Alpha.....
03-19-2009, 08:11 PM
#61
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Charlie, do you think it will ever drop to where the car's not worth doing? How many late boomers or Gen Xers will ever want a pillowy-soft Cadillac? At this point, there are still depression, war, and early boomers with money who want to buy a new Cadillac every year and never want to feel the road. Some of those people bought STSes and weren't happy.
I guess the short answer is, I don't know.
But I do think that some of the regulars here might have a pretty good sense of what my personal tastes are in cars. You'd think I'd have no use for a DTS, but I had a brand new DTS loaner recently and loved it.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...&highlight=dts
...I loved it!
Yup, you heard right. Okay, it's no CTS or 5 series, and it's architecturally pretty old, but if you're looking for a roomy, comfortable and relaxing car to drive, with a really nice interior, this is the car.
These are the wheels to take if you're driving cross-country. The interior is really, really nice, I think. Tastefully done, nice materials, very attractive design. Great stereo too and very comfortable seats.
The ride is very smooth but not numb, if you know what I mean. Perfectly tuned for the kind of car it is. And you know, it handles pretty good too. Well, if you take down some twisties at 10/10ths (oh yes I did ) the all-season tires protest and squeal abit and the front starts understeering. Actually, it's kind of fun modulating that understeer with the throttle and brakes and pushing through it. I mean, it's almost tossable in a big honkin' Cadillac sort of way. The brakes BTW are great.
I love the powertrain. The Northstar smoothly provides more than ample power to move this Caddy around with authority and the exhaust note is intoxicating. And the 4 speed trans it's mated to, works absolutely flawlessly. Rumor has it that the DI 3.6 will be replacing the Northstar in the DTS soon. Big mistake if you ask me. Eventhough the 3.6 will produce more power, it's no match for the Northstar's torque or smoothness.
You know, I kinda hated to turn it in....
Yup, you heard right. Okay, it's no CTS or 5 series, and it's architecturally pretty old, but if you're looking for a roomy, comfortable and relaxing car to drive, with a really nice interior, this is the car.
These are the wheels to take if you're driving cross-country. The interior is really, really nice, I think. Tastefully done, nice materials, very attractive design. Great stereo too and very comfortable seats.
The ride is very smooth but not numb, if you know what I mean. Perfectly tuned for the kind of car it is. And you know, it handles pretty good too. Well, if you take down some twisties at 10/10ths (oh yes I did ) the all-season tires protest and squeal abit and the front starts understeering. Actually, it's kind of fun modulating that understeer with the throttle and brakes and pushing through it. I mean, it's almost tossable in a big honkin' Cadillac sort of way. The brakes BTW are great.
I love the powertrain. The Northstar smoothly provides more than ample power to move this Caddy around with authority and the exhaust note is intoxicating. And the 4 speed trans it's mated to, works absolutely flawlessly. Rumor has it that the DI 3.6 will be replacing the Northstar in the DTS soon. Big mistake if you ask me. Eventhough the 3.6 will produce more power, it's no match for the Northstar's torque or smoothness.
You know, I kinda hated to turn it in....
03-19-2009, 08:59 PM
#62
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Location: Santa Clara, CA
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I was reading an old C&D this afternoon. It had a test of the then-new C350 and a preview of the C63. While the bare engine in the C63 weighs about 80 pounds more than the 3.5l engine, there's about 300-400 pounds between the two models. The article describes other changes between the regular C and the C63.
It was an interesting read and pointed out the difference between just shoehorning a bigger engine in like the aftermarket companies do versus the redesign that the OEM needs to do.
http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_g...t_drive_review
One obvious takeaway is that if you put the 3.5 V6 into a C63, you'd have a ~3900 pound C35, which would be quite overweight compared to the 3671 pound C350 that C&D tested.
That makes me wonder how much of the CTS's portliness is due to sharing hard parts with the CTS-V, which is competitive weight-wise with other 550hp 4-doors.
03-19-2009, 09:01 PM
#63
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I guess the short answer is, I don't know.
But I do think that some of the regulars here might have a pretty good sense of what my personal tastes are in cars. You'd think I'd have no use for a DTS, but I had a brand new DTS loaner recently and loved it.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...&highlight=dts
But I do think that some of the regulars here might have a pretty good sense of what my personal tastes are in cars. You'd think I'd have no use for a DTS, but I had a brand new DTS loaner recently and loved it.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...&highlight=dts
There are a lot of cars that I like, but a much smaller number that will pry loose my $$.
03-19-2009, 10:01 PM
#64
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No way would I trade in my CTS for one. But I can see how it would appeal perfectly to a certain segment.
03-19-2009, 10:25 PM
#65
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03-20-2009, 10:37 AM
#66
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And really, I don't need to go crazy over every single product Cadillac markets. Like when some people were in an uproar that the Escalade will move from GMT900 to Lambda. My personal view? Eh, whatever.
But what does hit the BULLSEYE with me, will hopefully be Alpha. And in more than just one respect. I mean, I could see myself one day owning a Caddy Alpha sedan as a daily driver and also a ***** to the walls Alpha Z/28 as a weekend toy.
What Cadillac ends up doing with the DTS's replacement - yes, I'll follow with interest. What GM does with Alpha --- WELL, that's something I'll be invested in.
03-20-2009, 10:48 AM
#67
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There's probably still money in an old-style Cadillac, though I would think the market for that kind of car will drop every year.
Charlie, do you think it will ever drop to where the car's not worth doing? How many late boomers or Gen Xers will ever want a pillowy-soft Cadillac? At this point, there are still depression, war, and early boomers with money who want to buy a new Cadillac every year and never want to feel the road. Some of those people bought STSes and weren't happy.
Charlie, do you think it will ever drop to where the car's not worth doing? How many late boomers or Gen Xers will ever want a pillowy-soft Cadillac? At this point, there are still depression, war, and early boomers with money who want to buy a new Cadillac every year and never want to feel the road. Some of those people bought STSes and weren't happy.
Then there's the limo, executive fleet, and livery service markets.
Simply because you or I wouldn't trade in our Camaro or whatever for one doesn't mean it can't be a success. I'm sure Charlie wouldn't trade in his CTS for a Camry or Accord either (if he want's to keep my respect, whatever that's worth
), but both cars are hugely popular. Most people want to get between 2 points as comfortably as possible.There's always going to be a market for cars like the DTS and Town Car.
Last edited by guionM; 03-20-2009 at 10:56 AM.
03-20-2009, 11:22 AM
#68
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Back in college a buddy of mine had a 72 De Ville. There's just something sweet about driving around in a big four-door Caddy... even if it does feel like you're piloting a land yacht. 
Of course, the experience was even better in the summer after he cut the roof off, turning it into a roadster.
Of course, the experience was even better in the summer after he cut the roof off, turning it into a roadster.
03-20-2009, 06:34 PM
#69
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As long as people are getting older and have various tastes, there will be a market for large Cadillacs that ride nice. There's even some younger-than-retired people that like soft riding cars.
Then there's the limo, executive fleet, and livery service markets.
Simply because you or I wouldn't trade in our Camaro or whatever for one doesn't mean it can't be a success. I'm sure Charlie wouldn't trade in his CTS for a Camry or Accord either (if he want's to keep my respect, whatever that's worth ), but both cars are hugely popular. Most people want to get between 2 points as comfortably as possible.
There's always going to be a market for cars like the DTS and Town Car.
Then there's the limo, executive fleet, and livery service markets.
Simply because you or I wouldn't trade in our Camaro or whatever for one doesn't mean it can't be a success. I'm sure Charlie wouldn't trade in his CTS for a Camry or Accord either (if he want's to keep my respect, whatever that's worth
), but both cars are hugely popular. Most people want to get between 2 points as comfortably as possible.There's always going to be a market for cars like the DTS and Town Car.
I agree with Charlie that while I'll observe with interest, the Alpha Caddy (or maybe Chevy) is the one that would appeal.
03-20-2009, 07:34 PM
#70
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I understand that. But I think it will be hard for Cadillac to do the split-personality thing and sell sporty and pillowy luxury in the same dealership. I mean, you can't get a big, soft car from Mercedes and BMW. The problem may be only perception, but perception is important, especially in the luxury market.
I agree with Charlie that while I'll observe with interest, the Alpha Caddy (or maybe Chevy) is the one that would appeal.
I agree with Charlie that while I'll observe with interest, the Alpha Caddy (or maybe Chevy) is the one that would appeal.
Till about 4 months ago, Cadillac was carrying out the split personality thing very well over most the past decade. CTSs and DTSs were running very close to the same in sales most of the time I looked at sales numbers.
Also, the same showroom that had the fluffy riding, easygoing Cadillac DTS also had a set of 3 V-series cars that would burn the pavement, and take corners at speeds that would make a traditional Cadillac DTS buyer need a medical team complete with a charged defribulator standing by after riding shotgun for a demonstration test ride.
Even a Northstar DTS is capable of smoking tires save for the traction control computer.
I saw Escalades with 20" in Carmel of all places... and they weren't being driven by youngsters with bling either. Then I go back to Pittsburh to visit, and I see Cadillac's with taseless vinyl roofs driven by blue collar retirees. I drive to Vegas and I'm running against a grey haired guy in a CTSv at over 140.
If anyone can pull off a split-personality stunt...... it's Cadillac!!!
Last edited by guionM; 03-20-2009 at 07:47 PM.
03-20-2009, 09:08 PM
#71
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I hope you're right (and you make a good point). I wonder how many sales the CTS gets from BMW and Mercedes cross shoppers. People I work with, who are much more the BMW/Mercedes crowd than the Escalade or DeVille crowds (those are definitely two separate crowds) don't take Cadillac too seriously yet.
I think that matters, but I don't know how much.
I think that matters, but I don't know how much.
05-05-2009, 12:40 AM
#75
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I hope you're right (and you make a good point). I wonder how many sales the CTS gets from BMW and Mercedes cross shoppers. People I work with, who are much more the BMW/Mercedes crowd than the Escalade or DeVille crowds (those are definitely two separate crowds) don't take Cadillac too seriously yet.
I think that matters, but I don't know how much.
I think that matters, but I don't know how much.
The trick is to sell cars to blue hairs without looking like you are selling cars to blue hairs. I think a really well executed Epsilon Cadillac could be a godsend to the brand, even if Car & Driver disagrees.
Also any news about Alpha moving along is good news!