I came across an interesting quote in a GM dealer rag.
It says: "Camaro owners are very brand loyal" says Scott Settlemire, assistant brand manager Camaro. "Ninety percent of Camaro owners buy GM cars as their second vehicle. This Camaro Legends Tour is a way for dealers to reach these owners"

My thoughts. Since GM had known there would be no more Firebird, is that why there is no Firebird Legends Tour?

I totally believe that 90 percent of Camaro owners are loyal. However, personally I think Firebird/Pontiac owners are even MORE brand loyal than that! I would like to see those numbers.

Anyway, did Pontiac Motor Division think about brand loyalty among Poncho nuts when they cancelled the Firebird? I dont think they did, and I think Pontiac will lose market share cuz of it.

For my part, I bought a Buick Regal GS for my wife recently instead of the better looking GTP, just as a way to say thanks to Pontiac. (Now I wish I would have got her a Yugo, but that is a different story.)

I no longer want to go to a Pontiac showroom for any reason. It would just make me mad.

However, I still am still looking for a nice 2nd gen 70-73 Bird for my next car, and would not hesitate to buy a 70 GTO convertible or a 69 Firebird if I came across a cheap one either. Just no more new Pontiacs for me till the FIREBIRD comes back. The Vibe wont cut it, sorry.

The possible ?GTO? turbo six banger wont do it for me either, tho I realize some will like it. Example: My neighbor has a MarkIV Supra that has a lot of mods, but it sounds almost EXACTLY like another neighbors fart piped Neon. The sound of the car is important to me and I have never heard a six popper that sounded good. V8s for me thanks.



[This message has been edited by Reno Leigh (edited December 29, 2001).]

 

Very true. And as good as a 5th gen sounds, there won't be a Pontiac (so far), which just makes me sad. The 5th gen Camaro will have to be a knockout for me to buy it. It just depends on what they come up with. But I'd rather have a Pontiac.

I would consider a I6 Turbo, but only because I'd keep my Formula. As a replacement, no way. But I'd rather have a V8.

So that leaves me with option C, pretty much the same as yours; find a 1st or 2nd gen 'Bird. Thats what I'm leaning towards, and they are cheaper anyways. So my next car will probably be a Pontiac, with a V8.

------------------
1994 Formula A4, 3.23
Flowmaster, K&N FIPK, MAC Headers, Off-Road Pipe
14.032 @ 99 - 2.091 60'
The 'Bird
"Push the seat back a little lower, watch light bend in the blower."

 

There is great loyalty with Camaro owners...but boy..I've seen alot of them (even really loyal ones)..trade their Camaros in for something else..and it's not just to get a bigger rear seat. They were tired of poor fit and finish..too many rattles.. old chassis etc.

But hey...were all here to make sure the 5th gen turns out to be awesome..and make mine a "REAL" Z/28!

 

2nd gen Firebird has been mentioned alot, so I thought Id show this again:
Its a 5th gen Firebird concept drawing by Daniel Kuhlmeyer. He based it of the second generations styling theme.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0...05transam.html

--Ted krygier
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/

 

While I think that a lot of Firebird owners owna nother Pontiac, I really doubt it is equal to or more than Camaro owners owning another Chevy... if for no other reason, except the fact that there are so many more Chevy's (including trucks) to choose from...

BUT, I think this is one reason why Chevy & Pontiac should always have an F-Car... these owners almost always buy another GM product.


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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

 

Reno - Note that the quote was "ninety percent of Camaro owners buy GM cars as their second vehicle". So you fit, so far, in the 90%. I agree with you though to a point about the likely effects if no V8 sports/muscle car follows the 4gen Firebird. I really think Pontiac needs a V8 halo car to keep their brand identity alive. And if they don't have that identity, can they still survive? If they intend to be more like BMW as said recently by Lutz, they still need one. I for one sincerely hope Chevy doesn't become the sole performance division at GM (although I'd still buy a 5gen Camaro if they did). I doubt very much I would buy a turbo-6 GTO. No matter how hot a next-gen Grand Prix or GTO might be with less than eight cylinders, I will always want a V8 - at least until hi-performance AWD hybrids are cheap (probably 10-15 years from now at least). Who knows, maybe they'll have a V8 hybrid by then!

Z284ever - You must be speaking of the older (non-4gen) Fbodies. Because my 99 Formula has state-of-the-art crashworthiness, with 4/5 driver/pasgr stars from NHTSA tests (better than my 98 Grand Prix BTW!). And nary a squeak to be found. I'm growing tired of this myth about the current Camaro/Firebird's "crummy archaic chassis" (and I'm not saying that was your claim BTW). Obviously there are better chassis out there - Z06, Impala, BMW, etc. And IRS would be nice too if cost-effective - that's another debate. But for the price, the current FBody remains a great performance value, right down to its "archaic" chassis that can put many/most regular sedans/coupes to shame on a curvy road, probably even with the base engine. If it has an LS1 you'd better have at least a Cobra or $8-10K more than a base Z28 (at $22K) to think about keeping up.

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NBM 99Formula, DF Lid, K&N, SLP WS6 Takeoff Muffler | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, transcooler
| Dark Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, stock

 

BigDarknFast..sorry buddy.. I am talking about the 4th gen. It does have good crashworthiness and the live rear axle and relatively flex- prone chassis have been developed to the max....but man oh man oh man does it need updating.

Also, I'd pay the premium you mentioned for a "REAL" 5th gen Z/28.

 

Brand loyalty, I've been preaching that ever since i came to this site and the 5th Gen forum. I am of perfect example, my first car, a '78 Z/28. I've owned many F-bodies since and drive all GM vehicles now.
The F-body is an exellent entry level performance car and young people are lured to them by the thousands every year.
GM will suffer greatly just by the Camaro being gone for a couple of years. And it doesn't look good for Pontiac right now. They act like they want the Firebird to just go away so they can shove horrible cars like the azztek down the publics throats.
With no Firebird in the line-up what do they have to lure young people to Pontiac? Nothing.


Cars currently own:

-2000 Ram Air T/A
-92 Firebird
-79 Z/28
-72 Chevy Pickup, Restored
-85 Chevy Nova FWD, commuter car
-82 Chevy S-10.

Cars previously owned:
-99 Z/71 Pickup
-66 GTO
-72 Olds Cutlass Supreme
-75 Monte Carlo
-78 Z/28
-Different 79 Z/28

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THE Z-MAN

[This message has been edited by THE Z-MAN (edited December 30, 2001).]

 

Ted, thanks for posting that. Not bad. I would like it a lot better tho if it had round headlights, since it is trying for the 70-73 look, and they had round headlights. They could be smaller than the original 70's, but still should be round. The triangular headlights dont look right to me.

I would also change the rear tailights, making them go all the way across instead of being broken up in the middle. Firebirds and Pontiacs have always had nice tailights, from 1965 on up anyways.

I cant help but feel we are wasting our time tho discussing how a 5th gen Firebird should look.

 

I politely disagree Darth, the Pontiac people I know are pretty rabid fans...

Lets take my family. My gramps was die hard Pontiac. He bought dozens of them new in his lifetime. New ones every year for himself and the wife, and all his company cars were new Pontiacs every year, he made sure of that. Shop trucks were Chevys and GMCs, since Pontiac has not made a truck since the late 30s I believe.

So anyway, my dad was a Pontiac guy then too, and myself and my brother and sister also have preferred Pontiacs. My sisters first car was a Trans Am. My Brothers first car was a Formula, and so on. I have now only a 92 Trans Am, I have not had a Camaro since my 93 Z28. But My first car was a slammed Chevy stepside, and I have no problem buying a Camaro, even if there is no F5 Firebird. I have Chevy Trucks now too.

Anyway, the original quote by Scott was that Camaro buyers buy 90 percent GM cars. I just take that further, and not only do Firebird buyers buy 90 percent GM, it is my impression that most of the Firebird owners stay strictly within the PONTIAC family, only straying to GMs other divisions when they need a truck.

Pontiac people just seemed to me as extra loyal. They like how Pontiacs looked. Cant speak for future Pontiacs tho, or future buyers. Pontiac seems to be lost....

[This message has been edited by Reno Leigh (edited December 30, 2001).]

 

I guess i am the odd man out,i owned 2 mustangs previously(86 GT and 88 5.0 hb).The reason i bought my first(97 SS with a 2002 SS on order)camaro(my first car was a 77 Trans-Am)is because it was such a superior car performance wise,compare the 94 Mustang and the 94 Camaro.
I have no brand loyalty,i will buy whichever car is better and the camaro is the better car.


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86 T-Type
2002 SS (arrives march or april)

 

Z284ever - I do agree with you on some points. The live rear axle has been splendidly refined (maybe that's a reason why the 2002 GMC Envoy, recently named Motor Trend 2002 SUV of the Year, also has a live rear axle). And there is no doubt the chassis can benefit from an update, or maybe an all-new one like Sigma should be used. I'd like to see a longer wheelbase too and a third door like on the Saturn SC. My point though was, the current chassis is a great bargain for someone seeking high performance on a budget. Fit-n-finish? I have not seen the quality problems on my Formula so feared and lamented by some. And if I did run across an "unequal panel gap" frankly I wouldn't give a hoot. I've got the Power... under the hood.

Z-Man - I don't think it will hurt GM market share much if the Camaro is only gone for a year or two. If targeting 2005, they will likely have a concept at NAIAS 2003 and a production-intent version at NAIAS 2004. So people will know what's coming. If it makes 2005, that will be just in time to snare 2002 lessees and chevy buyers with SSR-remorse.

As for young people the Vibe will probably be a real hit with them. The question though is, what does that Vibe owner aspire to as he/she ages? With no V8 halo car like the Trans Am, Pontiac might steadily lose market share as the buyers age. The average age now of V8 FBody buyers is 35-40. People in this age bracket are more likely to have more than one car, or directly influence those in their family by cosigning on loans. This is where the loyalty comes in, or goes away, depending on what Pontiac can put out. I hope Pontiac stops treating V8's like an unwanted stepchild. If they reject the V8 it will put the brand in jeopardy. BTW Z-Man - nice fleet of cars. I used to have a K5 Blazer. What do you think of the K5 concept Chevy had at NAIAS 2001?

Pontiac needs a leader like RedPlanet!!!!

 

Mass....

I'm like you. I just buy what I like..no matter who makes it; 'Benz, Toyota, Ford, DC, GM, Lexus, and so on.

David
'67 Camaro
'97 E320 Ragtop
'99 Pontiac Montana
'02 SLK320

My Garage

[This message has been edited by 67LT1 (edited December 30, 2001).]

 

BigDarknFast- True the current F-body is a bargain..(if you don't count 30-35K for the gingerbread on an SS)..but what you get for that price is a "motor in a box".

While this concept is appealing for a bench seat Road Runner(I know Mopar) or a really fast strippo Nova...the Camaro and especially the Z/28 should be a whole lot more. It's about style and image and yes...even sophistication.

I want a "REAL" Z/28!

 

That's cool. I have owned nothing but GM myself. The way I took it was that Camaro people bought more Chevy's (Firebird bought Pontiac) rather than crossing over the whole GM brand world... Since Pontiac has notrucks, I figured it would be almost impossible for Pontiac to hold that number, especially in today's market...

But, yes, I do agree with you that Firebird owners would be just as loyal to GM as Camaro owners... but I think for some types of vehicles (basically trucks and SUV's) that Firebird owners are pretty much forced out of the Pontiac brand to fill those needs...



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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor