Alpha.....
05-19-2009, 05:41 PM
#243
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While BMW does add a lot of equipment that GM would never put on a Chevrolet braded Alpha, BMW offsets a lot of that weight with higher strength steel and aluminum. Shedding weight with lightweight alloys does not get you more sales - but luxury options do.
Alpha could be a rwd sedan for 3600lb (3500lb if someone gets creative) without spiking cost through the roof. Too bad your engine will have to be an LNF. In the end, thats still LT1 Camaro performance (which is now - 15 years later - still more than your average American can safely handle). Some people are okay with that. Some people are not.
Then you could have an "Alpha HD" for Camaro. The chassis would be reinforced for more power, but will add cost and weight. You'll still end up with a 3800lb-3900lb Camaro SS - but you could get a 6th gen with a V8.
Alpha could be a rwd sedan for 3600lb (3500lb if someone gets creative) without spiking cost through the roof. Too bad your engine will have to be an LNF. In the end, thats still LT1 Camaro performance (which is now - 15 years later - still more than your average American can safely handle). Some people are okay with that. Some people are not.
Then you could have an "Alpha HD" for Camaro. The chassis would be reinforced for more power, but will add cost and weight. You'll still end up with a 3800lb-3900lb Camaro SS - but you could get a 6th gen with a V8.
05-19-2009, 06:02 PM
#244
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There is no point in investing one thin dime or one minute of effort into Alpha if in the end it weighs the same as Zeta. I can assure you all, that it would be considered a big fat FAILURE if that were to be the case.
05-19-2009, 08:29 PM
#245
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I should think the big savings will come from optimizing for smaller power plants. Just looking at what's out there, you can see 6 cylinder RWD sedans at around 3500-3600 pounds. It's just that when you add the V8, they're back up at 3800-3900 pounds.
3500 pounds (assuming creativity) for a 4-5 seat RWD is much lighter than Zeta and should be very competitive with other vehicles of similar description. That's essentially at the low end of where the 328i, Lexus IS, etc., are today. I'm assuming a 6 speed auto, leather, 18" wheels, power seat, etc.
When you add the V8 back in with 20s....
05-20-2009, 09:18 AM
#246
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So dramatic.
I should think the big savings will come from optimizing for smaller power plants. Just looking at what's out there, you can see 6 cylinder RWD sedans at around 3500-3600 pounds. It's just that when you add the V8, they're back up at 3800-3900 pounds.
3500 pounds (assuming creativity) for a 4-5 seat RWD is much lighter than Zeta and should be very competitive with other vehicles of similar description. That's essentially at the low end of where the 328i, Lexus IS, etc., are today. I'm assuming a 6 speed auto, leather, 18" wheels, power seat, etc.
When you add the V8 back in with 20s....
I should think the big savings will come from optimizing for smaller power plants. Just looking at what's out there, you can see 6 cylinder RWD sedans at around 3500-3600 pounds. It's just that when you add the V8, they're back up at 3800-3900 pounds.
3500 pounds (assuming creativity) for a 4-5 seat RWD is much lighter than Zeta and should be very competitive with other vehicles of similar description. That's essentially at the low end of where the 328i, Lexus IS, etc., are today. I'm assuming a 6 speed auto, leather, 18" wheels, power seat, etc.
When you add the V8 back in with 20s....
How ridiculous would it be if GM went through the effort of designing Alpha, PRECISELY to reduce mass, and then delivered a product which weighed as much as the current Camaro? You wouldn't call that one big FAIL?
BTW, those highly contented, luxury cars you bring up, weigh:
328i coupe = 3351 pounds
IS 250 = 3435 pounds
05-20-2009, 04:00 PM
#247
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How ridiculous would it be if GM went through the effort of designing Alpha, PRECISELY to reduce mass, and then delivered a product which weighed as much as the current Camaro? You wouldn't call that one big FAIL?
BTW, those highly contented, luxury cars you bring up, weigh:
328i coupe = 3351 pounds
IS 250 = 3435 pounds
BTW, those highly contented, luxury cars you bring up, weigh:
328i coupe = 3351 pounds
IS 250 = 3435 pounds
At 3500, I'm thinking of a typical test car with auto, etc. If it comes in lighter than that, it's all gravy.
05-20-2009, 07:22 PM
#248
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I've never seen a test of one of those that came in that light, but presumably if you actually found one without any options and with a manual transmission, that's what they'd weigh (it'd be interesting to find out). Let's just say that I'd expect Alpha to be competitive with those -- both with the 3435 pound IS250 at the low end and the 3810 pound IS-F (http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...8++Players.pdf) if they optimize for a ~400/400 high end, or possibly more if they go for more power/torque.
At 3500, I'm thinking of a typical test car with auto, etc. If it comes in lighter than that, it's all gravy.
At 3500, I'm thinking of a typical test car with auto, etc. If it comes in lighter than that, it's all gravy.
05-21-2009, 12:12 AM
#249
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That's why I was very pleasantly surprised that the measured curb weight of the Camaro SS actually came in very close to Chevy's preproduction number.
06-09-2009, 08:42 PM
#250
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GM: The Alpha compact rear-drive platform for Cadillac remains on hold, but it's not dead. GM looked at building the next-generation Camaro on the Alpha platform, but that's far too expensive. GM will need a new, small- to midsize, fairly lightweight RWD platform for Camaro and probably a Buick sedan.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...ure/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...ure/index.html
06-09-2009, 09:06 PM
#251
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06-09-2009, 10:55 PM
#252
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06-16-2009, 05:29 PM
#253
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I'm now hearing some NASTY rumors (as I'm sure some of you are) that Cadillac, as the leader of Alpha is OUT PRICING the platform just like they did with the disaster (as in scope and use) that we know as Sigma.
Looks like Alpha might be too expensive for Chevrolet (not sure how Buick factors in) and may only be used at Cadillac for 2-3 models.
Keep in mind, none of this is confirmed. But if history speaks for itself, it wouldn't surprise me.
Looks like Alpha might be too expensive for Chevrolet (not sure how Buick factors in) and may only be used at Cadillac for 2-3 models.
Keep in mind, none of this is confirmed. But if history speaks for itself, it wouldn't surprise me.
06-16-2009, 06:06 PM
#254
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I'm now hearing some NASTY rumors (as I'm sure some of you are) that Cadillac, as the leader of Alpha is OUT PRICING the platform just like they did with the disaster (as in scope and use) that we know as Sigma.
Looks like Alpha might be too expensive for Chevrolet (not sure how Buick factors in) and may only be used at Cadillac for 2-3 models.
Keep in mind, none of this is confirmed. But if history speaks for itself, it wouldn't surprise me.
Looks like Alpha might be too expensive for Chevrolet (not sure how Buick factors in) and may only be used at Cadillac for 2-3 models.
Keep in mind, none of this is confirmed. But if history speaks for itself, it wouldn't surprise me.