Todd80Z28

Yep, that sound takes me back to my childhood like nothing else. Growing up in Western MD/WV, strip mining was HUGE in the early 70s, and I'd sit outside the fire hall downtown with my grandfather, and watch the dump trucks run for hours. The GMCs ran the 8V71 and had that high-pitched rat-tat-tat that sounded like nothing else. I always imagined that they were shouting and angry, trying to haul that load.

Dad's been driving truck for 40+ years, and he *hated* the 2-stroke DDs though. He said the powerband was ridiculously narrow, and that 2-stick shifting trans they usually came with was a PITA. Of course, now he whines about having two cruise control buttons in his Freightliner Coronado.

km9v

The problem w/ "news" stories like this is that they are mostly opinion & not enough fact.

Eric Bryant

From my birth up until I was 13 or so, my dad was the service manager at a local GMC dealer - and this place sold GMC trucks - Generals, Astros, Brigadiers, Top Kicks, and so on. Needless to say, I'm quite fond of that two-stroke DD sound.

There's nothing quite like a "Michigan Special" GMC General with an 8V92, high-floatation front tires, an 8-axle trailer, and a gross weight of 80 tons

My dad left the place right around the time of the White/GMC merger, IIRC, and then that company was divested to Volvo a few years later That building where he worked is now a Honda dealership.

1fastdog

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=xWkHuP...eature=related

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=dVjXwS...eature=related

Mmmmm, Good!

5thgen69camaro

Honestly I thought GM was already making hybrid Metro busses?


Very weird to see you say BAE is Foreign. I worked for the all american "TRACOR" which was bought by "Marconi" (british) making it one of the first foreign owned Govt contractors. Marconi had to distance its British Management from the actual company for National Security issues. BAE is the current company of which TRACOR is a large part of.

Eric Bryant

It's rather interesting that GE plays in all sorts of areas that were abandoned by GM - locomotives, buses, and off-highway equipment (Terex was started by GM).

I got to see a presentation by a GE engineer at an automotive battery conference earlier in the year. The company is very interested in hybrid drive systems, as $4/gallon diesel means that a diesel-electric locomotive can use around $800k of fuel per year! Since that's about the same as the purchase price of the locomotive, it's possible to throw a couple hundred thousand at hybrid powertrains, get a fuel savings of 10-20% (which can work out to be a six-figure number) and present a very compelling value proposition to the customer:

http://ge.ecomagination.com/site/products/hybr.html

The technical challenge is how to store regeneration braking energy in a vehicle that can experience braking events that are minutes or even hours in length (imagine a train heading down a long mountain pass). Needless to say, the batteries are huge. Fortunately, the impact to the rest of the drivetrain is rather minimal, as one can imagine.

GE also showed off a hybrid mining truck. While its regen braking events are typically much shorter (10-15 minutes as the truck drives down into the open-pit mine), the power levels are much higher. I believe the goal was to capture up to 6000 HP of regen power, and then spit that back out to the drive motors as the loaded truck climbs back out of the mine. The battery pack is smaller than the locomotive's pack, but has to be able to handle much more severe charge and discharge cycles.

Terex is also developing plug-in hybrid trucks.

How does this relate to the subject? Simple - had GM still been able to "play" in these markets, it could transform itself into the world's leading supplier of clean surface-transportation technology. Imagine the PR potential of lining up a series of vehicles from the Volt to an hybrid EMD locomotive, and taking claim to having The Solution to our surface transportation needs. Imagine the profit potential...

Oh well - that's a "what if" scenario that almost certainly won't come true

teal98

They only make the hybrid transmissions. There are currently three suppliers of hybrid transmissions for buses -- BAE, ISE, and GM/Allison. Though now that Allison has been sold, I guess it's a joint venture between GM and Allison?

GM has been out of the transit bus business ever since 1987. They sold it due to high manufacturing costs (UAW rates were too high compared to non-union rates -- sound familiar?). The story of what happened to the transit lines is long and complicated. Check out wikipedia if you're interested.

5thgen69camaro

Are the big 3 propetually stuck with Unions? If not Im starting to wonder why they havent shed them long ago. Some companies are stuck. If this spreads to the company I work for which is doing good even in this downturn and this hurts us Ill be pissed. I know their pushing for that, but leave the Union foolishness off our companies working business model

Ill definately have to check that out later. Im just confused now because there was an article on Toyota being the first Hybrid bus and Lutz correcting that. Ahh here

Now I guess hybrid propulsion could simply be transmission but thats not the way I took it. Was that all they were refering to?

very interesting. I didnt know Terex was a GM spin off. Weird how these are spun off or take over by other companies such as GE and become profitable on their own. What changed? Is Terex Union?

teal98

The union issues are complex. A union does not have to make a company uncompetitive. But it can. I think the UAW has changed their stripes. I also don't think that GM could have "broken" the union earlier without causing huge damage to itself. Reforming the relationship requires both sides to be willing to reform.

It's not a simple transmission, so I don't think I'd use the word 'simply'. It's the Allison EP40 and EP50 in these buses. And the hybrid system includes a large battery pack. The beauty of it is that it uses a standard diesel engine. And it gives quick takeoff acceleration without smoke -- something nearly impossible to accomplish without an oversized diesel engine otherwise.

The Allison hybrid seems to be better than the BAE hybrid for the majority of transit systems, as it works much better at medium to high speeds that most North American transit systems operate at. NYC has had good experience with the BAE hybrid, because their buses spend a lot of time moving fairly slowly, but Toronto hasn't, because theirs operate at higher speeds than in NYC (30-35mph is common).

Any bus system with highway service is much better off with the Allison, because the engine drives the axle directly, whereas with the BAE, you go through the conversion to electricity always.

My Red 93Z-28

If they file bankruptcy, the union contract is void. If I remember correctly, if they wanted to break the union they would have to close down for x amount of days and then re-open possibly under a different name??? I'm not sure so don't quote that. If that is true, I think the lawsuit/appeals would be endless and its not something they would want to deal with.

I think the UAW has realized that the automakers are in serious trouble, and so are they if they go bankrupt, so they do seem to be trying to help. I remember seeing that they suspended the job bank (cost $478 million last year) and were willing to re-open the latest contracts for negotiation. The msnbc article posted in another thread lists them as a reason the deal is falling apart in the senate though.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218

SCNGENNFTHGEN

I live close to my job and in the boonies, so I have none of these issues. However the way things are going there won't be any boonies left before long. I hate the city, so therefore I would never live in one. Mass transit might be for some people, but NOT for me, not out here! I need to be in control of where I'm going and how fast I'm getting there.