Z284ever

If the 2014 Mustang has a V8, I can guaranfreakingtee you, the pressure will be on the 6th gen for a smallblock.

What makes you say the chance of a lighter 6th gen is slimmer?

Z284ever

Nothing is really "normal" there anymore. But Alpha is a priority.


I've been told "3 series sized". But apparently a stretched version is being considered.

teal98

Yeah, but there's always pressure. Merc re-engineered the C for a V8, and Lexus did the same with the IS. But it'll cost $$$, because with a 350hp V6, only the V8 fans will be getting V8s. It's not like the 60s-80s where if you wanted something that moved you needed a V8.


Give us the Alpha. Worry about the V8 later.

SharpShooter_SS

This is all very promising and for once both Guion and z284ever are not at odds on the whole Alpha on/off state. Two days in a row of good news re GM, it's been a little while. First the v6 Camaro is publicized as achieving 29mpg on the highway, the Camaro actually starts production and now word leaks out that Alpha is on again.

Could it be that it may soon be safe to raise our heads out of the foxholes yet?

91_z28_4me

If an LSx can fit into Kappa (which was supposedly designed for the Ecotec only) then why would we think that a V8 won't fit into Alpha (which will be long enough for an Ecotec and wide enough for a DOHC V6)?

teal98

GM doesn't offer a Kappa v8. There's a difference between 'can fit' and a full factory warranty.
Whatever Alpha turns out to be, I wouldn't be surprised if someone manages to fit a V8 into it, even if it's not GM. Remember that people managed to put V8s into Vegas, though none came from the factory that way. Same with the Miata.

However, a 90 degree V8 will be wider than a 60 degree V6 and longer than an I4, and to get a factory warranty, every part of the car will need to be strong enough to handle it.

It surely can be done, but how many people would buy a car so equipped and how much would it cost? I would not expect GM to design just one basic chassis and put the three different engine configs in it, as that would carry way too much weight for the I4.

To be competitive, I'm thinking that even the I4 and V6 versions could have separate chassis, though maybe the large I4 turbo could share with the N/A V6.

So then it would come down to the cost to do a V8 version versus expected revenue and margin.

Z284ever

Hard to argue with that.

My man Guy is finally coming around.

formula79

While the idea is sound...I do not like the idea of giving up a V8..especially in the Camaro. Remember these are enthusiast cars...people like to mod them. One of the nice things about the LSx is it's aftermarket. I can't see the 3.5L ever getting a strong aftermarket because of the direct injection, and the fact it is already pretty much making what it can. All the G8 V6 guys are clamoring for a CAI and no one will even make one yet.

teal98

Regarding Alpha, you're getting way ahead of where you need to be thinking. Alpha is about a small, light, RWD family of cars. Read good gas mileage, lithe handling, etc. If Chevy, and presumably Holden, are getting versions of this, it also has to be affordable.

A V8 engine is pretty far from that set of goals, especially if we're talking 2014.

I want GM to make this car a direct hit in the target market. After that is done, if a skunkworks project team manages to fit a V8 into it, and Chevy slaps on Camaro Z28 badges so much the better But let's be real about what the purpose of Alpha is.

Regarding the V6, over on GMI, someone posted recently about gains in power on a CTS with some Corsa parts (intake and exhaust?). I think there's room for the aftermarket with the V6.

99SilverSS

Well through the last few months I don't think Alpha was on hold it was GM. If they survive then Alpha should.

If Alpha is a true fully designed and engineered platform it can be altered in many ways so just like Zeta underpinning Holden sedans and Chevy coupes there should be an option for V8. So if that is the direction GM decides to take for Alpha or the last chance the Camaro has then we'll have to see.
The question will be if the gains made by Alpha's perceived weight loss over Zeta will be given up for structural reinforcements to handle the pull and twist of potentially 500 small block GM horsepower by then.

Z284ever

There is so much truth in that statement.

Z284ever

This whole V8 thing, honestly I don't know how it would ultimately play out. I'll tell you though, the thought of an SN95 sized Camaro fitted with an LSx is virtually irresistible to me.

Let's hope for a combo of things.

1) GM survives.

2) No hiccups in further Alpha development.

3) The 5th gen Camaro sells well enough to spur approval for a 6th gen.

4) The next gen (2014) Mustang gets a V8.

5) People like us as well as people within GM, apply the screws.

IREngineer

You know, I'm not totally sold on a V8 in Alpha. I know, "turn in your man card, wussy-boy", but I've owned 2 4th gen V8's (94Z and 00SS) so I think I have a little room to talk. I am deathly afraid that a V8 will = 150+lbs. I'd rather see the following:

2.4L DI 4 @190-200hp = 3400lb LS/LT 6th gen
3.6 or 4.0L V6 @320-350hp = 3500lb SS 6th gen
TT3.6L @400hp and a torque table (not curve) ala LNF = 3550lb Z28 6th gen (weight savings)

I see that being better than a 5.0L Gen V V8 pushing 400hp in a 3600-3650lb Z28. Protecting for this V8 would also add roughly 50-100lbs to the other models in my rough estimation.

Flame away...

teal98

Yes, I think that's the sort of scenario we'd need. To that, I'd add

6) CO2 emission regulations don't make V8s prohibitively expensive to sell

7) Gasoline stays relatively inexpensive, so that there is a demand for V8s

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm just happy for now to hear Alpha's back on. I don't think we can overstate the importance of this car for GM being relevant to enthusiasts, and GM will need those.

teal98

That's why you can't protect for it. Alpha can't afford that kind of extra weight when a V8 would be in a tiny percentage of cars. I also can't see the program being approved with that plan.

That would all imply some re-engineering for a V8 model, and a somewhat difficult business case. But Charlie's list (with my enhancements ) would provide the most support for that case.

I know the end of the V8 has been predicted before, and it didn't come true. But at that time V6s were producing 150hp, not over 300. And we weren't facing the combination of unreliable oil supply and global warming worry that we're facing now. I really think that V8s will be quite rare in cars in 6 years.