Darth Xed

I have nothing to back this up... but I have always "heard" that the bulk of subassemblies and other pieces n' parts for foreign nameplates assembles int he U.S. are imported from other countries, and generally from the parent country...

Again, this is just stuff I have heard (this is a flash point topic in my town because of Lordstown Assembly), and things may be different...

Robert_Nashville

Where are you getting your information from??? Can you show me the IRS Code that supports your statement about foreign company execs living here tax free?

---------------
This is from Cornel University's website
(http://www.payments.cornell.edu/Tax_..._Nationals.cfm)

Resident Alien is a foreign national who either has a green card or meets the "substantial presence test." All other foreign nationals are Nonresident Aliens. The "substantial presence test" is described in IRS Pub. 519. Information is also available from Cornell's Payroll or Tax Dept.

A nonresident alien is taxed on U.S. source income only--not worldwide income. Generally, a nonresident alien is eligible for only one personal exemption and cannot take the standard deduction on his/her tax return. A resident alien is taxed in the same manner as a U.S. citizen.
---------------

In other words, if they earn their income here, they pay taxes here.

However, putting all that aside for the moment, even if you are right and they can live in the US tax free, what exactly does that prove? If you added up all the income of all the foreign executives living in the US (and I submit that you woudl be hard pressed to find a foreign executive living here for 10 years in any event), you are talking pennies comparred to the billions of dollars foreign manufactureres bring INTO the US economy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but making wild claims to support an opinion does a disservice to both your opinion and the discussion in general.

Jason E

When I originally read this statement, I assumed by "collective piles of ****" you were referring to American cars in general...hence my previous statement.

For what its worth, I've driven 3 Colorados and have sold a ton of previous gen Tacomas. I do not see where the previous Tacoma had ANY quality advantages to it over the Colorado. I cannot however vouch for the new Tacoma, as I have not sat in one yet. Both nice trucks, but to me the statement that the Toyota didn't feel as cheap seems more like typical magazine bias than reality...the Colorado has a very nice interior. No flames intended...like I said, enjoy the Tacoma. But I think even when considering the new Tacoma, the 2 trucks are highly competitive.

Aron,
When someone gets me going on this topic I let it all out I really wish people thought about reality than perceived reality. Someone above mentioned all the jobs lost in MI...a sad state of affairs. Keep buying your domestic-built imports, guys, and think you're doing the country a favor. Its your choice, and as Americans we all have the right to choose. But don't try and convince me buying a Toyota/Honda/Nissan is like buying a Ford in terms of the impact on our economy, because it is NOT true. I already see the day when America = banks, insurance companies, universities, hospitals and service companies with customer service hotlines in India, Mexico and China!! Oh wait...that's already the Northeast in a nutshell. When Japan has TEN car companies and we have two, what does that tell you?

Anyway Aron, thanks for the compliment...

Robert_Nashville

You know, I hear the claim a lot about former GM or Ford employees in MI or OH who have “lost” their jobs” because of foreign competition and frankly, I don’t buy it. I don’t think these guys are sitting around boarded-up plants hoping they’ll re-open and take them back in.

Those people who “loose” their jobs don’t stay unemployed forever; they get other jobs (just like I had to do a few years ago when I moved from Ohio to Tennessee). As the Cato Institute article notes, that view is a static (and incorrect) view of our economy in that it ignores how our economy grows, changes and evolves over time.

GM and Ford and every other automotive manufacturer and supplier have closed plants and re-opened other ones for as long as there has been an automotive industry…long before “foreign” competition was even a drop in the bucket as far as market share is concerned. In every industry and for many reasons, people “loose” their jobs all the time…it’s simply part of our economy.

Certainly, when someone we know looses his/her job it’s a lot more personal. And yes, it’s unfortunate when a plant closes or cut-backs are made and jobs are eliminated whether it’s because of “foreign competition” or the purchase of a painting robot that replaces four human workers. And I don’t underestimate how difficult it is for a middle-aged man who has worked most of his life for GM or Ford to suddenly be without a job and the tough decisions he has to make. But that situation is part of “life” no matter what industry you want to talk about and whether there is or isn’t “foreign” competition involved.

Jason E

You are way oversimplifying the matter, with all due respect. Likely, you buy into the theory Bush gives about all the jobs created under his administration. OK, I'll believe that...but what KINDS of jobs are they? Does the expansion of Wal Mart really HELP anyone?

The perfect example of this was in the Wall Street Journal today. As part of the article, a man was interviewed who used to work in an artillery factory in AR. The plant closed down, and he was laid off. He could not possibly replace his $18.50/hr job at any local place. All of the "foreign competition" had driven labor rates down to no more than $14/hr for the same job. So now, the man had to sell his house, move in with his mother and long haul trucks to make money. Do you have ANY idea how often this happens?

Its easy to say its a natural cycle. But the problem is, QUALITY jobs are getting more scarce as more and more manufacturing moves away and American businesses go under. The article was all about this area of Northern AR where the poor to rich gap keeps getting higher and higher. You say GM opens and closes plants, but do you realize in my short lifetime of 24 years how many jobs have been cut and NOT been replaced. And it isn't simply due to efficiency innovations due to modern machinery. Its because the demand for U.S. built products is declining because people bought what was superior years ago (aka tons of Toyotas/Hondas), but now that they could give a car made in their own country a fair chance because its comparable, they frankly don't care.

Stepping off the soapbox now, as no one probably cares what I have to say anyway. I'm off to the living room to polish my just-purchased 17" American Racing Fusions I bought to put on the GP later this Spring. Proudly made in CA And yes, I checked that before purchase

IMPALA64

Made here or not, japanese vehicles are imports. Simple as that.People who believe the import biased media love em' though. I'll walk before I drive one.

Chris 96 WS6

Jason, I think you and others are the ones actually oversimplifying the issue. I know Robert_Nashville and he is an intelligent and thoughful fellow.

The whole "where do the profits go" is a massive oversimplification and as Robert has pointed out it totally ignores foreign direct investment in the US (which balances out the much whined about trade deficit) and sharehold value and dividends. The "where do the profits go" argument is popular because it is easy to understand, but that doesn't mean it is not flawed. The reality is much more complex and any attempt at such a sound byte explanation falls woefully short.

The big piece of the puzzle no one has mentioned here is wealth creation. The economy is not a closed system with a set amount of money that is shuffled around from one party to another. The U.S. is a massive wealth and money creating engine. Yes we bleed a lot of that off but that is what gives us cheap prices on consumer goods, which increases our standard of living by increasing disposeable income.

I remember in the 80's everybody was running around saying we were doomed to 2nd class status as Japan was going to overtake us as the biggest economy in the world. THey've been stagnating for almost 2 decades now.

Robert raises excellent points about the dynamic, not static nature of employment. Yes, jobs come and jobs go, but people find other work. That's how the system works and it is how we replace generally lower skill, lower wage jobs with higher wage, higher tech jobs. That's how we continue to produce on the leading edge of the world.

I still firmly believe that an individual making the best choice on a personal economic level (i.e. choosing the lowest priced product, regardless of where it is made) is NEVER bad for the US economy as a whole. Foreign competition has forced domestic manufacturers to improve the efficiency of their products.

Does anyone here think if the imports had never gained a foothold here that e would have the kinds of efficient powerplants and high-quality (compared to the 70s and 80s) vehicles to choose from today?

This is no different than the wal-mart debate. Everybody whines about Wallyworld buying cheap Chinese products, but look how much more buying power you are left with after saving 20% on your groceries, etc.? That is money you put into a car purchase or a dvd player or any other number of purchases that puts money into other sectors of the economy.

Foreign automobile competition and stores like WalMart have been huge boosters to worker productivity, which means we produce more value per hour of work. US workers remain the most productive on the planet.

Jason E

Sure, we're productive. A lot of us also remain more broke, and more in debt, than ever because salaries simply do not meet inflation rises. Why? Simple...a lack of QUALITY jobs. Sure, Wallyworld keeps a couple more bucks in MY pocket, but what does it do for all the store owners Wal Mart puts out of business? What does it do for the people who worked at those stores, but now make $8 an hour? Don't ignore how popular credit cards and house re-financing is these days...maybe there's a reason for it.

And yes Chris, new jobs are created. There are more high-tech jobs than ever, I agree. However, you may be forgetting the massive hole between those high-tech jobs and the Wal Mart jobs. Sure, evolution of the American worker makes some richer, but every day you see more and more erosion in the middle class.

I understand the whole cheap goods theory and how cheap imports give us more disposable income. But if people are being laid off of work due to rising foreign competition, it doesn't matter how cheap things are because they don't have any money anyway! That's the point I'm trying to make here.

Besides, the cheaper import argument doesn't work for cars anyway. I know you were going after a more macroeconomic view, whereas I'm sticking to the car biz. I agree with your argument on imports keeping the price level of household goods lower. But when it comes to a car, when an American product is as cheap or cheaper than the foreign good, when the quality is the same, I believe more people should be supporting the American good...period.

Like I said from the first post I made on here, most people here won't agree with me anyway. But I see this stuff every day and it really ticks me off. I will buy American anything for as long as I can...but my choices outside of cars are becoming VERY thin....I just wish more people would support the American car industry. Its one of the last few we still have, and I still believe buying a Chevy supports more Americans than buying a Nissan. That, at the end of the day, is what matters to me in this argument.

90rocz

My take on things is this:
#1....Level the playing field, if it's sold in the U.S.A., the manufacturers and their products;
a)should be held to the same standards for Labor, Pollution and safety standards, AS WE ARE!
ex.= NO WAGE SLAVERY! $.25 per hour is not a worthy salary say, for building vehicles...Period!(..an exageration, but you get my point..)
It seems company's going abroad reap(said "rape")all of the benefits w/o giving back to their laborers..
Buying "American" goes beyond simple geography, there are principals at stake, that are universal to human rights everywhere.
There is too much; Prison, Forced and Slave waged labor abroad, as it stands.
They want a Novus Ordo Seclorum, (new world order), they must give equal RESPECT to ALL those involved...
Quit being so Micro focused, Macro is whereyou begin to see....

jkipp84

I can see where my statement would sound that way.

I meant to exagerate getting their **** together as in their act together.
As for the 'media bias', I'll take that with a grain of salt as you've made it pretty clear your not exactly what one would call 'impartial' yourself.

FWIW, I test drove 2 Colorados, checked one out at an auto show, and test drove 2 Tacos. I found the Tacos to be of higher quality. I walked in there not knowing which would be better before hand and made my decision. I'm perfectly happy with it.

Chris 96 WS6

Boy, that is a niave statement. We-mean-well-but-don't-know-what-we're-talking-about socialism. Maybe the commie guy around here will chime in too!

$5 buys a lot more in mexico than it does here. $5 buys a lot more in China than it does Mexico. We could and should do more to ensure countries with which we do business use safe, human employment practices and facilities, but the wages MUST be set by the prevailing local economic issues. First of all I don't know how you are going to force the wages up.....good luck drafting that piece of legislation.

Second, you'd throw a massive wrench into labor market economies of these poorer countries by doing that.

Saw a thing on PBS a month or so ago. It was talking about a Ford engine manufacturing plant in Mexico. It is a fairly high wage, high tech job, meaning its not a lot of money here but down there its a pretty good living. But, when we first started sending work to mexico it was very cheap, unskilled stuff, and the "sweat shops" down there are called machiladoras. As more work flowed down there, the standard of living has gone up in many parts of Mexico and as the workforce became more skilled we've sent higher tech work down there...Now most machiladoras are being sent to even cheaper labor markets like Asia while Mexico is getting more 2nd teir work.

If we went into a country where the average person makes $400 a YEAR and DEMAND because we are soooo compassionate that we pay then at least $5/hr, that would so totally destroy their economy we'd be run out on rails. You'd cause massive inflation almost instantly.

I'd like for you "buy-american" guys to come down to the Nissan plant in Smyrna or the Toyota Tundra plant in Princeton Indiana and tell those AMERICAN workers assembling those cars that you won't buy their products because they are not American.

I'd like you to go to my hometown of Owensboro KY, to the Dana plant where they make the frames for the Tundra, and tell them you won't buy it because its not American.

Nobody has mentioned that these so called "profits" going back to Japan are nearly worthless right now with how low the Dollar is vs. foreign currency. Anybody not making their products here is getting destroyed on the exchange rate right now.

falchulk

You remain broke because salaries and benefit costs go up costing employers more. They then charge more for the same product giving you less or equal money then you had before your last raise. Then add in the fact that this country thinks minimum wage should be $20hr. Every time wage costs go up, consumers pay an exponential cost.

falchulk

This is where my problem with what you are saying is " THE ENTIRE CAR, INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR WAS DESIGNED BY GM. It is built on a Toyota platform, I never denied this. GM approached Toyota about building this car, not the other way around. Toyota decides to sell a rebadged version well AFTER the car was designed.

Chrome383Z

Robert Nashville you are correct. I was wrong on the Exec Tax statement. BUT only partially incorrect. I heard this from a buddy who works for a Foreign plant and took it for gold. Anyhow, based on your statement they live here Tax Free on "world" income and that's probably where that came from. But still not paying Taxes and is this right?

Now for people attacking each other it's just retarded. I've attacked a couple people and vice-versa. It really pointless because your going to support what you spent your good hard earned cash on. Period.

This is really a pointless debate also because its going to come down to a "Liberal vs Conservative" which it has already. The statistics can be swung both ways to support both. So there's really no point in arguing over it.

My opinion is we should support American vehicles and products. Others have differing views. But we ALL should all watch this market very carefully because I've said it for a long time, I may be a Chevy fan; but if Ford ever goes down or merges with GM (been rumors of talks) it will be a /very/ sad day.

Jason E

I will happily admit to being partial to American brands...thanks for re-stating the obvious But when I consider something equal, I can do that without being partial to one side. A Camry is a better car than a Malibu...but I don't see where an '04 Tacoma is better than a Colorado, IMO.

falchulk,
You've gone from saying the Vibe is a Pontiac with a Toyota engine to now saying its a restyled Toyota (I can quote your post if you prefer), which is what I said in the first place. I never said Pontiac didn't design the outside! Give it a rest! Game over there, bud