My God... the most disturbing thing about this...
07-08-2008, 11:42 PM
#31
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: FL/MI
Posts: 1,808
I'm not worried about the Z28 being axed. I probably wouldn't have bought that model anyways. If it looks like the TF2 Bumblebee, I won't like it's looks. And if it's priced like a Shelby, I wouldn't be able to afford it anyways.
I'm more concerned about the whole Camaro program in general. If they don't hit their numbers, the car is history. I'm not ready to buy right now. My timeframe was 2011-2013.
I'm afraid if they cancel it, I'll never own one.
I'm more concerned about the whole Camaro program in general. If they don't hit their numbers, the car is history. I'm not ready to buy right now. My timeframe was 2011-2013.
I'm afraid if they cancel it, I'll never own one.
I have faith in the value folks will find in the new Camaro. If it doesn't sell?
Well, I'm not caught up in the pessimism. That being said, I'm also a pragmatist. I still see the good business case for Camaro. I see the aspirational, attainable, and loyalty platform the car has been and can continue to be.
I also come from a long line of military folks. So maybe my attitude is genetic in origin. It's more fun to win. Winning is important. Winning is no accident.
There are folks that want you to have a car you can be very happy with. They work at GM.
The best part is that you get to decide if what is offered is worth your consideration.
Last edited by 1fastdog; 07-08-2008 at 11:48 PM.
07-09-2008, 12:03 AM
#32
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Detroit, MI USA
Posts: 2,301
I posted this on another site -- and I'll post it here.
I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---
now -- that said: without further ado:
"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.
The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.
(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)
I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................
Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?
The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................
.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.
Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.
........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.
I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---
now -- that said: without further ado:
"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.
The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.
(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)
I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................
Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?
The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................
.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.
Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.
........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.
07-09-2008, 12:07 AM
#33
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
I'm sure that step 1 will not be referring anyone to your posts on this site
07-09-2008, 12:12 AM
#34
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Now, my '71 442, which gets 8-10mpg -- that's a different story
07-09-2008, 12:31 AM
#35
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Welp, sometimes you need to take the 10,000 ft view. This Camaro is not what I would have preferred. But that doesn't mean that I want it killed. Same, (especially) for the Z/28.
I invite anyone to peruse my last couple of hundred posts for the reasons why I feel that way. No shame there.
For various reasons, (many of them memorialized here), this product, as well as others, is under increasing scrutiny. Whatever happens, I want the Camaro brand to live on. And an abrupt ending to this upcoming car, will not further that goal.
07-09-2008, 12:41 AM
#37
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Welp, sometimes you need to take the 10,000 ft view. This Camaro is not what I would have preferred. But that doesn't mean that I want it killed. Same, (especially) for the Z/28.
I invite anyone to peruse my last couple of hundred posts for the reasons why I feel that way. No shame there.
For various reasons, (many of them memorialized here), this product, as well as others, is under increasing scrutiny. Whatever happens, I want the Camaro brand to live on. And an abrupt ending to this upcoming car, will not further that goal.
I invite anyone to peruse my last couple of hundred posts for the reasons why I feel that way. No shame there.
For various reasons, (many of them memorialized here), this product, as well as others, is under increasing scrutiny. Whatever happens, I want the Camaro brand to live on. And an abrupt ending to this upcoming car, will not further that goal.
With or without the Z/28 (or if the Z/28 mutates into something else), and even at 3900 pounds for the V8 model, I think the Camaro will be a fine car. The G8 has gotten great reviews, and I expect the Camaro to do so also. It'll be to the G8 like the BMW 650i is to the 550i.
You wanted an M3-like car -- nothing wrong with that. But also nothing wrong with a 650i.
(sorry for using BMW analogies)
07-09-2008, 12:49 AM
#38
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
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Besides, ignoring the elephant in the room, (no pun intended), is not my style.
07-09-2008, 12:59 AM
#39
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Location: FL/MI
Posts: 1,808
I posted this on another site -- and I'll post it here.
I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---
now -- that said: without further ado:
"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.
The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.
(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)
I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................
Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?
The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................
.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.
Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.
........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.
I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---
now -- that said: without further ado:
"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.
The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.
(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)
I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................
Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?
The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................
.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.
Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.
........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.
BTW, my wife and I are really enjoying our new Malibu LT 2Lt. It's a damn fine car. You know I don't say that lightly.
07-09-2008, 01:18 AM
#40
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Besides, ignoring the elephant in the room, (no pun intended), is not my style.
07-09-2008, 01:27 AM
#41
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
Amen Scott! As I said earlier, I won't believe the Z28 is dead until I hear from someone from GM.I currently have $30k saved up for my down payment (for a Z28) and should have even more than that by the time I need to place my order.
07-09-2008, 05:30 AM
#43
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Forgive me for saying this, but it's extremely amusing seeing everyone getting up in arms about a car they aren't and wasn't going to buy in the first place.
The Z28 is going to be essentially a Camaro version of the GT500, right down to a supercharged engine, and industrial strength (and heavy) drivetrain and suspension parts, not to mention a Shelby GT500-like high altitude retail price and strastospheric dealer markup due to low production numbers (likely fewer than the GT500).
As for the article, it's based on the words of 1 individual. I've learned the hard way not to base evenything on the words of one person when the subject is upcoming vehicles, especially if they are mid-level executives that are involved in whatever project that's the subject.... especially at General Motors. There is so many hoops a new vehicle has to jump through, and so much politics and intrigue behind the scenes that it's mandatory to get at least 2 or 3 different sources before making definative statements.
My take on this is that someone raised some last minute objections and is raising flags and questions about the need for the Z28. You have to admit, the case for the Z28 as it's planned is extremely flimsy for a company whose stock is worth 25 cents for every dollar it was worth last summer.
A 500+ horse, 2 ton performance car that will likely cost over $40,000 and whose entire year's production will equal roughly the number of Mustangs Ford sells every 2 weeks is going to be a target to anyone at GM wanting to save a couple of dollars.
I can't name a single car in automotive history that was killed after it's 1st year.
I agree the V8 gives the Mustang line it's image.
I will disagree strongly that the V6 Mustang is a poor performing car having driven more than a few.
Knowing people who drive V6 Mustangs and aware of websites devoted to the V6 Mustang, the idea that "posers" buy V6 Mustangs is just downright dumb.
Does the words "taking my money elsewhere" sound vagely familiar? 
Here, here! 
The Z28 is going to be essentially a Camaro version of the GT500, right down to a supercharged engine, and industrial strength (and heavy) drivetrain and suspension parts, not to mention a Shelby GT500-like high altitude retail price and strastospheric dealer markup due to low production numbers (likely fewer than the GT500).
As for the article, it's based on the words of 1 individual. I've learned the hard way not to base evenything on the words of one person when the subject is upcoming vehicles, especially if they are mid-level executives that are involved in whatever project that's the subject.... especially at General Motors. There is so many hoops a new vehicle has to jump through, and so much politics and intrigue behind the scenes that it's mandatory to get at least 2 or 3 different sources before making definative statements.
My take on this is that someone raised some last minute objections and is raising flags and questions about the need for the Z28. You have to admit, the case for the Z28 as it's planned is extremely flimsy for a company whose stock is worth 25 cents for every dollar it was worth last summer.
A 500+ horse, 2 ton performance car that will likely cost over $40,000 and whose entire year's production will equal roughly the number of Mustangs Ford sells every 2 weeks is going to be a target to anyone at GM wanting to save a couple of dollars.
BS.. If someone really hates the Camaro and works for GM, he deserves to be taken out of the Company. I mean, this car is so highly anticipated and loved, I would really be upset if Camaro was taken off the assembly line in the First Year. I say "Keep the Faith" and hopefully the Fbodfather will have some info to keep us cool.
I already shot this down in another thread. While the V6 is defintely important it isn't the end all be all. In fact at the end of the day I'd say the V8 is still the most important of the line-up. Posers/people buy the V6 because of the image it gets from V8. Without that V8 Mustang image the V6 is just another car in the pack. A pretty poor performing car for that matter.
I will disagree strongly that the V6 Mustang is a poor performing car having driven more than a few.
Knowing people who drive V6 Mustangs and aware of websites devoted to the V6 Mustang, the idea that "posers" buy V6 Mustangs is just downright dumb.
Welp, sometimes you need to take the 10,000 ft view. This Camaro is not what I would have preferred. But that doesn't mean that I want it killed. Same, (especially) for the Z/28.
I invite anyone to peruse my last couple of hundred posts for the reasons why I feel that way. No shame there..
I invite anyone to peruse my last couple of hundred posts for the reasons why I feel that way. No shame there..
Agree. Seeing as how you feel this way, my humble suggestion would be to avoid exaggerating the negatives (phrases like "morbidly obese" come to mind).
With or without the Z/28 (or if the Z/28 mutates into something else), and even at 3900 pounds for the V8 model, I think the Camaro will be a fine car. The G8 has gotten great reviews, and I expect the Camaro to do so also. It'll be to the G8 like the BMW 650i is to the 550i.
You wanted an M3-like car -- nothing wrong with that. But also nothing wrong with a 650i.
(sorry for using BMW analogies)
With or without the Z/28 (or if the Z/28 mutates into something else), and even at 3900 pounds for the V8 model, I think the Camaro will be a fine car. The G8 has gotten great reviews, and I expect the Camaro to do so also. It'll be to the G8 like the BMW 650i is to the 550i.
You wanted an M3-like car -- nothing wrong with that. But also nothing wrong with a 650i.
(sorry for using BMW analogies)
07-09-2008, 06:12 AM
#44
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
I don't understand your issue with this. The 4th gen proved you need to sell a V6 version to be successful. This looks like a solid sales plan to me.
I think that having the base car get good mileage is the only way it will sell at all. I think that is more an underlying assumption to get the second two targets to buy.
-Geoff
I think that having the base car get good mileage is the only way it will sell at all. I think that is more an underlying assumption to get the second two targets to buy.
-Geoff
As far as the rest of the article... meh... we'll see what happens. Honestly, if none of it is true (or maybe "accurate" is a better word...), it's still keeping the car in the news...
What stood out in my mind was the idea that an ad/marketing agency in the employ of GM could read the car so very (in my opinion) wrongly.
Last edited by PacerX; 07-09-2008 at 07:15 AM.
07-09-2008, 07:34 AM
#45
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,209
How could the ad agency get the Camaro so wrong? How could they not capitalize on the heritage of this car? And how in the f*ck can they compare it to a 350Z? 
I'm interested to know what we're finding out in "less than two weeks".
I'm interested to know what we're finding out in "less than two weeks".