting us know it.
If there is a 5th gen will it be able to compete or will it be another "thrown together" package developed at the eleventh hour?
Or is it possible that GM will actually get it right? Is it possible that they will actually use this time wisely to evaluate, benchmark and surpass their competition with a world class 5th gen.
I sure hope that it is the latter, but is GM even capable of that? That would require an exponential leap frog from where they left off.
Would GM really get that focused on a "mere" Camaro?
07-30-2002, 07:30 AM
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Well, after all the Ruess stuff, I got to thinking about some of the other 'prophecies' that are supposed to come true soon...
1) We are supposed to see a Camaro concept before or slightly after the last 4th gen is produced. We know there are going to be a few Chevy RWD concepts... I'm thinking one should be a Camaro.
2) We heard once in a while that once St. Therese is shut down, and the last of the 4th gen is built, GM may be more willing to talk for whatever reason... we'll see on that one.
Either way, even though a Camaro is not 'approved' , who's to say they haven't been working on one for a long time? Or at least started and stopped a bunch of times, much like the C5 program. I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll restate it here... Why have we all assumed that if a 5th gen Camaro was to be built all the work would have had to have started so recently... I mean, potentially, they could have started basics on a 5th gen back in 1995-96 and shelved it a few times... who knows? Remember the C5 was originally planned as a 1993 model, but the assembly plant conditions and contracts allowed the C4 to continue until the C5 was ready... a luxury that Camaro does not have.
Basically... it may be further along than we think. (Not that that is an excuse though... becuase I still think we should be looking at an all-new 2003 Camaro & Firebird.)
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 30, 2002).]
1) We are supposed to see a Camaro concept before or slightly after the last 4th gen is produced. We know there are going to be a few Chevy RWD concepts... I'm thinking one should be a Camaro.
2) We heard once in a while that once St. Therese is shut down, and the last of the 4th gen is built, GM may be more willing to talk for whatever reason... we'll see on that one.
Either way, even though a Camaro is not 'approved' , who's to say they haven't been working on one for a long time? Or at least started and stopped a bunch of times, much like the C5 program. I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll restate it here... Why have we all assumed that if a 5th gen Camaro was to be built all the work would have had to have started so recently... I mean, potentially, they could have started basics on a 5th gen back in 1995-96 and shelved it a few times... who knows? Remember the C5 was originally planned as a 1993 model, but the assembly plant conditions and contracts allowed the C4 to continue until the C5 was ready... a luxury that Camaro does not have.
Basically... it may be further along than we think. (Not that that is an excuse though... becuase I still think we should be looking at an all-new 2003 Camaro & Firebird.)
[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited July 30, 2002).]
07-30-2002, 09:15 AM
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Undoubtedly, some work has been done on a future Camaro. Just like some work was done on GM80, in the eighties, and work on a whole bunch of other stuff we'll never know about.
I suppose you can compare this to the C5...which also was a "fringe" program with little corporate support. But the C5 had a hard core of courageous supporters, including Chevy gm, Jim Perkins,(when gms actually wielded some power at GM), who put their careers on the line to make it happen. Perkins probably lost his job over it.
Who will be courageous enough to pick up the flag for Camaro....and how good of a job can they do in such an environment?
I'd like to see GM as commited to the Camaro as Ford is to the Mustang, or Nissan is to the 350Z, or.....(insert manufacturer here)...
One thing that you can bet on, is this: The fact that we have no replacement or even talk of a replacement for Camaro...cannot be an indication that things are going smoothly.
I suppose you can compare this to the C5...which also was a "fringe" program with little corporate support. But the C5 had a hard core of courageous supporters, including Chevy gm, Jim Perkins,(when gms actually wielded some power at GM), who put their careers on the line to make it happen. Perkins probably lost his job over it.
Who will be courageous enough to pick up the flag for Camaro....and how good of a job can they do in such an environment?
I'd like to see GM as commited to the Camaro as Ford is to the Mustang, or Nissan is to the 350Z, or.....(insert manufacturer here)...
One thing that you can bet on, is this: The fact that we have no replacement or even talk of a replacement for Camaro...cannot be an indication that things are going smoothly.
07-30-2002, 11:16 AM
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I don't think GM wants to commit on making a 5th gen unless they definantly know whats its going to look, perform, and probably most importantly, market like..
If there is a 5th gen, it would probably be a great car.. of course IF there is one..
If there is a 5th gen, it would probably be a great car.. of course IF there is one..
07-30-2002, 01:25 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
I'd like to see GM as commited to the Camaro as Ford is to the Mustang, or Nissan is to the 350Z, or.....(insert manufacturer here)...</font>
I'd like to see GM as commited to the Camaro as Ford is to the Mustang, or Nissan is to the 350Z, or.....(insert manufacturer here)...</font>
07-30-2002, 01:35 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eric77TA:
GM doesn't have anything ideal in their current platform stable for a Camaro replacement. </font>
GM doesn't have anything ideal in their current platform stable for a Camaro replacement. </font>
07-30-2002, 01:55 PM
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I think that they can do it, if they get the styling right both outside and inside, I know they will give us a powerful enough engine to beath mustangs and other cars out there stock for stock. atleast, because you know that if a ricer spends 10G on their car, it could beat our "slow *** low tech camaros" 
Anyways, they spent 8 years on the C-5 because C-4's werent selling well so GM was considering totally killing the corvette, but the general was nice engough to just cut their financing throughout the years. The Product: the best selling Corvette ever. It was perfectly styled, and done perfectly in general. They spent their time on it and look at the finished product, it sells as fast as they can make them, they need to do that with the Camaro. The only difference is is that vette fans still had a vette that they could get or atleast see in the showroom floors which we dont. Another thing, GM new about the supras and nsx's and 300zx's coming over here and were threatening vette fans to go to japanese cars because those cars were in the same league as the corvettes pricewise and performance wise. Which is how it is now, with the new supra, 350Z, RX-8, coming into our market. Will GM respond? I hope so. Or will GM just let the japanese cars win without even trying to stop them, and leaving mustangs the only american cars in that market? 
God i hope not.
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Anyways, they spent 8 years on the C-5 because C-4's werent selling well so GM was considering totally killing the corvette, but the general was nice engough to just cut their financing throughout the years. The Product: the best selling Corvette ever. It was perfectly styled, and done perfectly in general. They spent their time on it and look at the finished product, it sells as fast as they can make them, they need to do that with the Camaro. The only difference is is that vette fans still had a vette that they could get or atleast see in the showroom floors which we dont. Another thing, GM new about the supras and nsx's and 300zx's coming over here and were threatening vette fans to go to japanese cars because those cars were in the same league as the corvettes pricewise and performance wise. Which is how it is now, with the new supra, 350Z, RX-8, coming into our market. Will GM respond? I hope so. Or will GM just let the japanese cars win without even trying to stop them, and leaving mustangs the only american cars in that market? God i hope not.------------------
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07-30-2002, 02:02 PM
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Only is the top model is a Z28
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07-30-2002, 03:24 PM
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As far as I can tell...a new Camaro is so far down the priority list at GM...that it is not even on the radar screen.
I think if Bob Lutz fast tracked this thing...starting...oh...today...maybe, just maybe..we might see it in 2007.
Our best bet is the next Mustang and the reaction it gets. I hope it blows everyone away and blows the cobwebs out of the GM decision making process.
I think if Bob Lutz fast tracked this thing...starting...oh...today...maybe, just maybe..we might see it in 2007.
Our best bet is the next Mustang and the reaction it gets. I hope it blows everyone away and blows the cobwebs out of the GM decision making process.
07-30-2002, 03:33 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
....and who's fault is that?
</font>
....and who's fault is that?
</font>
07-31-2002, 12:43 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eric77TA:
Sure, it's GMs fault, but the Mustang and 350Z just happen to fit on existing platforms. Notice we had no 350Z until we had a new Skyline/G35 platform for it to go on. Nissan didn't have an appropriate platform for a few years there either.</font>
Sure, it's GMs fault, but the Mustang and 350Z just happen to fit on existing platforms. Notice we had no 350Z until we had a new Skyline/G35 platform for it to go on. Nissan didn't have an appropriate platform for a few years there either.</font>
My point is that GM has literally wasted a whole decade and now must play a big time game of catchup....that is if they can get focused.
07-31-2002, 01:59 PM
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Just a few thoughts. While Bob Lutz was at Chrysler, they became pretty notorious for springing the following year's production cars at NAIAS & LAIAS (in fact, the 2004 New Yorker will debut at the next one).
Earlier this year GM announced it would begin producing RWD cars again. This fall we already know there will be more than a couple of RWD concepts. I've been figuring RWD cars returning to Chevy & Pontiac in '05 as '06s, but does it make any sense that GM would announce a return to RWD over 3 years before it actually shows up in showrooms?
I think there are certain cars (maybe or maybe not including Camaro) that are much farther along than GM is letting on.
Earlier this year GM announced it would begin producing RWD cars again. This fall we already know there will be more than a couple of RWD concepts. I've been figuring RWD cars returning to Chevy & Pontiac in '05 as '06s, but does it make any sense that GM would announce a return to RWD over 3 years before it actually shows up in showrooms?
I think there are certain cars (maybe or maybe not including Camaro) that are much farther along than GM is letting on.