guionM

I'm sure a V8 will fit (it will even fit in the Solstice & Sky).

But like those 2 Kappas, that doesn't automatically mean it will roll off the showroom floor with one.

Alpha is apparently back on. I heard it earlier & dismissed it because it came from a single individual at GM. But, Bob Lutz himself spilled it when he pointed out that the Camaro would need a new RWD chassis.

However, I wouldn't exactly call Zeta a priority yet. We're talking about a car that's still at the very least, 5 years away (at least here in the US).

I will grant that as far as architectures go, the only new one on the horizon right now is apparently the RWD Alpha (Espilon & Delta currently have no replacement planned for at least another 11-12 years!) and maybe a C7.

But don't break out the champaign over it being a priority till we get down to the 3 year mark. GM needs it's money to fund new products. It has at the very least, 10 new cars including the new DTS, Regal, Lucerne, Volt, Cruize, Impala, reskinned Malibu, and an entry level Cadillac sedan, in addition to the number of new models we already know about due to come out over the next 12 months.

Lutz has indicated that GM has until late next decade to get this new RWD car out, meaning there's plenty of opening to see it postponed again.

guionM

I'm sure a V8 will fit (it will even fit in the Solstice & Sky).

But like those 2 Kappas, that doesn't automatically mean it will roll off the showroom floor with one.

Yea, yea, yea.

Actually, the Espilon contingent had won, and the decision had already thrown a couple of planned Alpha cars over to FWD.

If it wasn't for CAFE being jacked up and GM going into financial nuclear meltdown, and looking at losing it's global empire, I don't think we'd be talking about Alpha in a positive light right now.


By the time a Alpha Camaro might come out, GM's DI V6 would have been out pretty close to a decade. If the Camaro V6 is highly successful (which I'm betting it will be) there will no doubt be massive aftermarket for the engine.

As for making all it can, that's not true according to GM powertrain. At least 1 individual feels there is the potential for at least another 50 horsepower in NA form.... Then we can start talking turbos and superchargers. Both of which can be programed to pass CAFE's testing standards in a way which those engines get the same mileage as the NA V6 (which is why Ford is running to EcoBoost as fast as it can), regardless as to what you might actually get on the road.

The connection to the V8 is more psychological than anything else. A good V6 in a light weight car will do every bit as good as 422 horsepower in a 3900 pound car.

EXACTLY!

I think we'd be estactic simply if Pontiac survives.

But to answer your question, although nothing is final, the plan is to keep G8, Solstice, and Vibe.


The only way I see Pontiac getting Alpha is if GM-NA replaces the G8 with an Alpha based RWD sedan....Not a long shot, and not far fetched either.

The G8 would be the only GM sedan here in the US still made that could potentially move to Alpha without wasting a still new the existing model (Lacrosse, Impala, Regal, Lucerne would all still be too new by 2013, G6 & Aura should be dead).

teal98

Can you explain this? How did GM's problems help Alpha's case?

turbo200

what I can surmise from comments from the well informed: Epsilon was not originally developed at GMNA, new programs and new platforms GM is working on are Alpha exclusively pretty much. they are choosing to continue what is already in development. GM Europe will probably continue to develop Epsilon/Delta, and if GM splits from them entirely they can pay them for that work [although since GM owns the intellectual rights, Opel will have to pay licensing for using the platforms]. I think GM is just doing this not to keep thier eggs in one basket, AND to replenish development at thier crown jewel, Chevrolet and Cadillac.

guionM

Turbo's pretty much on target.

Espilon's homeroom (development center) is at Opel, the center of GM Europe. GM North America was of the mindset that to conserve money, Espilon was a better deal than Alpha because it used existing components and didn't require spending for engineering. Money was already spent on Espilon 2, so in their view, this chassis overlapped Alpha. Besides, GM was already in financial trouble.

When the proverbial "stuffing" hit the fan, GM Europe (via Opel and Saab) began the process of separating itself from GM North America. Although both own the Espilon (& Delta) architecture, Opel is Espilon's homeroom, and therefore the place where Espilon's future development takes place.

Although it's purely speculation as to how the GM-Opel split will pan out, it's pretty certain that GM North America would rather be dependent on Opel for 1 chassis instead of 2.

Alpha was already in preliminary development, it could cover a potential round of large car downsizing due to increased CAFE standards, and although Holden is the homeroom for GM's RWD programs (including Alpha) GM North America is taking a very active role this time (Zeta was a Holden developed architecture that GM-NA essentially borrowed).

If it wasn't for increased CAFE standards and GM's global empire splintering, Alpha might have been postponed till the very end of the decade as GM turned pennywise and dollarfoolish as it creeped along saving money by postponement and cancellation.

The past couple of months have really shaken GM up.... and I mean really shaken them up!

I think we're finally going to start seeing some coherent policy and management for a change within a couple of months.

teal98

Thanks for the explanation (and to Turbo too). I really hope this is a harbinger and not a canard.

Z284ever

A couple of things....


I am not aware of any proposed Alpha variants which are going to Epsilon. None. Yes, there was a faction which pushed for a SWB EPII as Cadillac's entry model, (rather than Alpha). Hey, why not? It'd be really cheap to do, and you could charge more for the Cadillac Regal than the Buick Regal ---- what could go wrong? [insert Alfred E. Neuman smilie here]. My sources tell me that this proposal never got out of the gate......thankfully.

Alpha has been chugging along for a couple of years now, with no real sense of urgency. I think when the new CAFE standards were passed and gas hit 4-5 bucks, everything changed. Alpha was pushed to the head of the class. Any slowdown in it's development had more to do with GM not being capable of supporting it rather than any questions regarding it's relevance.

Alpha it seems, will be GM's global RWD architecture going forward --- in a much bigger way than initially planned.

teal98

I remember an article in Automotive News last year where the head of Cadillac all but admitted to an Alpha Caddy in 2011. Then a few months later came news that it was on hold. Then a few months later, the 17-page thread on GMI with this EPII Cadillac. I was getting concerned.

Now it seems than 2011 has become 2013 or 2014. Still, it's way better than EPII Cadillacs.

Any news on Holden? As GME becomes more independent, what's Holden's future? I like the idea of closer cooperation, so that future Holdens can be built with the U.S. market firmly in mind (nav screens located to pass U.S. requirements).

Z284ever

Yeah that 2011 date in the AN story was bogus. Even back then, that was WAY optimistic.

As far as Holden goes, we'll see. They'll be building Cruze's soon and the Commodore is due for freshening around '12 or so.

guionM

Believe it or not, Holden contributed alot of the pen work on the Cruize. Also, Holden is making it alongside the VE & WM.

Holden depends on Opel and Daewoo to round out their lineup in Australia, and Chevrolet depends on Holden to round out their lineup in the Middle East. Also, Holden is the center of GM's Asia-Pacific operations the way Opel is the center of GM Europe.

Once you get outside of GM North America, you see alot more interdependency.

SharpShooter_SS

I find quite a bit in here to be relieved about. I was starting to think that Caddy was about to be on the verge of sliding back into an all-FWD existence and that wouldn't be good given the progress that has been made on the back of the CTS program. This seemed acerbated by the less than stellar results generated by the RWD STS and XLR. I guess the global dream is still dead though.

As a whole it started to look like GMNA was going to essentially be just a large variety of cars based on the EPII and Delta platforms (visions of Chrysler K-cars for every market from economy to luxury come to mind). Add the brief flirtation with mainstream RWD being really nothing more than an on-paper exercise with accompanying magazine articles to whet our appetites that fizzled allowing only the G8 and Camaro to squeak through.

It all makes me cringe. At least now we have some hope that GM isn't abandoning RWD - again. GM still has to survive long enough to bring this on though so we're not out of the woods yet.

FUTURE_OF_GM

What originally came to mind for me was the DT7 and the next Impala. (A.K.A. Alpha, because of CAFE was going to be stretched and meant to replace Zeta all along) It is widely believed now that Impala (for sure) will be Epsilon and DT7 (hopefully not) will be stretched Epsilon.

Other than that, you got me.. *shrugs* I didn't even know Alpha consisted of planned models yet.

My questions are; 1) How will an independent Opel affect GM? As in, would GM eventually engineer its own replacements for Delta and Epsilon and allow Opel to fail (which it would, if it stood alone) And 2) How has this bid for independence by Opel (I thought it was GMNA that wanted to sell off Opel) affected working relationships within the organization. For example; an article recently highlighted that Ford's dumping of Mazda shares had created a very "stand offish" collaboration between the two entities.

Z284ever

GM owns ALL the technology and architectures. Opel will have to license them from GM.

Z284ever

Oh yeah Future, about the DT7...

As long as Cadillac gets Alpha, I've come to the conclusion that I'm okay with an Epsilon DT7. Especially if we see it as what it is -- a DTS replacement and not an S-Class competitor. Plus, the DT7's claim to fame won't be whether it's FWD or RWD, it'll be it's available electric motivation.

teal98

There's probably still money in an old-style Cadillac, though I would think the market for that kind of car will drop every year.

Charlie, do you think it will ever drop to where the car's not worth doing? How many late boomers or Gen Xers will ever want a pillowy-soft Cadillac? At this point, there are still depression, war, and early boomers with money who want to buy a new Cadillac every year and never want to feel the road. Some of those people bought STSes and weren't happy.