90rocz

I strongly disagree, we have history to prove other wise. There would still be fierce competetion between US companies as Ford and GM have had for nearly a century. Being unionized had no affect on this. In fact it has been the companies themselve that have made gross management mistakes that have put them in peril, such as GM linking with Fiat and now having to pay the 4 Billion to "walk-away"...
So I'm in a warped paradigm b/c I can see the "forrest and the trees" or the storm and the forces that created it....hmmmm.

Robert_Nashville

90rocz, you must be reading a different history book than I am.

You may disagree all you wish but Chris is absolutely correct.

While it would be unfair to say that the UAW is totally responsible for the problems of the domestic manufacturers; they are and continue to be a very significant part of it (and I mean no offence to UAW members; just making an informed observation).

The “fierce competition” between the domestic nameplates of which you speak, while it gave us some very interesting and desirable choices in cars, did not result in better QUALITY cars and trucks and there is no evidence to support the contention that it would be any different today were all the foreign owned nameplates to suddenly disappear.

Even if quality was not an issue, efficiency is another area where the foreign nameplates (including those manufactured IN THE US) have far exceeded their domestic counterparts. Again, the disparity can be laid mostly at the feet of the unions. (see the latest Harbour Report for the statistics).

What forced US owned nameplates to produce better quality cars and trucks (and they have, thank God, improved) was foreign competition AND the buying public realizing, based on personal experience, that they didn’t have to put up with shoddy automotive products coupled with ever-rising prices. Anybody who believes otherwise, please supply some Consumer Report’s or JD Power figures that show I’m wrong.

Speaking of Consumer Reports, here is some FOOD FOR THOUGHT (and maybe THIS should be the final word in this thread).

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3/8/05
Poll: U.S. Automakers Improve Reliability
Associated PressU.S. automakers improved the reliability of their products last year, but Hyundai Motor Co. and other Asian companies still make the most trouble-free vehicles, according to a survey released Monday by Consumer Reports magazine. Customers reported an average of 17 problems per 100 vehicles for 2004 models from DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., the magazine said. That was down from 18 problems per 100 in 2003. Japanese and Korean automakers had a rate of 12 problems per 100 vehicles — unchanged in the magazine's last three surveys. European automakers, some of whom have battled quality issues in recent years, had 21 problems per 100 vehicles. That's up from 20 a year ago. The survey is part of Consumer Reports' annual auto issue, scheduled to hit newsstands Tuesday. The 2004 Hyundai Sonata was the most reliable vehicle in 2004, with two problems per 100 vehicles. Consumer Reports said the Sonata is "further establishing Hyundai's remarkable turnaround from one of the least reliable brands to one of the best." As an overall brand, Hyundai recorded a reliability rating of 11 problems per 100 vehicles, tying it with Toyota Motor Corp's Lexus and Nissan Motor Co.'s Infiniti nameplates. Subaru was the most reliable brand in 2004, with an average of eight problems per 100 vehicles. Reliability can vary widely within a company. The 2004 Ford Mustang was the most reliable car made by a U.S. manufacturer, with five problems per 100 vehicles, the magazine said. But Ford's Lincoln Navigator sport utility vehicle tied with the Nissan Quest minivan as the least reliable, with 49 problems per 100 vehicles. Consumer Reports measures reliability by surveying its subscribers. The magazine collected data on a record 810,000 privately owned or leased vehicles, 20 percent more than the 675,000 vehicles included in last year's survey. The magazine asked subscribers to report serious problems such as faulty air conditioning, wind noise, electrical difficulties and transmission trouble.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

You were doing ok until you used Consumer Reports as a reference. Using CR for anything other than cat box liner is a complete waist of time. The numbers they use are based off a totally manupulative system that uses the tiniest percentile of actual owners. Look into it a little. You will find what a crock of crap CR really is.

As it goes for what you said of the UAW, I can't really disagree there too much. Not that the UAW is a bad organization, but it does control (IMO) too much of the system that makes up our corporate automotive economy. By this I'm talking about the strikes over worthless things all in the sake of the "Union's Power", and manufacturing processes that they may be opposed to, amongst other more major and minor reasons.

But lets get one thing straight, the quality is back up to and above the imports. You're only fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Robert_Nashville

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I tend to have the same viewpoint as you when it comes to Consumer Reports and most of their automobile related reports. However, such quality issues as repairs needed/accessories not working, etc are what they are best at reporting.

That said, I used the CR article because it happened to be the most recent one I had read and had handy; the most recent JD Power Initial Quality Survey report showed the same results as the CR reprot. Also to CR's credit, I would also point out, 810,000 vehicles surveyed is NOT an insignificant number.

Bottom line is, every independent source I’ve read shows two things…

1. The domestic nameplates are improving, and

2. While individual models/manufacturing plants have surpassed their Asian and European counterparts, on a nameplate by nameplate basis, (i.e. GM, FORD, TOYOTA, BMW, etc), the domestics still significantly lag behind their Asian and European competition both in terms of quality and efficiency.