How so?

I don't agree 100% with his method, but I applaud him for his conviction to his beliefs. Remember, you don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

BTW - I doubt the guy did this out of anger and fear. Most dealers are pretty well-off anyway, and running 1-minute spots on over a dozen stations was not free. Likewise, he might be angry with the economy and the situation, but producing and scheduling a 1-minute spot, editing, and airing it is not a "knee-jerk" reaction.

I still have not seen the actual ad yet, but I will admit that the Rice-ready / road ready" comment was not beneficial to his argument. I truely hope he has some "educated" people help him produce a follow-up that is loaded with data and facts to back him up now. You know - a Ross-Perot kind of thing with charts and graphs.

 

call em like i see em - you'll just keep going into a 36 page e-war debate about why your point of view is correct and at the end neither of you will agree on anything.

Are pointless arguments fun for you? Or you just have alot of spare time?

 

Frankly, your writing style, word choices/combinations sometimes makes it difficult to decipher your meaning. Nevertheless, I’ll take a stab at replying to some of your statements – I have no expectation of changing your mind but perhaps some others will find it useful.


That is an opinion which you are perfectly entitled to hold. However, I suspect your opinion is based more on fear and what you’ve heard other people say than on any quantifiable/objective evaluation.

Suffice it to say, I simply don’t agree.

In any case, I submit that it is no one's "policy"; what it is, is a reality fueled by many different things (technology being a major component)...as such, no one, not even the United States can afford to ignore it or try to hide from it (such as through protectionism)...economies either find a way to compete and thrive in it or will be swept to economic obscurity.


In the past thirty years, transplant automakers have built 70 or so manufacturing facilities and invested over $40Billion in the U.S.; directly employs tens of thousands and employs many, many times that indirectly…if that’s a “poison pill” in your mind then so be it.

And BTW, had Congress (at the behest of the Detroit Three/the UAW) not put up those tariffs, there would be no tariffs that foreign companies needed to get around. Also, presenting “getting around tariffs” as the sole motivation for transplants to build plants here is a very myopic way to look at the issue.


I expressed nothing of the kind; quite the opposite in fact and no one is “sending our citizens into poverty”.


What is insane is your ability to construe that I said anything of the kind or requested a “reward” or a “pat on the back” or to be called “patriotic”…perhaps you need to re-read what I actually did write.

What is insane (and incredibly shallow) is to infer someone’s patriotism or lack thereof to what nameplate is on a vehicle they choose to buy.

I assume that the “job losses” you are referring to are in the domestic automotive sector? If so then let’s be clear here shall we; apart from the business decisions that the Detroit Three and the UAW have made since the 1960s; there is ZERO reason by GM, Ford and Chrysler can’t be vibrant and extremely profitable…if you want to find someone to blame for Detroit’s troubles, you need to look to GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Any challenges presented to Detroit by foreign competition could have been met and met successfully; the fact the Detroit chose not to do so is not the fault of the foreign competition.


I’m sure accusations made in internet postings carry a lot of weight with you but tell me, what evidence of such violations do you have beyond internet postings? Can you cite even one case where a transplant nameplate was found guilty of violating any of those “state” and “local” laws? If there are any such cases, were the guilty parties punished?


Just who are you to decide, on behalf of these “people”, that they are being paid less than they are worth or are being taken advantage of? This may come as a shock to you but there was employment in states with transplant facilities before the transplant facilities were built – you make it sound as if these poor, disadvantaged, people either work as near slaves for the big bad transplant automaker or they go on welfare!

The transplant manufacturers provide good, well-paying jobs at a competitive rate and are good corporate citizens and valued members of their communities; it isn't for you or anyone else to decide "on behalf" of those who take those jobs that they are being taken advantage of - doing so is an insult to every worker in every one of those facilities.


As I’ve said multiple times in this thread and many more times in the past, I don’t like the “incentive package” business. However, if you want to change the system; stop blaming the companies who take advantage of it (including GM) and start electing different mayors, county commissioners and governors.


I didn’t write the thesaurus; I simply quoted it…I’m sorry it made you sad.


Strange, one might say convenient, how you completely ignore the majority of my post that you are referencing.

Apparently, taking raw rolled steel and stamping it into body parts and frames and forging engine parts is just “assembling” to you…if so then you need more help than Merriam can give you.

In any case, if you truly think that what goes on in a typical GM plant is substantially different that what goes on in a Toyota/Honda/Nissan/VW/BMW plant then you either haven’t been in those plants or you just refuse to let facts get in the way of your opinion.

 

Some would call it discussion (which is what discussion forums are usually about).

Do I enjoy the discussions? Yes...if I didn't, I'd just read journals and look at raw data.

In any case, I don't seek to annoy you but if my posts do then sorry!

 

What you call a "discussion" other people call abrasive and inappropriate. Your comments and constant challenges are more baiting than anything and no one enjoys the constant frustration. Sorry or not, you have worn out your welcome. This site is PRO-GM as you are well aware of yet you are clearly not on this site for that reason. Presenting the truth in a respectful and unbiased manner or in a method that is beneficial to the goal of this site is one thing, but leading people into argument repeatedly is another. Regardless if your views are true or not, the way they are presented rubs this community the wrong way and does no good except for you and your desire to watch people struggle to prove a counterpoint. Thank you for your contributions but they are better suited elsewhere and are no longer required here. Anyone else can follow if they do not understand the reasoning and benefit to this community as a result of this decision which is not open for further argument and any correspondence regarding this will be disregarded.

 

In the same spirit, while I have no expectation of changing your mind, I think other people might find what I have to say interesting.

$40 billion and tens of thousands of jobs in 30 years?

If I have counted correctly, GM alone operates or has operated 72 plants in the U.S, 47 of which are still operating today. One of those is scheduled to close in a couple weeks, so call it 46. The oldest of these still in operation began in 1919. GM's "Buick City" plant in Flint, MI was in operation for 95 years before closing in '99.

Continuing on, Ford has 40 plants, 30 of which are still in operation, with three scheduled to close in the next couple years. The oldest began operation in 1924.

Chrysler has 22 currently in operation, but I didn't find a list of former plants or any scheduled closings. Chrysler's oldest currently operating plant opened in 1917.

Toyota has six, plus two they don't own but they have contracted to build their cars. That's counting at least one that isn't even completed yet. The oldest of these began producing cars in 1988. Honda has two, the oldest of which was opened in 1982.

I don't think I even need to find the actual financials and do the math for you to get the point. The measure of foreign automakers' contributions to the U.S. economy seem like big numbers, but only until you compare them to those of the domestic automakers, and then they seem ridiculously small.

 

OK, considering you're replying to a post made by a guy who's now banned from this site, don't you think that kind of goes without saying? It's not like he's around to read what you said and then reply "You know, I stand corrected. You're completely right."

 

I don't doubt some dealerships are well off but in general i think they are well aware of the bad position they are in. I do think the "buy american" rally cry falls on deaf ears. I've never thought this encouraged any new customers. Just stirring the emotions of those existing Big three customers.

This ad may have been well thought out but it comes across to me as a rant. It also strikes a nerve in some. How that encourages anyone to spend hard earned money i don't know. More importantly how does that sell product to someone new ? A previous Toyota owner for example.

 

To say this guy's marketing approach is abrasive would be an understatement.

I don't know if I can blame him though. The domestics have been using quality studies and announcing awards won in their advertisements for a while now - I'm not even sure it's doing any good. I suppose it's time to just come out and say what a lot of domestic fans have been thinking for the better part of 30 years now. At least it plays to some emotions.

 

Banning him doesn't prevent him from reading -- only from posting.

Besides, while it doesn't appear to be (based on Jason's post), it could be a temporary ban.

 

Of course people should have freedom of choice to buy whatever they want to buy. The problem is that a majority of people (ignorant consumers) make their choice based on their false assumption of "imports are flawless/domestics fall apart". I am convinced that if the everyday consumer had a clue, a higher percentage would buy American-owned auto company products.

 

According to the federal governments' website, nhtsa.com, for the 1998 model year: the Lumina and Camry are tied at recalls of two each, while the Accord has sixteen.

 

What a brilliant statement, thanks for letting me know...

 

Okay, guys...no need to keep the griping going. Back on the subject, please.

 

I agree his use of the term "rice", opens the guy up, to the use of the race card by "journalists". I don't think this makes him an idiot, or racist, just a passionate guy IMO. Who for whatever reason "get's it". So maybe he could have articulated his point a little better. Doesn't make his point any less valid. He stuck his neck out and I applaud that!! I would urge any Americans in that area considering purchasing a Ford, to get down there and give this brave dealer a shot at your business! And also props to ProudPony for post #44.....>>> Bravo man!!