$300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
12-19-2011, 07:20 PM
#1
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$300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
Having a company which builds dedicated police cars is not a terribly bad idea, especially if police officers have a lot of input. The diesel engine is also a good idea for durability, but diesel fuel isn't cheap.
DailyTech - Carbon Motors Sends Open Letter to Obama's Cabinet, Seeks $300M Loan
DailyTech - Carbon Motors Sends Open Letter to Obama's Cabinet, Seeks $300M Loan
Please sir, may we have $300 million?
The push to move the U.S. to newer technology cars and trucks that are more efficient in fuel consumption and produce fewer emissions is focused heavily on the consumer segment of the industry. In many areas, some of the most fuel consuming and polluting fleets are those for public service workers like law enforcement.
A company called Carbon Motors is soliciting the government for a loan to help it produce the first vehicle in the country specifically designed for police officers. In a letter to the members of President Obama's cabinet, the company outlines its need for a $300 million loan.
The letter reads in part:
Carbon Motors is seeking the funds in order to produce its E7 police vehicle. The car is designed to be functional, safe, and fuel-efficient. The car has a turbodiesel engine with 300hp and 420 lb-ft of torque and is specified for a durability span of 250,000 miles. The cockpit of the car is ergonomically designed for comfort and to fit all the duty gear an officer needs for the day. The car has a radiation-, chemical-, and biological-threat detection capabilities.
The E7 also steps up monitoring capabilities by including a 360-degree exterior surveillance for audio and video. The car is also designed with 180-degree interior rear compartment audio and video recording for the rear compartment of the vehicle. The car can be had with an optional license plate detection system and optional integrated ballistic protection.
The company claims the car will be safer for police officers, produce less pollution, and save money on fuel as well. Carbon Motors is likely seeing delays in a verdict on its loan application due to the third-party review process that green government auto firms are going through.
Source: Carbon Motors
The push to move the U.S. to newer technology cars and trucks that are more efficient in fuel consumption and produce fewer emissions is focused heavily on the consumer segment of the industry. In many areas, some of the most fuel consuming and polluting fleets are those for public service workers like law enforcement.
A company called Carbon Motors is soliciting the government for a loan to help it produce the first vehicle in the country specifically designed for police officers. In a letter to the members of President Obama's cabinet, the company outlines its need for a $300 million loan.
The letter reads in part:
Over two years ago, Carbon Motors filed an application for a loan of over $300 million with the Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing (ATVM) program. The ATVM direct loan program was established in a bi-partisan manner by the Bush Administration and has been carried on by the Obama Administration.
We have secured a mothballed automotive facility located in a town with unemployment at rates significantly higher than the national average – Connersville, Indiana – a victim of the fallout of automotive industry at the end of the last decade. With the ongoing criticisms aired concerning the U.S. Department of Energy's loan guarantee programs and the ATVM direct loan program, our country faces a critical decision now that will have significant impact on our first responders, taxpayers, environment, highways, our manufacturing employment base and the security of our homeland.
We have secured a mothballed automotive facility located in a town with unemployment at rates significantly higher than the national average – Connersville, Indiana – a victim of the fallout of automotive industry at the end of the last decade. With the ongoing criticisms aired concerning the U.S. Department of Energy's loan guarantee programs and the ATVM direct loan program, our country faces a critical decision now that will have significant impact on our first responders, taxpayers, environment, highways, our manufacturing employment base and the security of our homeland.
Carbon Motors is seeking the funds in order to produce its E7 police vehicle. The car is designed to be functional, safe, and fuel-efficient. The car has a turbodiesel engine with 300hp and 420 lb-ft of torque and is specified for a durability span of 250,000 miles. The cockpit of the car is ergonomically designed for comfort and to fit all the duty gear an officer needs for the day. The car has a radiation-, chemical-, and biological-threat detection capabilities.
The E7 also steps up monitoring capabilities by including a 360-degree exterior surveillance for audio and video. The car is also designed with 180-degree interior rear compartment audio and video recording for the rear compartment of the vehicle. The car can be had with an optional license plate detection system and optional integrated ballistic protection.
The company claims the car will be safer for police officers, produce less pollution, and save money on fuel as well. Carbon Motors is likely seeing delays in a verdict on its loan application due to the third-party review process that green government auto firms are going through.
Source: Carbon Motors
12-19-2011, 08:09 PM
#3
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Posts: 1,023
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
Yep.
I don't think investing $300M of the public's money in developing a nicer police car is a good use of resources at this time. Especially not when a Dodge Charger or other similar vehicle will do.
In fact, I'd be all about lobbying for smaller, more efficient police vehicles where it makes sense to have them. British police don't roll around in fullsize police cars, that's for sure. It's because fuel is expensive, driving is tough in metropolitan areas, and smaller, mass-produced cars are cheaper to replace.
I don't think investing $300M of the public's money in developing a nicer police car is a good use of resources at this time. Especially not when a Dodge Charger or other similar vehicle will do.
In fact, I'd be all about lobbying for smaller, more efficient police vehicles where it makes sense to have them. British police don't roll around in fullsize police cars, that's for sure. It's because fuel is expensive, driving is tough in metropolitan areas, and smaller, mass-produced cars are cheaper to replace.
12-19-2011, 08:16 PM
#4
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Posts: 4,800
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
The Caprice is back as a police car too, but the Crown Vic is gone now.
If the big three can't all field a mass produced vehicle with civilian couterparts helping defer R&D costs how can they really expect to make a go of such a narrow use vehicle.
I understand the diesel thing and such, I just don't think it will work on a dedicated chassis.
If the big three can't all field a mass produced vehicle with civilian couterparts helping defer R&D costs how can they really expect to make a go of such a narrow use vehicle.
I understand the diesel thing and such, I just don't think it will work on a dedicated chassis.
12-19-2011, 10:39 PM
#6
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Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
I seriously doubt they will ever get up and running. If they do I can't see them being successful. The car will be too expensive and most agencies will not be able to afford them especially when you have much more affordable cars available like the Caprice PPV and Charger Pursuit.
Its a shame to because the Carbon car is full of innovation just for law enforcement like built in push bars, backwards opening rear doors for easier access to the rear, built in the body aerodynamic lightbars. Other equipment like radars, computers and cameras are built in and have read outs/screens in the dash.
Its a shame to because the Carbon car is full of innovation just for law enforcement like built in push bars, backwards opening rear doors for easier access to the rear, built in the body aerodynamic lightbars. Other equipment like radars, computers and cameras are built in and have read outs/screens in the dash.
Last edited by 30thZ286speed; 12-19-2011 at 10:47 PM.
12-19-2011, 11:47 PM
#7
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Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
Went through this long time ago. The business plan is ill thought out. The company will fail, and that's even assuming they sell any cars period.
Here's the problems.
1. Police departments are funded by taxpayers, meaning extremely tight budgets. Unless you happen to work for an agency awash in money, purchasing agents aren't going to go for experimantation, which anyone buying a Carbon actually is doing. In short, law enforcement is rather conservative as far as patrol cars.
2. Just as important if not moreso is maintence cost and parts availability. Crown Vics and Impalas became very popular because parts were plentiful and cheap.
3. Also figured into most vehicle purchases is money recovered at the end of it's service life via auction. One of the things that got the CHP on board buying Mustangs (and later Camaros) were higher than normal resale values.
4. Carbon does NOT have any plans whatsoever to sell to the general public.
5. Carbon's business plan calls on them to buy the cars back at the end of their service life. In short, Carbon (not the marketplace) will dictate what used Carbons are worth.
6. Finally, say you are the person who takes bids and makes the decisions on vehicl purchases for your city, county, or state. You have Dodge, Chevrolet, Ford, and Carbon all with bids in. Even with all bids exactly the same, when you look at all the pluses and negatives, and knowing that if you don't make the most safe, reasonable, and economical choice you're risking having some watchdog agency, some underemployed news writer, councilmember, board supervisor, or other representative looking to make a name for themselves ready to do everything but a rectal exam questioning your reasoning. Are you gonna buy from a proven company with a record, or you going to take a chance on something with no history and questionable future?
Carbons only... and I mean ONLY hope is getting a big fat Federal government contract. When I did purchasing, smaller companies and independent businesses got first choice unless they didn't have anything that met what was needed. If the Feds gave Carbon a loan, then they get additional brownie points.
But even if the Feds do give Carbon a contract, they're going to wind up being the guiena pigs. If Carbons hold up well, they might eventually sell a few to the more well off and experimental friendly agencies. But when you're talking about a company that's just starting off, you'll likely wind up with a vehicle that feels much cheaper than a vehicle from the big 3 (which likely will cost less due to volume). Yugos were seen as good cars when they came out... but all that dissappeared as the 1st buyers put some miles on them.
Regardless,
If Carbon doesn't get a federal loan, games over.
If Carbon gets a federal loan and they can't get a sizable federal contract, games over.
If Carbon doesn't change their business plan and sell these things to the general public as well as law enforcement, they aren't likely going to get any contract worth anything from any public law enforcement agency. Again, game over.
Sorry if I seem so negative on this. But Bricklin and Delorean's business plans were far better, while Tesla and Fisker's business plans seem gold plated by comparison.
Here's the problems.
1. Police departments are funded by taxpayers, meaning extremely tight budgets. Unless you happen to work for an agency awash in money, purchasing agents aren't going to go for experimantation, which anyone buying a Carbon actually is doing. In short, law enforcement is rather conservative as far as patrol cars.
2. Just as important if not moreso is maintence cost and parts availability. Crown Vics and Impalas became very popular because parts were plentiful and cheap.
3. Also figured into most vehicle purchases is money recovered at the end of it's service life via auction. One of the things that got the CHP on board buying Mustangs (and later Camaros) were higher than normal resale values.
4. Carbon does NOT have any plans whatsoever to sell to the general public.
5. Carbon's business plan calls on them to buy the cars back at the end of their service life. In short, Carbon (not the marketplace) will dictate what used Carbons are worth.
6. Finally, say you are the person who takes bids and makes the decisions on vehicl purchases for your city, county, or state. You have Dodge, Chevrolet, Ford, and Carbon all with bids in. Even with all bids exactly the same, when you look at all the pluses and negatives, and knowing that if you don't make the most safe, reasonable, and economical choice you're risking having some watchdog agency, some underemployed news writer, councilmember, board supervisor, or other representative looking to make a name for themselves ready to do everything but a rectal exam questioning your reasoning. Are you gonna buy from a proven company with a record, or you going to take a chance on something with no history and questionable future?
Carbons only... and I mean ONLY hope is getting a big fat Federal government contract. When I did purchasing, smaller companies and independent businesses got first choice unless they didn't have anything that met what was needed. If the Feds gave Carbon a loan, then they get additional brownie points.
But even if the Feds do give Carbon a contract, they're going to wind up being the guiena pigs. If Carbons hold up well, they might eventually sell a few to the more well off and experimental friendly agencies. But when you're talking about a company that's just starting off, you'll likely wind up with a vehicle that feels much cheaper than a vehicle from the big 3 (which likely will cost less due to volume). Yugos were seen as good cars when they came out... but all that dissappeared as the 1st buyers put some miles on them.
Regardless,
If Carbon doesn't get a federal loan, games over.
If Carbon gets a federal loan and they can't get a sizable federal contract, games over.
If Carbon doesn't change their business plan and sell these things to the general public as well as law enforcement, they aren't likely going to get any contract worth anything from any public law enforcement agency. Again, game over.
Sorry if I seem so negative on this. But Bricklin and Delorean's business plans were far better, while Tesla and Fisker's business plans seem gold plated by comparison.
12-20-2011, 01:06 PM
#8
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
The last thing we need is more crony capitalism. This whole philosophy of running to Daddy Warbucks (who is in turn drowning in debt already) whenever you have an idea for a tech/alternative energy startup is annoying at best and more like appalling at its core. If it's such a great idea and you have such a rock solid business plan, go out and get some venture capitalists on board like everyone else does and stand on your own. Otherwise, GTFO.
The ONLY appropriate response to this request is, "NO".
The ONLY appropriate response to this request is, "NO".
Last edited by Z28Wilson; 12-20-2011 at 01:14 PM.
12-20-2011, 02:35 PM
#10
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 10,287
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
Great post guionM 
I agree, this company is going nowhere. I wouldn't want my town wasting money on these cars. Impalas are just fine. Plus whats to stop Dodge, Ford or Chevy from putting a diesel option in one of their Police cars thus taking a huge advantage away from Carbon.
I agree, this company is going nowhere. I wouldn't want my town wasting money on these cars. Impalas are just fine. Plus whats to stop Dodge, Ford or Chevy from putting a diesel option in one of their Police cars thus taking a huge advantage away from Carbon.
12-20-2011, 03:09 PM
#11
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 943
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
I don't think you could come close to tooling up and building a car from scratch for $300 million. It would probably cost that much just to design it and build a few prototypes.
-Geoff
-Geoff
12-20-2011, 05:18 PM
#13
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: BFE, Ohio
Posts: 1,504
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
They are supposed to build the car in my town...I'm hoping this could work, as my town has one of the highest, if not the highest, unemployment rates in Indiana. Obviously, I want them to succeed. They've been waiting for this money for ~2.5 years, when they announced the build site, they said government approval was only 3-4 months away at the time 
12-20-2011, 06:29 PM
#14
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 10,287
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
How much market share do they need to survive? It just seems they just have too much competition between Charger, Caprice, Tahoe, Taurus, and Explorer. Are they expected to export any of these cars?
12-20-2011, 11:52 PM
#15
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Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: ENGLEWOOD,CO,USA
Posts: 171
Re: $300M loan to build a dedicated police Car
Went through this long time ago. The business plan is ill thought out. The company will fail, and that's even assuming they sell any cars period.
Here's the problems.
1. Police departments are funded by taxpayers, meaning extremely tight budgets. Unless you happen to work for an agency awash in money, purchasing agents aren't going to go for experimantation, which anyone buying a Carbon actually is doing. In short, law enforcement is rather conservative as far as patrol cars.
2. Just as important if not moreso is maintence cost and parts availability. Crown Vics and Impalas became very popular because parts were plentiful and cheap.
3. Also figured into most vehicle purchases is money recovered at the end of it's service life via auction. One of the things that got the CHP on board buying Mustangs (and later Camaros) were higher than normal resale values.
4. Carbon does NOT have any plans whatsoever to sell to the general public.
5. Carbon's business plan calls on them to buy the cars back at the end of their service life. In short, Carbon (not the marketplace) will dictate what used Carbons are worth.
6. Finally, say you are the person who takes bids and makes the decisions on vehicl purchases for your city, county, or state. You have Dodge, Chevrolet, Ford, and Carbon all with bids in. Even with all bids exactly the same, when you look at all the pluses and negatives, and knowing that if you don't make the most safe, reasonable, and economical choice you're risking having some watchdog agency, some underemployed news writer, councilmember, board supervisor, or other representative looking to make a name for themselves ready to do everything but a rectal exam questioning your reasoning. Are you gonna buy from a proven company with a record, or you going to take a chance on something with no history and questionable future?
Carbons only... and I mean ONLY hope is getting a big fat Federal government contract. When I did purchasing, smaller companies and independent businesses got first choice unless they didn't have anything that met what was needed. If the Feds gave Carbon a loan, then they get additional brownie points.
But even if the Feds do give Carbon a contract, they're going to wind up being the guiena pigs. If Carbons hold up well, they might eventually sell a few to the more well off and experimental friendly agencies. But when you're talking about a company that's just starting off, you'll likely wind up with a vehicle that feels much cheaper than a vehicle from the big 3 (which likely will cost less due to volume). Yugos were seen as good cars when they came out... but all that dissappeared as the 1st buyers put some miles on them.
Regardless,
If Carbon doesn't get a federal loan, games over.
If Carbon gets a federal loan and they can't get a sizable federal contract, games over.
If Carbon doesn't change their business plan and sell these things to the general public as well as law enforcement, they aren't likely going to get any contract worth anything from any public law enforcement agency. Again, game over.
Sorry if I seem so negative on this. But Bricklin and Delorean's business plans were far better, while Tesla and Fisker's business plans seem gold plated by comparison.
Here's the problems.
1. Police departments are funded by taxpayers, meaning extremely tight budgets. Unless you happen to work for an agency awash in money, purchasing agents aren't going to go for experimantation, which anyone buying a Carbon actually is doing. In short, law enforcement is rather conservative as far as patrol cars.
2. Just as important if not moreso is maintence cost and parts availability. Crown Vics and Impalas became very popular because parts were plentiful and cheap.
3. Also figured into most vehicle purchases is money recovered at the end of it's service life via auction. One of the things that got the CHP on board buying Mustangs (and later Camaros) were higher than normal resale values.
4. Carbon does NOT have any plans whatsoever to sell to the general public.
5. Carbon's business plan calls on them to buy the cars back at the end of their service life. In short, Carbon (not the marketplace) will dictate what used Carbons are worth.
6. Finally, say you are the person who takes bids and makes the decisions on vehicl purchases for your city, county, or state. You have Dodge, Chevrolet, Ford, and Carbon all with bids in. Even with all bids exactly the same, when you look at all the pluses and negatives, and knowing that if you don't make the most safe, reasonable, and economical choice you're risking having some watchdog agency, some underemployed news writer, councilmember, board supervisor, or other representative looking to make a name for themselves ready to do everything but a rectal exam questioning your reasoning. Are you gonna buy from a proven company with a record, or you going to take a chance on something with no history and questionable future?
Carbons only... and I mean ONLY hope is getting a big fat Federal government contract. When I did purchasing, smaller companies and independent businesses got first choice unless they didn't have anything that met what was needed. If the Feds gave Carbon a loan, then they get additional brownie points.
But even if the Feds do give Carbon a contract, they're going to wind up being the guiena pigs. If Carbons hold up well, they might eventually sell a few to the more well off and experimental friendly agencies. But when you're talking about a company that's just starting off, you'll likely wind up with a vehicle that feels much cheaper than a vehicle from the big 3 (which likely will cost less due to volume). Yugos were seen as good cars when they came out... but all that dissappeared as the 1st buyers put some miles on them.
Regardless,
If Carbon doesn't get a federal loan, games over.
If Carbon gets a federal loan and they can't get a sizable federal contract, games over.
If Carbon doesn't change their business plan and sell these things to the general public as well as law enforcement, they aren't likely going to get any contract worth anything from any public law enforcement agency. Again, game over.
Sorry if I seem so negative on this. But Bricklin and Delorean's business plans were far better, while Tesla and Fisker's business plans seem gold plated by comparison.
And, only $300 mil? No way will that cover additional development, production, distribution, emissions certification and crash testing. AND make a profit in a 70,000 unit per year police market when they have to share with all their competitors.
JUST a few execs trying to make it big with govt money. Solindra ring a bell?