Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
12-25-2010, 10:50 AM
#106
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
The point for some people is that they want a different car than what will likely be presented for sale. If they don't make that point, then GM and Chevrolet can assume that all goals are being met for all possible buyers. Some people don't buy a car based on what everyone else is buying. Will the new Z/28 be an overall good performer based on what we think it's going to be? Absolutely, I have no doubt it will be an excellent performer. Would it perform better if it weighed 200-500 pounds less? I can promise you it would. When I bought my Z/28 in '69, I didn't buy it based on what others were buying or what was supposed to be a super package put together by Chevrolet, I was already in an Olds 442 Ram Air and I did all the research of the current GM models back then to decide which car best met my particular wants/needs. I researched the weight, gear ratios available, power/RPM capabilities, handling, and plenty of other criteria. And after extensive research I decided that the '69 Z/28 best met my wants/needs at that point in time. Many of my friends and aquaintances were buying SS Camaros that either met their wants/needs, if it didn't it was because they did not research carefully. Everyone is free to buy the car they want out of what is available, if there is nothing available that meets your criteria then you can let manufacturers know that information. So instead of complaining about others voicing their wants and needs, please buy what you want and let others do the same.
Clyde
Clyde
^^^
12-25-2010, 02:29 PM
#107
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
12-25-2010, 09:53 PM
#108
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
It also holds the record as the fastest stock production sedan around Nürburgring.
It did it in 7.59 minutes.
That's the exact identical time as the Z06 Corvette. It's also on par with (0.04 seconds of) a Ferrari F430, quicker than an Aston Martin V8 Vantage (600 pounds less & about the same power to weight ratio), and a whole line of other cars.
Physics is is manipulated by engineering.
Weight is only one of many issues going around a track faster than the other fellow. A Miata is a featherweight go-kart, but I'd wouldn't place any money on it going around Laguna Seca against a Camaro SS. It would be a disappointment if a Z28 couldn't take down a Boss (even though that's not it's competitor), since even a Cadillac stands a realistic chance of doing it.
If you are talking "feel" and that abstract meaning of "handling", where a vehicle is an absolute joy to drive hard and fast, then most certainly the Mustang has it. But again, it's not just an issue of weight. It's also how you sit, the visibility you have, feedback through the steering and chassis, response to input.
I wouldn't quite yet bet against the Shelby GT500 either. We have no idea as of yet what was changed in the suspension or the capability of the tires of this new Z28.
Last edited by guionM; 12-25-2010 at 09:57 PM.
12-26-2010, 01:12 AM
#109
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Lately it's pretty close. Last month Camaro sold 70 units more than Mustang. In Oct. Mustang outsold Camaro by about 300. Pretty much neck and neck. We'll see how the numbers shake out by next spring, but Mustang numbers have been steadily increasing and Camaro numbers have been decreasing. If the trend continues, those curves will obviously cross.
Small and light and 4th gen - that's a WHOLE different thread.
Small and light and 4th gen - that's a WHOLE different thread.
*bangs head against wall for the 10 millionth time*
OK - -stop.
Please go look at the number of FLEET sales Mustang has had this year.
Please go look at the incentives Mustang has had this year.
Please go look at the number of Mustang Convertible sales this year (percentage while you're at it)
Please go look at the number of GT-500s this year - percentage while you're at it................
And then talk to me about sales where we have virtually no incentives on Camaro - we have minimal fleet sales (and the ones we do have are due to larger vehicle commitments) -- no convertible as of yet, and no direct competitor to the GT-500.......
We are pleased that the Camaro has been so well received....nevertheless we want to sell more and more -- so we are NOT satisfied.......and we never can be completely satisfied because that spells disaster.....
(and I'm sorry, I love ya dearly, but you continually give me -- and others -- the impression that it disappoints you that the 5th gen has not bombed - almost like you could then say "I told you so!")
NO ONE has said we're going to build a Z28........
But - (Doug - my buddy -- and I mean that -- pay attention!) If we ARE going to build a Z28, then it MUST be the fastest Camaro around a road course and it MUST beat the Mustang.............
Now -- if it IS the Fastest Camaro around a road course and it beats the Mustang........
?????
Finally - I love the passion everyone has for the Camaro - I really do!
But do not assume that what YOU want in a car is necessarily what the rest of our Camaro Enthusiasts want -
and do NOT assume that they do not know what they are talking about!
And I'll point this out once more:
Those on the Camaro Team that have to make the decision have a lot to lose..........none of us takes this responsibility lightly -
'nuff said for now.......
Last edited by Fbodfather; 12-26-2010 at 01:20 AM.
12-27-2010, 02:00 AM
#110
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Based on objective measures of sales success, I have to say that the Camaro team did a great job on this one.
A lightweight M3-beater (or 4-seat Corvette, viewed another way) would be fun, but I cannot assume that it would be profitable and/or a sales success. I'll bet most on the Camaro team would enthusiastically build one if they didn't have to worry about pesky items like engineering budgets, manufacturing costs, mass-market appeal, etc., etc.
12-27-2010, 02:26 AM
#111
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
If you like a loaded white with red stripes SS, I'm sure you can get a smoking deal on the one at my local dealership. It is a 2010 that has been here since a couple of months after the Camaro's first came out.
Needless to say, the dealership has not ordered another one.
Of course, up here, trucks sell far better than cars, as their only Cruze has been sitting there since the beginning also.
Needless to say, the dealership has not ordered another one.
Of course, up here, trucks sell far better than cars, as their only Cruze has been sitting there since the beginning also.
12-27-2010, 09:26 AM
#112
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
The Cadillac CTSv is over 4,200 pounds.
It also holds the record as the fastest stock production sedan around Nürburgring.
It did it in 7.59 minutes.
That's the exact identical time as the Z06 Corvette. It's also on par with (0.04 seconds of) a Ferrari F430, quicker than an Aston Martin V8 Vantage (600 pounds less & about the same power to weight ratio), and a whole line of other cars.
Physics is is manipulated by engineering.
It also holds the record as the fastest stock production sedan around Nürburgring.
It did it in 7.59 minutes.
That's the exact identical time as the Z06 Corvette. It's also on par with (0.04 seconds of) a Ferrari F430, quicker than an Aston Martin V8 Vantage (600 pounds less & about the same power to weight ratio), and a whole line of other cars.
Physics is is manipulated by engineering.
Granted, times around that track have to be taken with a grain of salt (was it a running start, start from a stop, was there traffic, was it wet?) I took a quick look at Wikipedia and I think you meant the Z51 Vette which makes a lot more sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times
Back to the subject however, regardless of what any of these cars run around the track, I'm sure GM will come out swinging with the Z28. I expect it to be fully competitive with the GT500. Otherwise, what's the point?
12-27-2010, 11:10 AM
#113
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
With all due respect, your tired-out data point of "the local dealer with the one SS Camaro languishing on the lot" really carries next to zero value. One could find multiple dealers (of any manufacturer) with a similar situation in small-town USA but it doesn't make it a representation of overall sales.
12-27-2010, 11:17 AM
#114
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Location: Oakland, California
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
NO ONE has said we're going to build a Z28........
But - (Doug - my buddy -- and I mean that -- pay attention!) If we ARE going to build a Z28, then it MUST be the fastest Camaro around a road course and it MUST beat the Mustang.............
Now -- if it IS the Fastest Camaro around a road course and it beats the Mustang........
But - (Doug - my buddy -- and I mean that -- pay attention!) If we ARE going to build a Z28, then it MUST be the fastest Camaro around a road course and it MUST beat the Mustang.............
Now -- if it IS the Fastest Camaro around a road course and it beats the Mustang........
12-27-2010, 01:21 PM
#115
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Location: Payson, AZ USA
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Another issue with small towns and areas, is they have a tendency to be very conservative (Payson started as a ranching town). Our local Chevy/GMC/Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealership suffered quite a bit, due to the bailouts.............. well, that and their poor customer service. Whereas the local Ford dealership benefited greatly.
In areas like this, Domestics outsell imports by large numbers.
Thus, if you are looking for a good place to get big discounts on cars.......... and especially cars from "the other 2" domestics, small communities are a good place to look.
Plus, for jg, it is not hideously far from CA, so transport costs would be lower.
12-27-2010, 01:23 PM
#116
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
The Cadillac CTSv is over 4,200 pounds.
It also holds the record as the fastest stock production sedan around Nürburgring.
It did it in 7.59 minutes.
That's the exact identical time as the Z06 Corvette. It's also on par with (0.04 seconds of) a Ferrari F430, quicker than an Aston Martin V8 Vantage (600 pounds less & about the same power to weight ratio), and a whole line of other cars.
It also holds the record as the fastest stock production sedan around Nürburgring.
It did it in 7.59 minutes.
That's the exact identical time as the Z06 Corvette. It's also on par with (0.04 seconds of) a Ferrari F430, quicker than an Aston Martin V8 Vantage (600 pounds less & about the same power to weight ratio), and a whole line of other cars.
But as Steve0 pointed out the it's the same time as a Corvette C6 Z51 driven by Dave Hill. IIRC that was a LS2 400hp 2005 spec Vette.
GM posted the 2006 Z06 at 7.42.99 by Jan Magnussen which is a whole different realm of performance.
And the F430 time by SportAuto is actually 4 seconds quicker at 7min 55sec not 0.04 sec. quicker. Quite a bit different.
Sport Auto represents what I would think is the true enthusiast times. Done by a very good driver familiar with the Ring but the cars are run as is and the results are more in line with real world performance.
This is why it's somewhat dangerous to quote "Ring" times as gospel. As Steve0 mentioned there is a wide variance in times based on conditions, tires, drivers, how the race was started (standing/rolling) and if it was done by a magazine or OEM.
A quick glance at the times shows most of them done by what should be unbiased magazines. Then there are seesntually the "Pro" runs done by GM, Chrysler, Porsche and Nissan which are certainly the most scrutinized but represent the absolute best performance the cars tested can attain. But there is certainly a bias.
However until we have the day when we have cars tested the same day in the same conditions we'll never really have a truly accurate comparison.
12-27-2010, 04:31 PM
#117
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
You can't assume that it wouldn't be profitable either. I think there is a healthy market for a lightweight M3-beater at the top of the range, and by extension, a lightweight, sporty, fun and economical to own version at the entry level.
12-27-2010, 05:10 PM
#118
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Location: Santa Clara, CA
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Sure. But at what price? And what would it cost to build? My point is that you can't just work off of assumptions, you have to work off of data. Data that we, as mere enthusiasts, can only guess at.
12-27-2010, 05:29 PM
#119
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
You are working off of an assumption. You are assuming the current car can't be beat for profitability.
12-27-2010, 06:00 PM
#120
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Location: South Bend , IN
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Well, right now...the 2011 Mustang GT is about as close to a budget M3 as your gonna get . Its sporty, lightweight( both cars are 36xx lbs) , fun , and economical to own and matches or beats the M3 in every measurable performance test .
