Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
12-07-2010, 10:54 AM
#16
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12-07-2010, 12:39 PM
#17
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Well, it isn't really "my" logic. I was just trying to explain what I am interpreting to be the gist of the complaint lodged by the "This new car should be a ZL1 not a Z/28" crowd. I certainly see where they are coming from, though.
No, I'm not implying that displacement is the same as physical engine size. I'm well aware of the difference.
But the 302, while being similar in size / weight to the 350, was clearly smaller and lighter than the big block 396, while making similar power (and likely less peak torque).
(BTW, the LS3 redlines at 6600, I think. Definitely over 6k.) Anyway, I'm not about to badmouth the LSA, supercharger or not. I'd love to have one! On the other hand, to me it is pretty easy to argue that the LS7 from the very light Z06 Corvette is more of a "spiritual successor" to the DZ302 than is the heavier (because of the blower and intercooler) LSA. I suppose one could say that, in a way, the LSA is more like a big block with the extra size and weight; the LS7 is a light and compact (despite its displacement) high revving motor. In reality, both are very powerful small blocks, but as I said, the LS7 seems to fit the profile a little better. AND, adding mass in the engine department is not going to be welcomed by those who already think the 5th gen is a bit pudgy.
No, I'm not implying that displacement is the same as physical engine size. I'm well aware of the difference.
But the 302, while being similar in size / weight to the 350, was clearly smaller and lighter than the big block 396, while making similar power (and likely less peak torque). (BTW, the LS3 redlines at 6600, I think. Definitely over 6k.) Anyway, I'm not about to badmouth the LSA, supercharger or not. I'd love to have one! On the other hand, to me it is pretty easy to argue that the LS7 from the very light Z06 Corvette is more of a "spiritual successor" to the DZ302 than is the heavier (because of the blower and intercooler) LSA. I suppose one could say that, in a way, the LSA is more like a big block with the extra size and weight; the LS7 is a light and compact (despite its displacement) high revving motor. In reality, both are very powerful small blocks, but as I said, the LS7 seems to fit the profile a little better. AND, adding mass in the engine department is not going to be welcomed by those who already think the 5th gen is a bit pudgy.
Quite frankly, I give no credence whatsoever to the "This new car should be a ZL1 not a Z/28" crowd. If their argument is "historical" precedence, then it doesn't hold water as the ZL1 was never, I repeat NEVER a regular production option. (It was a COPO.) Therefore, there is no reason any regular production Camaro should EVER be called "ZL1".
(I still prefer the name "SS Supercharged" for the LSA Camaro which would allow there to be an LS7 Camaro called Z/28, however that's a completely different argument altogether.
)
12-07-2010, 02:46 PM
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
However, the spirit of Z28 of the other nearly 40 years would be the SS.
The Z28 (like the Shelby GT 500) is the ultimate beast, and neither is a track-only vehicle like the originals.
12-07-2010, 04:01 PM
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Someone can correct me if I am wrong. From what I've read the 302 used the same block as the 350. The 302 was basically a 350 with a 283 crank, of course the 302 got special forged internals.
When do we expect the 2012 Z28 to be unveiled offically, NAIAS?
When do we expect the 2012 Z28 to be unveiled offically, NAIAS?
12-07-2010, 04:30 PM
#20
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Additional fun fact... while several here have referred to the 302 as "DZ", that designation didn't arrive until late 1968 for the 1969MY. The 1967 and 1968 302 were small journal blocks. 1967 302s were designated "MO" or "MP" (w/ CA emissions), while 1968 302s were "MO" blocks.
12-08-2010, 07:57 AM
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
I believe it was actually more a 327 small journal block with a 283 < could also use 265 > crank... Thus you achieve a 4 inch bore with a 3 inch stroke... IOW..302CI displacement. The small journal is less friction producing, IOW less parasitic losses at higher RPM. With 4 bolt main caps, forged goodies, and SOLID LIFTERS, you can spin the **** out of it.
Last edited by 1fastdog; 12-08-2010 at 08:12 AM.
12-08-2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
I believe it was actually more a 327 small journal block with a 283 < could also use 265 > crank... Thus you achieve a 4 inch bore with a 3 inch stroke... IOW..302CI displacement. The small journal is less friction producing, IOW less parasitic losses at higher RPM. With 4 bolt main caps, forged goodies, and SOLID LIFTERS, you can spin the **** out of it.
Clyde
12-08-2010, 08:45 PM
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12-09-2010, 12:29 AM
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
Ok everything else aside I am really having a hard time understanding your logic in the engine department.
The Oringinal Z28 DZ302 as you pointed out was only SMALLER due to the SCCA rules and would have been bigger in the original had SCCA allowed a bigger displacement. In fact in 1970 they did just that and went up in displacement. I also get the impression you are implying that CID Displacement has to do with size and therefore weight. The "regular" Camaro's 350 you mention (which what was in my '69 btw out of the Tonowanda factory) I believe was the same or similar block to the DZ302. There was also the 307 small block.
So vehicle and supercharger aside if the original Z28 DZ302 was a high horsepower Small Block, I am REALLY having trouble understanding how the high horse 6.2L LS series motor doesnt hit the mark dead on. (LS3 for instance 422hp and redlines at 6k)
The Oringinal Z28 DZ302 as you pointed out was only SMALLER due to the SCCA rules and would have been bigger in the original had SCCA allowed a bigger displacement. In fact in 1970 they did just that and went up in displacement. I also get the impression you are implying that CID Displacement has to do with size and therefore weight. The "regular" Camaro's 350 you mention (which what was in my '69 btw out of the Tonowanda factory) I believe was the same or similar block to the DZ302. There was also the 307 small block.
So vehicle and supercharger aside if the original Z28 DZ302 was a high horsepower Small Block, I am REALLY having trouble understanding how the high horse 6.2L LS series motor doesnt hit the mark dead on. (LS3 for instance 422hp and redlines at 6k)
12-09-2010, 09:20 AM
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Re: Chevrolet reviving Z28 as a 2012 model?
I'm glad to see a lot of good first gen. Z/28 heritage info being shared, but let's correct some small errors. The 302cid Z/28 was available for three model years, '67-'69. And actually the blocks were 302/327/350 cid ready as all three engines had the same bore. The '67 302 used a small journal block, '68 and '69 used a large journal block. '67/'68 302 blocks were 2 bolt main caps, the '69 block (which was the DZ302) was the only one with 4 bolt main caps. And as happened often back then, there were some differences in what equipment was used at model changeover time that may conflict with this (such as the narrow configuration '67/'68 trunk spoiler being used on very early '69 models). Back to the OPs topic, I would have been happier if a new Z/28 was more "in line" with the heritage of the first gen. Z/28s, but given the Zeta chassis and body design with the overall weight around 3800+ pounds, I can see why a decision was made to go with an LSA type engine and HP. Perhaps a sixth gen. Z/28 in a few years will be more in line with the first gen. heritage.
Clyde
Clyde
Good info! Thanks!
Last edited by 1fastdog; 12-09-2010 at 09:23 AM.
