Dragoneye

When I look at the 3 cars, Challenger - Mustang - Camaro.
I think, and always have - even when I first came across the cars.

Of the Exteriors:
Challenger: "Retro, totally, and completely"
Mustang: "Meh, Retro...not retro...retro....not retro, oh forget it."
Camaro: "Definitely not retro...but I haven't seen a recessed grille like that in....wow. Totally a '67-'69 Throwback cue that is."

Of the Interiors
Challenger: "Wow; nice, machine-like take on the old design. Slanted center console...hmmm"
Mustang: "Kinda boring...resembles the old ones a little. The Chrome looks nice, though."
Camaro: "Wtf?!?! What is that supposed to be? Oh, the gauges...look at 'em - Ha! I love it - that is totally different in every way. But no way they're keeping any of that. Too bad, I guess."

Turns out GM/Chevy proved me wrong on the interior thing. They are keeping that. I understand what folks are saying here about the '69 family resemblance...but to the majority of buyers out there, to the targeted demographics (pretty much everybody), this design (inside, and out) is something new, and different. That's what I'm getting out of it.

I think because we're all so deep-seated in the Camaro's history (that's 2002 and back), a lot of guys, and maybe gals are seeing more retro then is actually there. (i.e. not many of these guys here: the people that constantly say that the Camaro is a totally, and completely retro design that's gonna fade away almost instantly.) I believe they think this because the car's coming back when the other automakers are having success with their retro designs - so that is obviously the only reason it's back......

I'm pretty sure Scott, the rest of the team, and 90% of us folks here have been screaming for it back before the recent throwback Mustang redesign...so retro had nothing to do with it.


Which of these things is not like the others, Which of these things, doesn't belong? (as far as styling goes)

BigDarknFast

Someone would have to live under a rock, to not notice what a success the 05-PLUS Mustang has been:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/17/pf/a...tang/index.htm

(Above article notes Mustang sales rose FORTY FIVE percent from 2004 to 2005).

As for the next Mustang being more modern - I've heard that too. Personally I think it's a mistake to go that route. The Mustang is a genuine American muscle car, a tradition and an icon in its niche. Trying to sneak out of the niche and go up against the Nissan 350Z etc is too big a reach IMO and will cost sales as well as leave Mustang-intenders chagrined (and lining up for Camaros )
GM, like other carmakers, has made some design mistakes. SSR comes to mind. It was retro without any innate market. But the new Camaro in contrast, does resonate with a lot of folks. It just 'looks right' to a lot of fans and potential buyers. Its OVERALL design fits their preferences and intuitions. Once again though - it goes back to a basic issue. We DO NOT yet know what the production interior is like. No one has seen, sat in or driven a production 2010 Camaro's interior. What does the interior look like? How does it feel to sit in it and operate controls? What features will be there (eg, possible HUD)? So it's way premature to be concluding "why its so hated" or to be evaluating its "Potential to be a failure".

Dragoneye

I think we should just pop that into our sigs for a while....

BigDarknFast

(I love that picture!)

Thanks for posting, those are some good points. The Camaro manages to walk that tightrope - brings back memories for some, but is unmistakedly new and sharp. It truly is a huge contrast, for example, comparing it to the new Challenger - which is a shameless copy of the old one.

90rocz

I think it's not as much a copy as many think.
I've seen in it person,( just missed the naked girl on the hood), but it looked very clean and crisp and more understated, like it was ready for production. Where I saw the Camaro as a little over the top, when I first saw it.
I think the Mustang is more of a shameless copy, personally..

Dragoneye

Well, to each his own on that count (what designs you like)...but I think the fact remains that to enthusiasts of any car; design cues that come from older models stand out to us more than they do to everybody else. I wasn't around for the 60's Camaros, and didn't follow them as much until recently (they're the sh**, btw )...so a very large amount of the Concept is pretty new-looking to me - as it probably will be to anybody (non-enthusiast) 48 and younger. It's not a bad thing, it's just a part of us.

BigDarknFast

I guess it's one of those subjective things. But I will go out on a limb, and say that the new Camaro is more modern and fresh (IMO) than either the 05-plus Mustang, or the new Challenger...

I also like the Camaro-girl-on-the-hood better



(from http://www.camarohomepage.com/ )

Fbodfather

......and NOW we know why Scott goes ballistic when unauthorized photos are posted on the internet.

Someone posted that the first gen cars were most loved -- or something along those lines.

Not true.

We did several studies where we talked to Camaro/Firebird/Mustang/Sport Car intenders in several cities -- 5,000 people as I recall.

The only people who picked the 69 were male V8 Camaro/Firebird/Mustang owners over 40 (and the studies were in 1999-2000-- so those people are pushing -- or bending the hell outta 50..........

Over 80% of the people picked the 85 IROC as the Camaro that 'got it rightr' - that was the true essence of Camaro. That said -- I have a hard time convincing people WITHIN GM of those numbers -- let alone those outside of GM.

Someone made comments that this site has the most naysayers -- and in my searches, they're right -- and it's a small percentage of those on this site.

Someone said the car will be a failure. Perhaps by some strange coincidence, this person may be right -- but frankly, that person couldn't possibly be anywhere near the concepts at any autoshow and make comments like that. The car has been embraced by all ages.........no, not everyone likes it -- but trust me -- I've never seen a car get this much positive attention.

It could be successfully argued that I'm prejudiced.

That said - i get great pleasure (most of the time) by saying "I told you so!"

Time will tell.

Once again -- how 'bout waiting until the finished product hits the showrooms and you drive one????

Fbodfather

This may sound mean - -and I don't mean it to -- (but I got up at 3:30am Detroit time and am now in San Jose at it's 12:55am Detroit time -- )

......but I'm certain that a few people on this site are going to be sorely disappointed if the new Camaro doesn't fail. Sorry -- but I read some of these comments -- and I say to myself: "Welll -- it's because they care" and 'they have passion' -- but as I re-read comments, I'm convinced that there are those who do hope this car will fail.

I don't think it will.

I could be wrong....but I've lived with the concept for quite some time - I've taken them all over the United States and Canada -- and I know that the production car is so close to the concept.

Time will tell.

(and I have a longggggggggggggg memory)

90rocz

I'd have to say the same thing.

I'd say I'm right in there too, it's why I'm keeping and restoring my IROC, tho I'd also take a '68 over a '69 any day. A much smoother, cleaner, less gimmicky looking car!..But I'm biased as well, I cut my teeth on a '68-SS..

I hope I don't look like one of them. EVERY comment I've made is a concern that I think could help the Camaro succeed, and I hope to buy one to ensure it will.

99SilverSS

I remember that building well but never seeing her in the lobby>

Good Ph.D

I had a feeling... That was a large part of my point you just supported, whether it was intentional or not.

While my first reaction was very bad, that was probably premature, and I am now convinced it will get much better, even I still don't understand all of the choices.

This site may have a lot negative to say, could be age, could be how much we feel we've invested, or anything, but if you've got a long memory, and I don't doubt that you do, then you can probably remember those of us who simply have points of concern, and those others who are ants at a picnic...

SNEAKY NEIL

You can't look at the last year of a production run and compare it to the debut year of the next generation car, that's a little foolish. Of course there will be an increase in sales, especially when everyone knew what was comming the following year. I never said the new Mustang wasn't a sucess, I just thought I remember seeing the sales numbers of the past Mustang being very high as well. Does anyone have the sales numbers since '94?

As for the Camaro having a modern design and being a great risk and failure, what have they been doing since '67? What would indicate that a modern Camaro would be a failure?

It also is apparent in that picture, the one with all three muscle cars, that they all took the same direction.

Once the Camaro is out, I would love to see the back story on why they did what they did and how much of an influence the Mustang had on the final car.

BigDarknFast

I happen to be in that group. If I had the $$ to restore an older Camaro, I'd choose a 3rdgen over a 1stgen. It's interesting, to think how the 5gen might have turned out if it had primarily targeted 3gen design cues instead of the 1stgen (I do think there is some 3gen in the 5gen, but its more 1gen really). But this point got me thinking about demographics and perceptions. I love the 3rdgens and have owned two of them (83 Z28, 90 IROC-Z)... but there is a little bit of a stigma associated with them in the general public. Maybe they are too 'recent' in the public mind, to draw cues from, since many are still out on the roads and sadly a lot are ill-maintained and not a good image.

I see a lot of women driving 05-plus Mustangs. I wonder how many would have wanted to be seen in a new Mustang modeled after a 5.0 from the 1980's? Not many, I'd wager. In contrast, a new Mustang with heritage cues from the 60's Mustangs, which are clearly and obviously classics in the public mind, is seen as classy and unique. I believe the same approach will work magnificently for the new Camaro.

BigDarknFast

The 4gens went away partly because of their modernistic design. The steeply raked windshield was too much for some. I remember sitting in a Firebird on a showroom floor in 1994. I was keenly interested in the new 4gens, and on the market for a new car. I really did not like how low the windshield was... and how low I sat in the car. (Oddly, by 1999 my preferences had changed, but that's a different story). A lot of the buying public did not like the 4gen's shape and styling. My sister for example - I suggested a Camaro when she was car shopping in 2000... she had the same concerns I had about it though and ended up with a Chrysler Sebring vert.

"Modern" styling on a muscle car is a risky proposition. A lot of the 4gen's success, IMO, was not so much due to the styling but to the incredible performance value they gave for the $$. Styling alone was not the draw. So trying to 'nail' great styling on a new Camaro, without the heritage cues, would be mighty risky for GM IMHO. I read recently that the first CTS had horrible clinic results when GM was deciding whether to produce the car - yet it turned out to be a great success. What if GM clinic'd a modernistic new Camaro, but it then flopped despite good internal research? It's difficult to tell how a car will do beforehand, and very risky to style one with no historical cues.

I've seen pix of the new RWD Hyundai coupe concept. It's all modern and all (obviously, Hyundai's not going to leverage any heritage cues ). But for the life of me, I don't recall anything right now, about how it looks. Nothing unique sticks out in my mind. That's not a good sign for success of that car.

In contrast - the Camaro concept drew rave reviews. It won awards. It leaves an unmistakeable impression on those who've seen it, and it reminds fans of the other Camaros that have ruled so many American streets for decades. Looks like a winner to me