Originally Posted by 1fastdog
(Post 5727036)
When I hear the words "Detroit Diesel" I get lofted off to a special place in my memory.
Nothing is quite as sexy to my ears as the the song of the Detroit Diesel 2 cycle engine... The Ferrari of the truck world!:yes: Fast S.O.B.. The real monster Detroit Diesel's would weep oil at every seam, but my Lord did they make the "juice".:usa: Dad's been driving truck for 40+ years, and he *hated* the 2-stroke DDs though. He said the powerband was ridiculously narrow, and that 2-stick shifting trans they usually came with was a PITA. Of course, now he whines about having two cruise control buttons in his Freightliner Coronado.:lol: |
The problem w/ "news" stories like this is that they are mostly opinion & not enough fact.
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Originally Posted by 1fastdog
(Post 5727036)
When I hear the words "Detroit Diesel" I get lofted off to a special place in my memory.
There's nothing quite like a "Michigan Special" GMC General with an 8V92, high-floatation front tires, an 8-axle trailer, and a gross weight of 80 tons :bow: My dad left the place right around the time of the White/GMC merger, IIRC, and then that company was divested to Volvo a few years later :cry: That building where he worked is now a Honda dealership. |
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Originally Posted by Eric Bryant
(Post 5726843)
Wouldn't it be better if the necessary buses were built by GMC with Detroit Diesel engines and Allison transmissions instead of by foreign companies like BAE and Bombardier?
Very weird to see you say BAE is Foreign. I worked for the all american "TRACOR" which was bought by "Marconi" (british) making it one of the first foreign owned Govt contractors. Marconi had to distance its British Management from the actual company for National Security issues. BAE is the current company of which TRACOR is a large part of. |
It's rather interesting that GE plays in all sorts of areas that were abandoned by GM - locomotives, buses, and off-highway equipment (Terex was started by GM).
I got to see a presentation by a GE engineer at an automotive battery conference earlier in the year. The company is very interested in hybrid drive systems, as $4/gallon diesel means that a diesel-electric locomotive can use around $800k of fuel per year! Since that's about the same as the purchase price of the locomotive, it's possible to throw a couple hundred thousand at hybrid powertrains, get a fuel savings of 10-20% (which can work out to be a six-figure number) and present a very compelling value proposition to the customer: http://ge.ecomagination.com/site/products/hybr.html The technical challenge is how to store regeneration braking energy in a vehicle that can experience braking events that are minutes or even hours in length (imagine a train heading down a long mountain pass). Needless to say, the batteries are huge. Fortunately, the impact to the rest of the drivetrain is rather minimal, as one can imagine. GE also showed off a hybrid mining truck. While its regen braking events are typically much shorter (10-15 minutes as the truck drives down into the open-pit mine), the power levels are much higher. I believe the goal was to capture up to 6000 HP of regen power, and then spit that back out to the drive motors as the loaded truck climbs back out of the mine. The battery pack is smaller than the locomotive's pack, but has to be able to handle much more severe charge and discharge cycles. Terex is also developing plug-in hybrid trucks. How does this relate to the subject? Simple - had GM still been able to "play" in these markets, it could transform itself into the world's leading supplier of clean surface-transportation technology. Imagine the PR potential of lining up a series of vehicles from the Volt to an hybrid EMD locomotive, and taking claim to having The Solution to our surface transportation needs. Imagine the profit potential... Oh well - that's a "what if" scenario that almost certainly won't come true :( |
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro
(Post 5729158)
Honestly I thought GM was already making hybrid Metro busses?
GM has been out of the transit bus business ever since 1987. They sold it due to high manufacturing costs (UAW rates were too high compared to non-union rates -- sound familiar?). The story of what happened to the transit lines is long and complicated. Check out wikipedia if you're interested. |
Originally Posted by teal98
(Post 5729166)
They only make the hybrid transmissions. There are currently three suppliers of hybrid transmissions for buses -- BAE, ISE, and GM/Allison. Though now that Allison has been sold, I guess it's a joint venture between GM and Allison?
GM has been out of the transit bus business ever since 1987. They sold it due to high manufacturing costs (UAW rates were too high compared to non-union rates -- sound familiar?). The story of what happened to the transit lines is long and complicated. Check out wikipedia if you're interested. Ill definately have to check that out later. Im just confused now because there was an article on Toyota being the first Hybrid bus and Lutz correcting that. Ahh here http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives..._first_ma.html Since GM introduced a commercial parallel hybrid propulsion system for mass transit bus fleets in 2003, and the world’s first full-size hybrid pickups in 2004, we follow any news about rear-wheel drive hybrids very closely.
Originally Posted by Eric Bryant
(Post 5729159)
It's rather interesting that GE plays in all sorts of areas that were abandoned by GM - locomotives, buses, and off-highway equipment (Terex was started by GM).
I got to see a presentation by a GE engineer at an automotive battery conference earlier in the year. The company is very interested in hybrid drive systems, as $4/gallon diesel means that a diesel-electric locomotive can use around $800k of fuel per year! Since that's about the same as the purchase price of the locomotive, it's possible to throw a couple hundred thousand at hybrid powertrains, get a fuel savings of 10-20% (which can work out to be a six-figure number) and present a very compelling value proposition to the customer: http://ge.ecomagination.com/site/products/hybr.html The technical challenge is how to store regeneration braking energy in a vehicle that can experience braking events that are minutes or even hours in length (imagine a train heading down a long mountain pass). Needless to say, the batteries are huge. Fortunately, the impact to the rest of the drivetrain is rather minimal, as one can imagine. GE also showed off a hybrid mining truck. While its regen braking events are typically much shorter (10-15 minutes as the truck drives down into the open-pit mine), the power levels are much higher. I believe the goal was to capture up to 6000 HP of regen power, and then spit that back out to the drive motors as the loaded truck climbs back out of the mine. The battery pack is smaller than the locomotive's pack, but has to be able to handle much more severe charge and discharge cycles. Terex is also developing plug-in hybrid trucks. How does this relate to the subject? Simple - had GM still been able to "play" in these markets, it could transform itself into the world's leading supplier of clean surface-transportation technology. Imagine the PR potential of lining up a series of vehicles from the Volt to an hybrid EMD locomotive, and taking claim to having The Solution to our surface transportation needs. Imagine the profit potential... Oh well - that's a "what if" scenario that almost certainly won't come true :( |
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro
(Post 5729675)
Are the big 3 propetually stuck with Unions? If not Im starting to wonder why they havent shed them long ago. Some companies are stuck. If this spreads to the company I work for which is doing good even in this downturn and this hurts us Ill be pissed. I know their pushing for that, but leave the Union foolishness off our companies working business model:mad:
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro
(Post 5729675)
Ill definately have to check that out later. Im just confused now because there was an article on Toyota being the first Hybrid bus and Lutz correcting that. Ahh here
Now I guess hybrid propulsion could simply be transmission but thats not the way I took it. Was that all they were refering to? The Allison hybrid seems to be better than the BAE hybrid for the majority of transit systems, as it works much better at medium to high speeds that most North American transit systems operate at. NYC has had good experience with the BAE hybrid, because their buses spend a lot of time moving fairly slowly, but Toronto hasn't, because theirs operate at higher speeds than in NYC (30-35mph is common). Any bus system with highway service is much better off with the Allison, because the engine drives the axle directly, whereas with the BAE, you go through the conversion to electricity always. |
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro
(Post 5729675)
Are the big 3 propetually stuck with Unions? If not Im starting to wonder why they havent shed them long ago. Some companies are stuck. If this spreads to the company I work for which is doing good even in this downturn and this hurts us Ill be pissed. I know their pushing for that, but leave the Union foolishness off our companies working business model:mad:
I think the UAW has realized that the automakers are in serious trouble, and so are they if they go bankrupt, so they do seem to be trying to help. I remember seeing that they suspended the job bank (cost $478 million last year) and were willing to re-open the latest contracts for negotiation. The msnbc article posted in another thread lists them as a reason the deal is falling apart in the senate though. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218 |
Originally Posted by Z28x
(Post 5726527)
"So no bail out, no loans, let the big 3 die? I think it is too late for keeping gov't out of the car business."
MO is under NO circumstances should we let them die! Mass transit, whatever they have to do, as long as they still build what I'd want to buy. Sadly for all of US, it might be too late for keeping gov't out of the car business... So higher fuel prices, no parking, and more traffic are your thing. Good Mass transit means less cars on the road and less fuel consumed. Amtrak is probably the most pleasant form of transportation for longer trips I've ever taken. Big seats, lots of leg room, smooth ride, safe. They just need to make them run faster and on time. Good mass transit would also raise standards of living for non car people. No insurance, no car payment, no maintenance, and best of all no chance for DWI. :) |
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