Article...2008 Camaro: Dead on Arrival?
06-15-2007, 08:41 PM
#61
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 515
If this car is marketed properly and optioned right the majority of the Camaros will be V6 cars just as the Mustang.
Contrary to what many think the V6 will be the most important player as it should and will be the volume car. This is why there is still a Mustang as most are V6 cars that appeal to a large crowd and are cost effective for many to own.
From what things I see and hear I feel Chevy has a good handle on this and we will see some V6 cars that most of us will want to own as daily drivers and not really miss the V8.
In the 60's the majority of the Camaro's were not all SS and Z28's. Most were small V8's and In line 6's that were daily drivers.
As for a 6th Gen. Hmmm I do not expect this car to have near the long runs of the past Gens as todays market will not let Chevy get away with that. I expect they will look at a 5-6 year run till the next gen comes along.
My question will be how long till they add a Hybrid performance version? The Imports already show prototype Hybrid sports cars at Detroit this year.
Contrary to what many think the V6 will be the most important player as it should and will be the volume car. This is why there is still a Mustang as most are V6 cars that appeal to a large crowd and are cost effective for many to own.
From what things I see and hear I feel Chevy has a good handle on this and we will see some V6 cars that most of us will want to own as daily drivers and not really miss the V8.
In the 60's the majority of the Camaro's were not all SS and Z28's. Most were small V8's and In line 6's that were daily drivers.
As for a 6th Gen. Hmmm I do not expect this car to have near the long runs of the past Gens as todays market will not let Chevy get away with that. I expect they will look at a 5-6 year run till the next gen comes along.
My question will be how long till they add a Hybrid performance version? The Imports already show prototype Hybrid sports cars at Detroit this year.
06-16-2007, 10:58 AM
#62
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 311
God kills a kitten.
When will you guys realize that the camaro crowd is into sporty, fun, yet semi fuel effiecient cars. The Maro is not the platform to show off a sports hybrid.
And I dont know if you realized, but all the "prototype Hybrid sports cars" that were at Detroit, are upwards of 60-80-even 100 thousand dollars.
YA RIGHT, they wont ever make a car that has a Camaro name plate on it with that kind of price tag.
06-16-2007, 01:09 PM
#65
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Okemos, MI
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Yes. If you add electric motors to a car without reducing the size of the gas engine, it generally makes the car a bit faster (because of the added power from the electric motors).
The electric motors and associated batteries and other electronic components add weight, so the hybrid version of a car rarely handles as well as it's gasoline-only equivalent. The performance benefits are only in acceleration.
The Accord V6 Hybrid is one example of such a car.
The electric motors and associated batteries and other electronic components add weight, so the hybrid version of a car rarely handles as well as it's gasoline-only equivalent. The performance benefits are only in acceleration.
The Accord V6 Hybrid is one example of such a car.
06-16-2007, 07:01 PM
#67
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 515
Everytime you say Hybrid and Camaro in the same sentence.
God kills a kitten.
When will you guys realize that the camaro crowd is into sporty, fun, yet semi fuel effiecient cars. The Maro is not the platform to show off a sports hybrid.
And I dont know if you realized, but all the "prototype Hybrid sports cars" that were at Detroit, are upwards of 60-80-even 100 thousand dollars.
YA RIGHT, they wont ever make a car that has a Camaro name plate on it with that kind of price tag.
God kills a kitten.
When will you guys realize that the camaro crowd is into sporty, fun, yet semi fuel effiecient cars. The Maro is not the platform to show off a sports hybrid.
And I dont know if you realized, but all the "prototype Hybrid sports cars" that were at Detroit, are upwards of 60-80-even 100 thousand dollars.
YA RIGHT, they wont ever make a car that has a Camaro name plate on it with that kind of price tag.
At this point the auto industry is in for big changes. No they will not happen over night but they will be coming and effect all areas.
I know at this time there is no plans for a Camaro hybrid but that may not always be true. Todays hybrids are more a PR ploy but with new batteries and electric technology they will become more powerful and efficent.
It seems that Honda has already offered a 250 HP V6 Accord with hybrid technology. It got lost in the Prius publicitiy storm. While I am not a Honda fan I did like the idea of a higher HP engine that got assited at highway speeds to improve milage. This is also the thinking at GM on assisting full size SUV trucks with hybrid technology in their new second tier systems. Why improve a 30 MPG car when you can improve a 15 MPG vehicle and see greater gains in performance and efficentcy.
Don't under estimate the folks at GM, if they are smart enough to get a Ls engine to produce a streetable 700 HP and pass emissions just think what they can do with some honking big electric motors and future upgraded battery technology.
Lets face it if GM does not kill a few kittens and work to develope this technology they will get left behind as the other companies are already working on it.
The first one may be a little expensive but the cost drops with volume.
Keep your mind open as the sky is the limit on what may come. If we all do not think out of the box we would still be stuck in dark 70's technology. Not all new things are bad.
I was never a cat person anyway
06-17-2007, 10:24 AM
#68
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: New Haven, CT
Posts: 1,042
Exactly. I know it might not be a big deal for the Corvette since people with money will buy that car, but if you want people in the Camaro's price range to buy it they will need to see it is not some gas guzzler like an old musclecar is.
06-17-2007, 10:30 PM
#69
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Orlando, FL USA
Posts: 1,232
Yes and GM will never move regular staff over to alturnitive drivetrain department? [they just did] and offer an electric car in the near future [the Volt is in the works]?!?!?!?!
At this point the auto industry is in for big changes. No they will not happen over night but they will be coming and effect all areas.
I know at this time there is no plans for a Camaro hybrid but that may not always be true. Todays hybrids are more a PR ploy but with new batteries and electric technology they will become more powerful and efficent.
It seems that Honda has already offered a 250 HP V6 Accord with hybrid technology. It got lost in the Prius publicitiy storm. While I am not a Honda fan I did like the idea of a higher HP engine that got assited at highway speeds to improve milage. This is also the thinking at GM on assisting full size SUV trucks with hybrid technology in their new second tier systems. Why improve a 30 MPG car when you can improve a 15 MPG vehicle and see greater gains in performance and efficentcy.
Don't under estimate the folks at GM, if they are smart enough to get a Ls engine to produce a streetable 700 HP and pass emissions just think what they can do with some honking big electric motors and future upgraded battery technology.
Lets face it if GM does not kill a few kittens and work to develope this technology they will get left behind as the other companies are already working on it.
The first one may be a little expensive but the cost drops with volume.
Keep your mind open as the sky is the limit on what may come. If we all do not think out of the box we would still be stuck in dark 70's technology. Not all new things are bad.
I was never a cat person anyway
At this point the auto industry is in for big changes. No they will not happen over night but they will be coming and effect all areas.
I know at this time there is no plans for a Camaro hybrid but that may not always be true. Todays hybrids are more a PR ploy but with new batteries and electric technology they will become more powerful and efficent.
It seems that Honda has already offered a 250 HP V6 Accord with hybrid technology. It got lost in the Prius publicitiy storm. While I am not a Honda fan I did like the idea of a higher HP engine that got assited at highway speeds to improve milage. This is also the thinking at GM on assisting full size SUV trucks with hybrid technology in their new second tier systems. Why improve a 30 MPG car when you can improve a 15 MPG vehicle and see greater gains in performance and efficentcy.
Don't under estimate the folks at GM, if they are smart enough to get a Ls engine to produce a streetable 700 HP and pass emissions just think what they can do with some honking big electric motors and future upgraded battery technology.
Lets face it if GM does not kill a few kittens and work to develope this technology they will get left behind as the other companies are already working on it.
The first one may be a little expensive but the cost drops with volume.
Keep your mind open as the sky is the limit on what may come. If we all do not think out of the box we would still be stuck in dark 70's technology. Not all new things are bad.
I was never a cat person anyway
I actually would love to see what GM could do with some good electric motors. Three phase electric motors can produce some hella amounts of torque, I would love to see what they can do in a GM built sports car. Something like this:
http://www.teslamotors.com/
Maybe a Volt SS?
06-18-2007, 11:01 AM
#70
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
You need to understand, the Tesla and cars like it, while performance cars, are an entirely different animal. You really don't want a Camaro that was modified to be a hybrid, or electric "performance" car. You want a car that was designed from the ground up to be powered by whatever power package is used.
Even the Tesla is a modified Lotus in a sense. Check out this website for example...
http://ssi-racing.com/
The guy took a Factory 5 Cobra coupe kit car and made it full electric. This is a fiberglass bodied car. An electric or hybrid Camaro would never be able to perform up to a Camaro-like performance which enthusiasts would expect.
I'm not saying that GM shouldn't work on an electric or hybrid performance car; I'm just saying it won't be a "Camaro" no matter how good it is... thus give it another name.
However, it would be very logical to assume that a Camaro running on biofuels could be built rather easily and still remain what we expect a Camaro to be.
Even the Tesla is a modified Lotus in a sense. Check out this website for example...
http://ssi-racing.com/
The guy took a Factory 5 Cobra coupe kit car and made it full electric. This is a fiberglass bodied car. An electric or hybrid Camaro would never be able to perform up to a Camaro-like performance which enthusiasts would expect.
I'm not saying that GM shouldn't work on an electric or hybrid performance car; I'm just saying it won't be a "Camaro" no matter how good it is... thus give it another name.
However, it would be very logical to assume that a Camaro running on biofuels could be built rather easily and still remain what we expect a Camaro to be.
06-18-2007, 01:33 PM
#71
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
The only way I see Camaro (and even Mustang) migrating to become hybrids is if market demand or government forces it. What I do see instead is GM and Ford finding ways to make profit off of fewer and fewer Camaros and Mustangs as they have been doing.
Consider that last year Ford sold over 166,000 Mustangs, and that is considered a roaring success. Ford is making quite a bit of cash off the car, so much that it prompted GM to bring back Camaro and Chrysler to finally get a RWD coupe to the marketplace. But the '74 Mustang II and the restyled '79 Mustang both sold well in excess of 380K. Even in the 1980s there were only 4 years Mustang sold as few as it is now.
That fewer number of Mustangs (and Camaros) also mean less of an impact on CAFE numbers.
In 20 years when hybrids or 400 mile electric cars are commonplace & 160K in annual coupe sales recalls "the good ole days", any automaker that can still turn a profit making ponycars in small numbers, and those small numbers don't affect their CAFE numbers, and can be manufactured on a cost effective assembly line, you can probally bet will still make them.
Bet you wouldn't find a single person in 1977 with the knowledge of upcoming emissions and fuel economy standards (at the time impossible to meet without subcompact, choked up, 75 horsepower four bangers) predicting a 160 MPH, ultralow emission, V8 powered, Camaro Z28 just 25 years later....
.... let alone 30 years later a 500-plus horsepower, 200 MPH Corvettes that get almost the same mileage as those choked up, 75 horsepower, four bangers of 1977.
Although Gran National ain't coming back, virturally everything else in your post will probally turn out to be very true.
Camaro won't sell to your "average joe", but not because of the reasons you mention.
The person you describe in your post will choose a practical car that will carry child seats, have easy access to roomy rear seats, has enough luggage space to pack up for family vacations, and will be an all purpose car.
Meanwhile, Camaros and Mustangs tend to sell to 3 distinct groups.
1. The young (and usually single) person (both male and female) who is comfortably started in their career or has a a bit more money in their budget. They no longer need to get the cheapest car on the lot, and want to be more expressive in what they drive.
2. A family that is reasonably well off. They have a house in the suburbs, kids still live at home. They already have an SUV or Crossover, and a daily driver. The Mustang (or Camaro.. or Corvette) is the weekend ride, or "dad's toy".
3. Finally, the empty nesters. Kids are out of school and on their own, and there's more income available. Dad's 50-plus, always wanted a Mustang or Camaro, and now he has the money to get any one he wants. These are the guys that buy new Cobras & GT500 Mustang, Z06 Corvettes, and top dog Camaros.
Camaros (and Mustangs) are actually VERY affordable. Pricewise, they are cheaper than mid-option SUVs, and while the insurence on anything with the words "Turbocharged" or "Supercharged" or "V8" call up insurence rates to keep young kids safely away from buying these things new, those over 25 with good driving records will find the insurence on these cars often cheaper than that 4 wheel drive sitting next to it in the showroom.
The issue is practicality. What is going to provide the most use and be the closest to what you actually need for the money you're laying out.
If you have a family, making 30-40k per year, and have a $1300 per month morgage (... and paying health insurece for the wife and kids, and paying utilities each month, and...) Camaro and Mustang are likely to be the last car in the world you need..... or want.
Consider that last year Ford sold over 166,000 Mustangs, and that is considered a roaring success. Ford is making quite a bit of cash off the car, so much that it prompted GM to bring back Camaro and Chrysler to finally get a RWD coupe to the marketplace. But the '74 Mustang II and the restyled '79 Mustang both sold well in excess of 380K. Even in the 1980s there were only 4 years Mustang sold as few as it is now.
That fewer number of Mustangs (and Camaros) also mean less of an impact on CAFE numbers.
In 20 years when hybrids or 400 mile electric cars are commonplace & 160K in annual coupe sales recalls "the good ole days", any automaker that can still turn a profit making ponycars in small numbers, and those small numbers don't affect their CAFE numbers, and can be manufactured on a cost effective assembly line, you can probally bet will still make them.
Bet you wouldn't find a single person in 1977 with the knowledge of upcoming emissions and fuel economy standards (at the time impossible to meet without subcompact, choked up, 75 horsepower four bangers) predicting a 160 MPH, ultralow emission, V8 powered, Camaro Z28 just 25 years later....
.... let alone 30 years later a 500-plus horsepower, 200 MPH Corvettes that get almost the same mileage as those choked up, 75 horsepower, four bangers of 1977.
Journalists try to write editorials that insight emotion.
We love our cars with great emotion.
Emotion mostly sells these cars.
People bought the new stang because it reminded them of the past, or it was like the car that that their parents or uncle had, or they just generally thought it was cool. The hot new old looking stang!
Lots of kids are now driving new v6 stangs that would have probably bought a "pocket rocket" subcompact. Subcompacts just don't have the "it" factor that a muscle or pony car has. The subs are not very comfortable and they don't have much equiptment outside of cool MP3 interfaces.
I don't expect the 5th gen to be around for ever, but I expect that like the stang it will sell by the buckets for a while and will probably spin off some other cool derivatives (Firebird, Grand National, GTO, etc). Once the Camaro starts to wane, GM can role out the other flavors much more successfully than the Mustang's ongoing "14 versions of the same soup" strategy. They build the Corvette and the XLR on the same line, why not other versions of the 5th gen platform ala Norwood F-body days.
We love our cars with great emotion.
Emotion mostly sells these cars.
People bought the new stang because it reminded them of the past, or it was like the car that that their parents or uncle had, or they just generally thought it was cool. The hot new old looking stang!
Lots of kids are now driving new v6 stangs that would have probably bought a "pocket rocket" subcompact. Subcompacts just don't have the "it" factor that a muscle or pony car has. The subs are not very comfortable and they don't have much equiptment outside of cool MP3 interfaces.
I don't expect the 5th gen to be around for ever, but I expect that like the stang it will sell by the buckets for a while and will probably spin off some other cool derivatives (Firebird, Grand National, GTO, etc). Once the Camaro starts to wane, GM can role out the other flavors much more successfully than the Mustang's ongoing "14 versions of the same soup" strategy. They build the Corvette and the XLR on the same line, why not other versions of the 5th gen platform ala Norwood F-body days.
I think the article has some valid points, mostly the average joe won't be able to afford the camaro and insurance for it. My definition of an average joe is one or two kids making $30-$40K a year with a $1300 a month morgage...
...I would hope GM makes the camaro affordable and have different trim levels, so the average joe can get a fresh camaro
...I would hope GM makes the camaro affordable and have different trim levels, so the average joe can get a fresh camaro
The person you describe in your post will choose a practical car that will carry child seats, have easy access to roomy rear seats, has enough luggage space to pack up for family vacations, and will be an all purpose car.
Meanwhile, Camaros and Mustangs tend to sell to 3 distinct groups.
1. The young (and usually single) person (both male and female) who is comfortably started in their career or has a a bit more money in their budget. They no longer need to get the cheapest car on the lot, and want to be more expressive in what they drive.
2. A family that is reasonably well off. They have a house in the suburbs, kids still live at home. They already have an SUV or Crossover, and a daily driver. The Mustang (or Camaro.. or Corvette) is the weekend ride, or "dad's toy".
3. Finally, the empty nesters. Kids are out of school and on their own, and there's more income available. Dad's 50-plus, always wanted a Mustang or Camaro, and now he has the money to get any one he wants. These are the guys that buy new Cobras & GT500 Mustang, Z06 Corvettes, and top dog Camaros.
Camaros (and Mustangs) are actually VERY affordable. Pricewise, they are cheaper than mid-option SUVs, and while the insurence on anything with the words "Turbocharged" or "Supercharged" or "V8" call up insurence rates to keep young kids safely away from buying these things new, those over 25 with good driving records will find the insurence on these cars often cheaper than that 4 wheel drive sitting next to it in the showroom.
The issue is practicality. What is going to provide the most use and be the closest to what you actually need for the money you're laying out.
If you have a family, making 30-40k per year, and have a $1300 per month morgage (... and paying health insurece for the wife and kids, and paying utilities each month, and...) Camaro and Mustang are likely to be the last car in the world you need..... or want.
Last edited by guionM; 06-18-2007 at 01:35 PM.
06-18-2007, 02:10 PM
#72
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 3,650
Wow. You totally described me. My wife has a Pathfinder, I have a Maxima and the Camaro is dad's weekend toy.
07-01-2007, 09:49 AM
#75
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 134
LOL try living in Los Angeles where you can get a low end house for about
$500,000 close to a $3000 a month pament
and the average person makes about 35-40K a year.
Im married and together we make about 60K a year and still just dream about buying a house! All i can do right know is save and go from there
$500,000 close to a $3000 a month pament
and the average person makes about 35-40K a year.
Im married and together we make about 60K a year and still just dream about buying a house! All i can do right know is save and go from there