guionM

No, UAW's concern is when a car model moves out of the US. They have no contract or issue with an import as long as it isn't directly replacing another model. Even then, while it might make UAW (and CAW) leaders rattle their sabers, it's not part of any contract they have.

GTO was limited by Elizibeth City's capacity. Holden had to expand their plant and add a 3rd shift just to handle the GTO.

The plant currently is running on just 2 shifts.

A good sales year in Australia is a good sales month in the US.

Of all the models of VE and WMs Holden makes (Statesman, Caprice, Commodore, Lumina, plus exports to Korea, China, South America, South Africa, and Europe), 1 of every 4 cars that roll down the assembly line is currently a US bound G8.

The US is a massive market.

I think the only area we might disagree centers around Oshawa.

I suspect you feel that it has to be made at Oshawa, and if it can't, it won't exist, plus it's nothing more than data on a computer.

Meanwhile, I've been saying that it won't be made at Oshawa, but at Elizebeth City on the VE line, and that it's essentially a done car waiting for the green light.

Other than that, we're pretty much in agreement.

Which is what I posted earlier in this thread.

The Camaro "mule" that was "disguised" as a Commodore was to develop components that would be shared with both cars. Since the chassis was VE (the proportions were not Camaro), they have done the development work, essentially under the radar although they were comissioned to do development work that could be used on a line of Zeta coupes.

That's why I was so stubborn on the prospect of a GTO when others said otherwise.

I get a feeling (and it's just a feeling) that GM is waiting for specifics on new CAFE standards. Although annual figures start in 2010, the Feds haven't established any annual CAFE guidelines yet. No one knows if they are going to start with a big jump, then level out or start small, and build, or break it down equally over 10 years.

Z284ever

Actually, we agree on that as well. There is NO WAY this car will be made at Oshawa - for a number of reasons. The only way we'll see this here is if it's imported by Holden.

CaminoLS6

For now.

Z284ever

For now or forever. This car physically cannot be built at Oshawa. It would be like putting Camrys on the Camaro line.

rlchv70

I think Holden Coupes are a little closer to the Camaro than the Camry.

Can you be more specific about what is incompatible?

Z284ever

Closer but no cigar. I brought this up in greater detail awhile ago.

The Cliff notes version is that the VE/Zeta Holdens don't conform to GMNA's build processes. It would be analogous to GM manufacturing another automakers car at one of it's plants.

The whole reason for Zeta II is to develop a new "refreshed" version of Zeta which conforms to GMNA's assembly bill of process.

Holden's Zetas can only be assembled at it's Elizabeth plant. And GMNA's only Zeta - the Camaro - cannot.

notgetleft

I understand the concept of what you're saying, but i cannot for the life of me fathom how that happened. Seems like incredibly poor decision making or control.

Did this happen because GMNA decided at some point a few years ago that they didn't want the VE/zeta chassis so holden decided to finish up the design to conform to their typical processes? Basically, everyone knew GMNA and holden were different, but GMNA cut holden loose so they no longer cared.

Or is GMNA just run by a bunch of idiots, and holden too narrow minded to communicate that the chassis they were deisgning would never match up to GMNA processes? I mean, holden had been identified as the designers of the new gen RWD chassis for a while now right? How the hell did nobody notice they weren't working on a globally compatible design? Unless as in my first question, GMNA cut the cord at a critical decision process (only to cost themself money and time when they tried to recouple later on)

Or some totally different combination of events?

CaminoLS6

Holden will adopt the Oshawa zeta soon enough, thus my "for now" response.

SharpShooter_SS

If I recall, the differences have to do with assembly processes and methodology. One particular that stands out is how the interiors are handled. Holden does their interior components in-house within the confines of the factory, so to speak and GMNA doesn't - it outsources to a larger degree. If I'm not mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I read that on here a good while ago... anyone able to clarify further?

Z284ever

It's sort of the same deal with Saab's Epsilon and any other Epsilon. There are so many differences with Saab's version that only Saab can build it. That's the reason GM is investing in Epsilon II, so theoretically any Epsilon can be built at any Epsilon plant.



Well, let's see how long Zeta II lasts in NA before we start speculating on if Holden will spend the big bucks retooling for any of that.

rlchv70

Do you have a link to your original post?

So if the Camaro is just a modified version of Zeta that can be built in US plants, why can't they just make the same modifications to the VE coupe so that it can be built in the US?

Camaro and the VE Coupe both have the same components and configuration - 4 wheels, 2 doors, windshield, windows, seats, dash, etc.

I've been to a few assembly plants. I also know some manufacturing engineers. Manufacturing engineers say that if you give them a print, they'll find a way to make it.

The only thing that I can think of that would cause the incompatibility would be the location of fasteners causing them to be inaccesible if the build order is changed. However, the fasteners locations can be tweaked or clearances can be changed so that the build would be possible.

formula79

Alot of it has to do with how sourcing is done. As someone else mentioned...Holden makes a lot of stuff themselves...and what they do not source is generally bought from German suppliers. Look at the G8 interior, and you will see a lot of parts that look like they came straight out a VW.

One other thing that jumped out at me is that Holden builds cars very different than GM NA. For instance to take the dash apart when I put my nav system in my GTO, I had to take out about 80 screws (all of which were exactly the same). If that was a GM-NA dash, it would be clips holding the whole thing togethor...and whatever screws were in there would be completly different from one another.

As for why Commedor and Camaro are different...I think a large part has to do with GM-NA trying to piggy back on the program. Holden was already cruising along with VE's redesign, when GM-NA jumped in. I think what happened is GM-NA jumped in, and realized that way Holden builds cars is completly unacceptable to North American plants. Also keep in mind that VE was Holden's most expensive project ever and ran about $1 Billion dollars. GM realized there was simply not enough time/money to reinvent the way Holden builds cars and include it in the VE which was almost done. So in the end...they essentially took whatever could be used VE, and made that into their own Zeta II...which in theory Holden would pick up on with their next redesign of the Commodore.

CreatiVe2

http://www.motortrend.com/features/a..._60/index.html

jcamere94z28

sweet car.... old article....