Pontiac, without question, remains my favorite GM division in terms of its products, to whom its targeted, and for what it represents. It makes me very, VERY nervous to see the popularity of Pontiac faltering due to the "damaged" offerings and the fading image. No, this has nothing to do with the fact I earn $$ from the success of this brand (I want to get that out of some people's heads right now). I work for my Pontiac-only dealership (RIP Olds...you are missed) one day a week, and don't make enough to have this be an economic issue for me. As a GM enthusiast, I'm scared sh!tless. Consider:

1) No Firebird, and the GTO is far from a roaring success. I blame dealers for a LOT of that though...the car is quite good, and the dealers squashed the initial hype.
2) Grand Prix is hurting. A lot. I love the new GXP, and as some know I had one on hold a few weeks back. If I already had my new job (in the process of looking for a new FT job), I likely would have the GXP in my driveway. Anyone who doubts the performance or equipment (inside and out!) of this car needs to drive one...NOW. .87g on a skidpad, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds...this thing is an LT1 F body with 4 doors and FWD. But the rest of the lineup? The s/c 3800 will save the GT somewhat for '06, but not enough I don't think. Sales are off...very off. Loyal GP owners aren't trading up. The dash is just off in this car. The GXP nose is better, but still not great. This car has never taken off, and has no coupe...a bad move. Don't pretend for a minute a coupe would be redundant with the GTO around...the 2 cars are way too different, and NOT ONE '97-'02 GP coupe buyer from my dealership has even glanced at a GTO. Some bought an '04+ and grumbled about having 4 doors...others simply have kept their cars and don't know what to get next.
3) G6 is phenomenal. GTP and 4 bangers and coupes and verts will help heal some of Pontiac's hurt...but how much?
4) Solstice?? That's more like it.
5) Torrent. You need a 3.9 NOW...otherwise, thank god the Asstek has left the building. We will sell all of you we can get.
6) Vibe. We sell a ton, and I have not the vaguest idea why. I really don't. Cheap interior, coarse engine, but hey...its a wagon with good MPG and its cheap. I guess that works.

So what does Pontiac really need?

1) New GP. Now. Not 3 years from now. Will we even get one? Some have hinted the GP is dead after this run???? Is the G8 the replacement? What's going on here? Anyone???
2) Pursuit. Picture a Pursuit GXP coupe and sedan done even more radical than the Cobalt SS. This would be the perfect Mazda 3 smasher...Pontiac NEEDS a small car to go against the 3 and upcoming SE-R Sentra...but we won't get one, will we?
3) What is the future of GTO? Lutz's Autoweek interview says "IF we do another GTO, it will be retro." Say what??? If??? I thought GTO + Big Chevy Coupe + Camaro were a go for '08?

Fix those above 3 items, and Pontiac would be back where it always was...GMs solid #2 division with a ton of sales. It scares the crap out of me that in June, Buick was up 38% but Pontiac was DOWN 14% versus a year ago. Huh? DOWN???

I have a vested interest in where Pontiac goes. My heartstrings are pulled by Camaros, but I will always have a Pontiac as a driver, so long as the offerings are worth it. In my immediate family, in the last 13 years alone, we've owned

-'91 Grand Am SE H.O. Sedan (Dad's, purchased used in '93...what a little 180hp RIPPER )
-'95 Grand Prix SE Sedan (Mom bought new)
-'98 Grand Prix GT Sedan (Mom ordered new)
-'98 Grand Am SE Sedan (Sister bought used from me in '00)
-'01 Grand Prix GT Sedan (Mom bought new, now is my sister's)
-'02 Formula (Dad bought new from me ...someday I'll buy it from him )

For me??

-'95 Grand Am SE V6 Coupe (Bought used in '00)
-'02 Grand Am GT Coupe (Bought new in '02)
-'01 Grand Prix GT Coupe (Bought used in '03)
-'99 Grand Am SE Sedan (Bought used with fiance 2 months ago)

10 cars in 12 years...5 new, 5 used. We've loved them all, and still own 4 of them. I pray GM can turn Pontiac around in the same manner they turned around Caddy. For me personally, I can't imagine not having a new Pontiac in my driveway, now that I'm close to affording new cars going forward. Ashleigh wants to replace the Grand Am with a new 2.4 G6 within 2 years, and if I decide I don't like the 5th gen, I already have $$ set aside for a 3rd gen fund and a replacement for my GP...I hope a new GP (or G8) will be it. I hope...

 

Though I was solidly Ford in the 80s and early 90s, I've always had a soft spot for Pontiacs. Probally because I would have sold my mom to get ahold of a Trans Am back in the late 70s.

Pontiac also has had more than a few intresting rides. Most of them forgotten. Anyone remember that at least one year in the late 80s, you could get every Pontiac except the Bonneville with a turbocharger... including the Grand Prix & Trans Am?

In the 90s, Pontiac went more for the "looks" of excitement than actual excitement. They became the Grand Prix and Firebird next to alot of wannabes.

Pontac has during my "automotive life" been about being obnoxious looking. Too much cladding, too much scoop, too much spoiler, much too big "screaming chicken" hood decal. And Pontiac is the ONLY car division on the plannet that can easily pull it off!

Pontiac is now going towards "sophistication", but it seems some people forgot how badly it failed last time GM tried it, back in the early 80s.

I wouldn't call Pontiac a "damaged" brand, as much as a "misguided" one. Losing the cladding was a mistake. Sure, the cars look great without them. But erase the split of the grille of all current Pontiacs, and the car could be a Chevrolet or even a Buick. Try that with a Grand Am, or a fully cladded "old" Grand Prix.

Also, what on earth is Pontiac doing with a Minivan? WTF is an excitement division doing with a Crossover? Why was the Bonneville every bit as dull and incompetent handling as a marshmellow soft Buick?

I love the GTO. Even money that it's going to be my next car. But I'm buying it because it's a great car, not because it's a Pontiac. I'd still buy the car if it was sold by Chevrolet, Buick, or Chrysler.

That should tell you something.

 

I think personally that Pontiac is trading in "soul" for "sophistication" and it isn't gonna work. My sister is getting a Grand Am and she wouldn't even consider a G6.
I too have a soft spot for Pontiacs.

 

I'm still holding out hope for a Solstice coupe

other than that, not much at Pontiac really gets me too excited right now. The GTO is nice, but that's it - it' sjust nice.

....Hopefully the next gen GTO will have more inspirational styling and about (at least) 300 lbs less weight than the current one

 

I only want another Pontiac if its a car worth owning. For my fiance's tastes, a 2.4 G6 will be perfect for her. For me, the 6 speed GTP coupe is getting up there on my list, but after upsizing to a GP, a G6 feels a little small. GTO is simply too expensive for a driver IMO, therefore I am praying this G8 materializes and really becomes something special.

I agree there was all too often too much cladding on Pontiacs, and in all honesty I welcome the change. I'm not sure if you're referring to the '97-'03 GPs with the "old Grand Prix" comment or not, but one thing I love about my car is that its virtually cladding free. There are lower gfx on a GT and GTP that are subtle and blend into the overall shape. No clunky, chunky streaks or cladding across the midsection like '88-'96 GPs or any Grand Am made before '03! Style is what made me love those cars, and my mom's '98 and '01 GTs were both stylish cars that got a ton of compliments. I've been shocked how many people have actually come into the dealership and asked about "that Grand Prix on the side...is it for sale?" Amazing what updated chrome wheels did for the look of mine I get a ton of compliments on my car, and its an 8 year old design!

guion,
I know what you mean about removing the nose of any current Pontiac and it could be a Chevy, and I am hoping that's about to change. However, I think the G6 is dead on. I love the style...especially the coupe. The car is not the sales performer Grand Am was because there's only been 2 models available...that will change.

And FWIW, Grand Am is why I'm glad Pontiac is changing direction. I really liked my '95 SE coupe way back when...but my '02 GT was way over the top. I let my dad talk me out of an Alero GL2 coupe and into the GT because "resale will suck on the Alero," which was true. But I always loved Aleros...everything it did super well was awful on a Grand Am. I know you said in a previous post Grand Ams had soul...I beg to differ The dash was tragic, the adjustable lumbar GT seat KILLED my back, the cladding was awful...within 14 months I asked myself "why the hell did I buy this?" I traded it for the GP and never looked back. The '99 SE we have now I prefer for some odd reason. Maybe its because I got a good deal on it But its also because the cladding on the SEs wasn't as gaudy (especially in dark colors), the 120 MPH speedo in an SE is far easier to read than the tiny #s on the 150 speedo in a GT, and the seat is way more comfortable sans lumbar adjustement (on a GT, even cranked all the way in pissed off my back). I won't get into the build quality of the car...lets just say it was not a good example of "the new GM." It was nice because it was brand new. Once that faded and the reality of 4 years worth of payments came into view, forget it...

So can anyone shed any light on the future of GTO? GP? Will we ever get a Cobalt version? Any answers would be appreciated...

 

Grand Prix: I'm so impressed by the GXP. It's just such an enjoyable car to drive. And I'm glad the '06 GT will carry on with the SC3800, and for a transaction price, probably well under $25K. What GP really needs IMO, is some tweaking. It needs a new dash/IP and revised front and rear fascias. Which unfortunately, I don't believe it will get.

G6: Ok, the coupe, convertible and GTP are almost here. G6 is probably Pontiac's most important product. I'd like to see Pontiac do more with it. AWD and HFV6 have already been cut from the program, however you can..... Get rid of the numb steering...across the board. Make a manual trans available for every model. Offer a SC or turbo Ecotec with a suspension tune like a 9-3. Sure hope the GTP isn't a disappointment.

GTO: Sort of a peripheral player for Pontiac. Too bad. Since when is a GTO a 2+2? GTO should be the RWD, 2+3, coupe companion to the GP GXP. I'd like to see it have greater sales volume, greater variety/more approachable variations.

 

My friend, park a G6 next to a Grand Am and tell me which is the better car. Better looking, better quality...then drive them and see which is better. Take it from someone who bought a GA GT brand new...a G6, even in base form, is far and away a SIGNIFICANTLY nicer car, in EVERY WAY. I sat in a beige '04 SE on the lot the other day with the beige dash and interior...god is that car ugly inside. They cheapened the fabric, radio and trim bits significantly as the car aged...our '99 feels like a Caddy inside compared to that '04. They even took the cloth off the door panels and made them all a 1 piece molded crap thing!!!!

Tell her to please, please consider a baseline G6. Finanace it a little longer, and get a LOT better car than a used GA.

 

She is so set on a GA you wouldn't believe. She loves everything about them. Personally, I think the G6 is a nice car, but doesn't scream "soul" (more like whispers) to me. Maybe the coupe will change my opinion, but I don't know. I like a cleaner look, but as I remembered, I always thought of Pontiac as over the top (kind of like those huge birds on the hoods. )

 

It seems like you and I agree on a lot these days

Grand Prix: I know you said your friend got a GXP...its nice to know someone else on this board that feels the same way about the car I do. Its all in the drive with that car...its amazing. That's all I can say about it...you have to drive one to understand. And I agree...2 performance engines in the GP line will help. I want to know more about this "interior upgrade package" they're offering on base, GT and GXP for '06...haven't seen it yet. Also, they're packaging the cars a little different for '06...base models can now get moonroofs, Monsoon and leather. GTs get 17s and s/c 3.8s. So basically, a base model is now like a GT, a GT is more like a base model GTP. I like where this is going

G6: At least the GTP gets rid of the numb steering. Coincidentally, I was perusing the Malibu SS standard equipment list last Saturday...it also get the hydraulic steering as well. No pricing on it yet...I look forward to it.

GTO: It should be a 2 door GP...I agree. Making that car a 5 seater would have already helped me sell at least 2 more. So maybe G8 will be more aggressive and GTO be a little more versatile, and they'll complement each other???

So, does ANYONE know about the name issue with G8? Will they really give up the GP name after the debacle with killing the GA name? Does the car even exsist at all?

 

Read this thread for limited info on what is happening with the Monaro. Simply put Holden are going to pull the plug on the Monaro, and maybe preping a final batch, but no one is really sure when the plug will be pulled and Holden aren't saying.

 

 

Well, if she does get one, have her get a GT I guess. I hated mine, but if she can swallow the look and the seat doesn't bother her (it doesn't do it to a lot of people, but the ones it affects? OWWWW after 100 miles). At least with a GT, resale is significantly higher, ABS is standard (remember, '03 and up SE is optional. If she looks at an SE, check and see if it has the "ETS" button next to the hazard switch. If it doesn't, no ABS, and I wouldn't buy it...assuming you guys get much snow), and the acceleration and handling difference is tangible. The 3.29 axle ratio versus the 2.93 in a V6 SE produced a big difference...also the GT had 5hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. According to C&D, that equated to a 7.7 versus 8.1 0-60!!!! Handling is significantly crisper in a GT, too.

 

I was afraid you'd say that. So, does this mean G6 will soon be Pontiac's flagship? Is that a real possibility? Charlie, tell me I'm wrong...please?

 

I have an '04 GTP, and I love it. I am totally baffled by the slamming of these cars. Good power, good handling, nice interior, rerasonably priced, and I personally think they look very sharp.Plus, in Denver, I see them everywhere. So I am not sure where people AREN'T buying them, but it isn't in Denver apparently.

As for the GTO, I really think Pontiac needs to have a base v-6 model, and the ability to choose the level of options on the car. They are really good cars from everything I have read, and seen ( though I have not yet been ab le to drive one ). Even though I have read they were always planned to be limited to 18k units max, going forward I think that they cannot make a business case(for the NA produced ones) for the car unless they take cues from the way the Mustang is sold; make a base car(3.9 literv-6?) that shares styling and gives alot of value at a lower price point, (and an easier to insure price point), then offer the ability to dress up either a base model or the v-8 model to the nines. Having performance upgrade options that are dealer installed, and not void the warranty, I would think would also help in increasing both manufacturer and dealer profit, while still allowing fair market pricing for the car.

 

The G6 GTP sure won't pull it off.

The G8 would have been a rebadged Commodore built here. As we all know, that's not going to happen.

With Holdens 2nd plant going up in Asia, I hope Pontiac and Holden can share some future products.