teal98

Which figures are you using in this comparison? The M6 Camaro is 16/24 versus 15/23 for the GTO. The automatic Camaro SS is 16/25 versus 14/19 for the auto GTO.

Maybe you were comparing 2007- figures with 2008+ figures. If you use the same numbers, the Camaro is either a little better or much better, depending on transmission.

Z284ever

Well, I'd say that size matters.

A 7 Series drives nice, but a 5 Series drives better, and a 3 Series better still. When I think back on all of the cars which created that magic for me, they were all at the smaller end of the spectrum. Maybe nor all small per se, but small enough to feel light on their feet.

Z284ever

First, I think Hyundai has been pretty happy with Genesis coupe sales.

Second, the 6th gen should be substantialy lighter than a 5th gen, so it's not like GM will be dropping an Ecotec into the current car.

Third, I think you know how it'd work with a turbo V6 Branden. It doesn't matter that a turbo V6 costs more than a smallblock, you'll still pay thousands more for the V8. They've got you and everyone else pegged, and your post pretty much verifies that.

Z28x

At less than 1000 a month? I guess it depends on what their original goal was.

jcamere94z28

I don't agree with you there....


A good friend of mine has a LS2 GTO manual with a Borla exhaust... we raced on the 1/8 about 4 months ago... I had about 5k on my SS M6.. stock.

Every single time he would get the jump on me... like no ones business (my 1st time racing the Camaro) by the end of the 1/8 I would be walking him hard and passing him getting to the end of it before he did. He is a good driver... and knows his car better but I just walked him every single time.

another friend with another GTO got about the same time on the 1/8... on the 1/4 I would have just walked them both even harder.

Z284ever

I don't know what the coupe's sales numbers are or what Hyundai's sales goal is, but everything I read from Hyundai has indicated that they are happy and that dealers are struggling to keep up with it's demand.

Beyond that, I have no idea. The point being, that Branden used that as an example of a failed 2+2, RWD, turbo 4, and I'm not really sure of how fair of a representation that is.

teal98

It's available at a discount, like most cars. At some point, you'll be able to get similar discounts on a Camaro, and people who want to will probably write about that in a negative light. It took at least 18 months, IIRC, to see Chrysler 300Cs on sale, but now you can find them for $6000 or more off list, if you're patient and watch the classifieds.

Z28Wilson

It's not surprising to me that Hyundai would put a smiling face to Genesis sales. What are they supposed to say, this car is horribly underperforming our expectations? I don't know that it's the case mind you....

What kid of capacity is the Genesis line set up for? That would go a ways toward determining what expectation vs. demand really is.

Z284ever

Don't know.

But that's not the point. The point is the implication that a turbo 4 Camaro ( or Mustang for that matter) would be a failure, because the Genesis coupe is sold in mumbers smaller than Camaro/Mustang, is a flawed hypothesis on various levels. The Genesis coupe also comes in a V6 version BTW. The same reasoning would apply to that as well, don't you think?

HAZ-Matt

A generalization, but as you trend down in ages, I think you will find a greater percentage of buyers who understand that you can have a performance vehicle with less than 8 cylinders. I agree, without knowing Hyundai's sales goals it is hard to say whether or not the Genesis is a failure or a success. I doubt they imagined showing up with a brand new car and selling more units than Mustang.

Remember, the Genesis is not a $22,000 Corvette destroyer, nor was it conceived to be. If you go onto Hyundai's site and use their comparison tool with the Genesis 2.0T then they three default competitors are Mustang V6, Mitsubishi Eclipse, and Nissan Altima Coupe. The Genesis is an inexpensive sporty car. The 3.8 V6 Version is in an odd position, sort of where the 350Z used to be (the 370Z seems to be a little more expensive, starting in the $30's these days), right below the Mustang GT or Camaro SS. If I was looking for sporty cars in the $20's, the Genesis would certainly be on my short list (including Mustang V6 and Camaro V6). I think the 2.0T is the better buy anyway, sort of like back in the beginning of the decade with say a Jetta where you could go with the five valve 1.8T, although the top of the line from the factory was the NA VR6... the 1.8T was just waiting to be chipped though and was really a better performance value.

It is apples and oranges though. What will the 6th Gen hold for us? I can't say what powertrains would compel me; I am more concerned with power-weight ratio and therefore how much the thing weighs is of utmost importance. A 260HP turbo I4 in a 3500lb car is one thing, but in a 4000lb car is quite another. Likewise, a 200HP NA I4 is going to be pretty boring in a 3500lb car, and quite appalling in a 4000lb vehicle.

I also don't know how many different powertrain combos GM will have the will to offer. I bet a V8 is a near certainty at least in the top performance trim, but how many other engine architectures? Will a turbo 4 replace the NA V6 or supplement it? Would a turbo V6 supplant the V8 in the street performance slot leaving V8 a Z28 exclusive powertrain?

Maximum Bob

When it comes to power-to-weight ratios while HP is nice the main thing I look at is Torque. I always say that HP determines how fast you can go, but it's Torque that determines how fast you get there! That's why a lot of these high horse small displacement engines don't impress me. If you have 300 hp but only 200 ft./lb.'s & it takes 6500 rpm to get that you have a car that's a slug off the line unless you wind it to the moon first. Definately NOT the way I like to drive. I want to drop it in gear, mash the gas, & have it leap off the line like a surface-to-surface missile! Look at the 3rd gens, with 230 hp they didn't trap all that high at the finish BUT with 350 ft/lb's launched hard enough. And it was that kind of thing that kept them fun to drive & in demand. I'm not saying that my kind of fun is better than the other, but it's certainly just as valid.

Z284ever

Obviously, a proper power to weight ratio is a must.

I'm eager to see what powertrain combos they'll come up with. I think it's safe bet to say that a 4 of some sort (NA or turbo) will be at the entry level and a GenV smallblock will be at the top. What remains to be seen is what will be in the middle.

formula79

There are a few things screwed up here. First off..for someone who claims to bleed the Camaro so much..you sure at times overlook the obvious to impose your will.

Lets start with the basics. Everything about the 3rd and 4th gen is dead While they are great cars for the day..GM will never go in that direction stylisticly or market position wise again. From a marketing and PR stand point the 5th gen Camaro is arguably becoming the water mark for the Camaro brand. The 4th gen Camaro performed great..but most people never noticed or did not care. The 2nd and 3rd gen were cool in the day..however have not aged well. Most people think of the 1st gen as the high water mark for the Camaro..but even then it was more overshadowed by the Mustang than today. Quite simply, never has it been almost a pop culture icon.

Why does the 5th gen work? It makes people smile. It has styling that reminds them of childhood memories, apple pie, everything American and whatever. It does not have to have the best handling or performance in the world, but it has to look great and have a V8. The mustang has used the forumula for while now. This time around, GM also got the formula right and would be stupid to mess it up.

Now say GM released the currrent car as V6 only...or made the V8 expensive or limited production. There would be a revolt like you have never seen. A Camaro without an attainable V8? You thought the GTO hood scoop thing was dramatic. For the forseeable future, for Camaro to remain competitive it has to effectivly progress the tug at your heart strings styling, AND not screw with the formula (which includes a resonably attainable V8). Take away an attainable V8, and I for one will look at much harder at a Camaro purchase. Then a car like the Genesis actually becomes a viable alternative.

It actually befuddles me how quick some people are to give up a V8 in the Camaro.

As for Hyundai, they may be happy with sales..but I am pretty certain they would gladly trade with Chevrolet who is selling selling 4x as many V8 Camaros a month at $35-$40K. The simple fact is, there has never been a 4 cylinder or V6/turbo V6 RWD 2+2 coupe that has sold at the levels the current Camaro SS or Mustang GT sells. People talk like Camaro could be really cool with the tuner crowd or something....but it is not worth the market you give up by screwing with the formula.

Camaro right now it at the promised land of pony cardom in terms of image and sales. GM needs to keep that up...not make boneheaded mistakes.


GM would be STUPID to fool with the formula.

It's funny how people were claiming the Genesis would have the pony cars trembling, and how visionar

Z284ever

I'm not really sure that I understand what your saying or if you've actually read my posts.

You've pretty much stated that the V6 is a throw away model being bought only by kids, females and (my favorite), "A very stray middle age man who wants a Camaro"
Okay, so tell me, if the next gen BASE Camaro has the same power to weight as the current V6, but does it with a 4 cylinder and 35 mpg, is that going to harm the brand? Personally, I don't think so.

Also, on your previous post you state that GM is doing some pretty smart business by making you pay a $10K premium for a V8 and when I agree and say I expect that strategy to continue into the next gen car, you become alarmed say an expensive V8 will create a revolt like we've never seen. Just like on this gen car, if you want a V8 on the 6th gen, you're gonna pay - unless of course, you are a very stray middle aged man.

formula79

I am but..as usual..you are being ambiguous enough that when someone questions you, you can run the other way.

The V6 Camaro is a borderline throw away model. Despite having 300 HP and basically the same looks as the SS, it still has a "not a V8" stigma. I deal with these people every day, and I can tell you almost every SS buyer I talk to is a male, my age (29) or older. Most people who buy the V6 do so because they want a Camaro and it's what they can get. Judging by what I see at shows, at my local dealer, and around town, there are a lot more women and early 20's guys driving around V6's than V8's. And yes...there is a very stray middle age man who wants a Camaro..but won't pony up for the V8. That is the exception..not the rule.

I don't think people want a 4 cylinder in a Camaro. I would rather have a V6 get 32-33mpg and have 300HP than a 4 cylinder or turbo 4 cylinder in the 250HP range. Honestly, if you want a performance car, and fuel economy is huge..your likely not considering a Camaro anyway. These are just different crowds. I would rather have an EVO, WRX, or something with some street cred before I buy a 4 cylinder Camaro.

It has been suggested by you and others that the V8 would be limited to the top of the line halo car (maybe the next Z/28) as stated. Another person suggested that a V8 Camaro would be kind of like what a GT500 is today. Thes cars are/will be $45K plus, and are limited production (2,000 units a year in GT500's case).

If you think GM is gonna sell 100,000 Camaro's a year and only 2-3,000 of them will be V8's your smoking something. That will put the car right back in the graveyard.