[Interior] Dead Horse: "Retro" and why I think this interior is so hated.
01-05-2008, 02:31 AM
#1
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Dead Horse: "Retro" and why I think this interior is so hated.
Ok, the interior pics have just made this relevant again so quickly. A large part of the hate seems to be stemming from the fact that there are two very different interpretations ofthis car here.
One camp, mine, feels the interior is the wrong choice because it is shamelessly retro and does not match the exterior which is largely modern.
The other, is arguing that a "retro" car should only have a "retro" interior. I don't agree with that, I don't think it even makes sense.
As far as sheetmetal, the only thing on the concept I would attribute only to being "retro" is the front fascia. That's because the grill and it's shape are distinctly 69' Camaro, as evidenced by the t-shirts it appears on. Also because deeply recessed grills like that have been absent on modern cars for years... But the rest of the body, that's so "muscular," so "sporty" isn't at all unique to 69', first gen or even Camaro. Long hood, short rear deck, sweptback roof, hips... are all standard stuff for Pony cars and even coupes in general. All of those things can be found on any year Mustang, if you remember the "It looks like a Mustang," comments from the debut, that's part of where they came from. All of those features can even be found alive and well on modern cars like the G35 Coupe. Just because they appear on the concept, and on the first gen in no way means the concept is retro first gen.
So outside of that, what else is "retro" and exclusively so to the first gen. Head and fog lights, tail lights, and the quarter windows. That's three, maybe four depending on how you count, "cues" that are inarguably first gen, out of a whole car. Remember, head and tail lights cost $20 and could easily be changed factory or aftermarket for a dramatically different effect, that may or may not say 69'. If you don't believe me wait until the first refresh and see what changes and what effect it has. So that leaves us with front fascia and quarter windows as the two definetly retro, and definetly first gen "cues." Oh, and the fact that it's got a trunk and not a hatch.
On the other hand, one could make a case that there is just as much Third gen in the car as there is first. Mid height bodyline crease, edgier body, etc.
So, all that's to say, you could intepret the exterior either way, which is wonderful. However, you can only interpret the interior one way, and that's retro. For those of us who have been seeing a modern car all this time, that's a big problem, it's complete disconnect between the outside and in, that's in addition to the ergonomic and style issues I/we have with it.
Now, keep in mind the reaction so far seems to be only, "kinda like" and "really hate," and multiply that time the larger market, who without badges couldn't point out a 69' Camaro to save their life, who could just as easily be shopping for a G35 or IS350, or who need to justify a Camaro over a milquetoast sedan, and I think you have a slight problem.
No, it isn't a dealbreaker for me, and I may get in the seat, in the proper sight line and not hate it. My concern is that regular people are going to see a great modern car, go on down to to the dealership see a wierd interior, and not care, and certainly not take the time to find out about what is inspired buy a 69' Camaro, and wind up in anyone of a dozen other comparable products.
One camp, mine, feels the interior is the wrong choice because it is shamelessly retro and does not match the exterior which is largely modern.
The other, is arguing that a "retro" car should only have a "retro" interior. I don't agree with that, I don't think it even makes sense.
As far as sheetmetal, the only thing on the concept I would attribute only to being "retro" is the front fascia. That's because the grill and it's shape are distinctly 69' Camaro, as evidenced by the t-shirts it appears on. Also because deeply recessed grills like that have been absent on modern cars for years... But the rest of the body, that's so "muscular," so "sporty" isn't at all unique to 69', first gen or even Camaro. Long hood, short rear deck, sweptback roof, hips... are all standard stuff for Pony cars and even coupes in general. All of those things can be found on any year Mustang, if you remember the "It looks like a Mustang," comments from the debut, that's part of where they came from. All of those features can even be found alive and well on modern cars like the G35 Coupe. Just because they appear on the concept, and on the first gen in no way means the concept is retro first gen.
So outside of that, what else is "retro" and exclusively so to the first gen. Head and fog lights, tail lights, and the quarter windows. That's three, maybe four depending on how you count, "cues" that are inarguably first gen, out of a whole car. Remember, head and tail lights cost $20 and could easily be changed factory or aftermarket for a dramatically different effect, that may or may not say 69'. If you don't believe me wait until the first refresh and see what changes and what effect it has. So that leaves us with front fascia and quarter windows as the two definetly retro, and definetly first gen "cues." Oh, and the fact that it's got a trunk and not a hatch.
On the other hand, one could make a case that there is just as much Third gen in the car as there is first. Mid height bodyline crease, edgier body, etc.
So, all that's to say, you could intepret the exterior either way, which is wonderful. However, you can only interpret the interior one way, and that's retro. For those of us who have been seeing a modern car all this time, that's a big problem, it's complete disconnect between the outside and in, that's in addition to the ergonomic and style issues I/we have with it.
Now, keep in mind the reaction so far seems to be only, "kinda like" and "really hate," and multiply that time the larger market, who without badges couldn't point out a 69' Camaro to save their life, who could just as easily be shopping for a G35 or IS350, or who need to justify a Camaro over a milquetoast sedan, and I think you have a slight problem.
No, it isn't a dealbreaker for me, and I may get in the seat, in the proper sight line and not hate it. My concern is that regular people are going to see a great modern car, go on down to to the dealership see a wierd interior, and not care, and certainly not take the time to find out about what is inspired buy a 69' Camaro, and wind up in anyone of a dozen other comparable products.
01-05-2008, 02:45 AM
#2
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That's where I'm having some trouble.
My idea of Heritage/retro if you will, "themed" is represented too literally in the Concept and Pre-Prod leak.
My take would be modern media in heritage packaging...maybe virtual gage faces, and NAV, clean crisp surfaces etc etc
..
My idea of Heritage/retro if you will, "themed" is represented too literally in the Concept and Pre-Prod leak.
My take would be modern media in heritage packaging...maybe virtual gage faces, and NAV, clean crisp surfaces etc etc
..
01-05-2008, 06:17 AM
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I agree with most of the OP's points - though the idea that the exterior and interior may not be perceived as following the same theme doesn't bother me personally. My issue lies with the look of the interior itself - regardless of whether it is true to some retro theme or not (mandatory caveat - my thoughts are based solely on the leaked, unofficial, not-yet-complete, its bound to change, etc, pics of the interior).
[QUOTE=Aklaim;5089232]Time for a change... I think you might be experiencing toxic shock.
Interesting rebuttal. Please allow me to add this....
Not my words - but thought I'd share. 
[QUOTE=Aklaim;5089232]Time for a change... I think you might be experiencing toxic shock.
Interesting rebuttal. Please allow me to add this....
Last edited by Bob Cosby; 01-05-2008 at 06:24 AM.
01-05-2008, 06:32 AM
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those are your opinions, and you are entitled to them. MY opinion, How you don't see any resemblance to the 69 Camaro and the 09 Camaro other than the grill is beyond me. The entire SHAPE of the car is based on the 69. The roof lines, the C Pillar, the rear quarter, the door, AND the interior are all BASED on the 69 Camaro.
I for one wished for years (long before the Camaro line was even killed off in 02) that Chevy would reproduce a 1969 Camaro with modern drivetrain and brakes and a more modern interior. I'm sure I'm not alone in that as the First Gens are probably the most loved of all Camaros. And the fact that someone out there is making 1969 Camaro bodies so that people out there can do just that. And Motion is back in biz making 1969 highline Camaros with a long list of power options.
So while you are in the camp that would have liked to see the Camaro take the path of further evolution from the 4th gen, MANY of us (read MOST) are estatic that the next Camaro will pay tribute to the heritage of the first gens, mostly the 1969 which in MY opinion is one of the most beautiful cars ever created.
I love the looks, and direction of the new Camaro. and I also love the looks and direction that the interior is going. Other than the Gauge pods and the flatness of the dash what about it screams retro? We can't all be pleased. I'm just glad I'm in the group that is.
I for one wished for years (long before the Camaro line was even killed off in 02) that Chevy would reproduce a 1969 Camaro with modern drivetrain and brakes and a more modern interior. I'm sure I'm not alone in that as the First Gens are probably the most loved of all Camaros. And the fact that someone out there is making 1969 Camaro bodies so that people out there can do just that. And Motion is back in biz making 1969 highline Camaros with a long list of power options.
So while you are in the camp that would have liked to see the Camaro take the path of further evolution from the 4th gen, MANY of us (read MOST) are estatic that the next Camaro will pay tribute to the heritage of the first gens, mostly the 1969 which in MY opinion is one of the most beautiful cars ever created.
I love the looks, and direction of the new Camaro. and I also love the looks and direction that the interior is going. Other than the Gauge pods and the flatness of the dash what about it screams retro? We can't all be pleased. I'm just glad I'm in the group that is.
01-05-2008, 05:01 PM
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those are your opinions, and you are entitled to them. MY opinion, How you don't see any resemblance to the 69 Camaro and the 09 Camaro other than the grill is beyond me. The entire SHAPE of the car is based on the 69. The roof lines, the C Pillar, the rear quarter, the door, AND the interior are all BASED on the 69 Camaro.
Yes I can see 69' in it, both acutely and totally, but what I also know is, lots of cars have hips, lots of cars have roof slots, had quarter windows etc.
So even if the intention from day one was to create a retro car, that was based mostly on 69' Camaro, I think what they created is a car that a lot of people will find attractive and not know or care what was lifted off a classic. That's good, especially considering the direct competition, Mustang and Challenger, at the moment look like carbon copies stretched to modern proportions.
I can't say the same about the interior, it makes me think they'll be forced to compete for the same market as Mustang, when they could have potentially been getting a lot more conquest sales as well, which is what both GM and Camaro need.
Considering some of the people who like this are the same enthusiast who will buy based on the "Camaro" badge alone, and it's alienating a lot of others who have no problem walking to the next product, I think it's a very questionable choice.
Or maybe it will all come together in the end.
01-06-2008, 03:34 PM
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Ok, so I'm the only one here that's actually sat in a Challenger. Its retro. It looks awesome.
The Camaro interior isn't retro. Its flat awful. I don't know who was smoking what when that center stack was drawn up. All apologies to Scott and those at GM reading this, but that center stack is the epitome of ugly. Kudos to the designers for the cool center stack ancillary gagues, and the nice door panels and cool looking roof console. Otherwise? Frog eye gagues and mutant HVAC controls do not make a nice interior.
The Camaro interior isn't retro. Its flat awful. I don't know who was smoking what when that center stack was drawn up. All apologies to Scott and those at GM reading this, but that center stack is the epitome of ugly. Kudos to the designers for the cool center stack ancillary gagues, and the nice door panels and cool looking roof console. Otherwise? Frog eye gagues and mutant HVAC controls do not make a nice interior.
01-06-2008, 06:44 PM
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Why don't I see retro on this thing?
I see the next edition of a Camaro. I don't see a '69. And I don't think of one when I see it, either. Even the interior...I've compared both the '69's insides to this one's...and I don't think it bears any resemblance past the 6 gauges. And I think the 6 gauges look freaking awesome - but that seems to be just me, and 80% of everyone else, so....
I've read and heard about the styling cues, and the retro influence. But when I look at where the Challenger came from, and where the Mustang came from - I'm astounded when I hear people call the 5th gen "shamelessly retro".
EDIT: and I'm sorry - but it seems that other than here, and very few other sites I visit; this interior is NOT hated. At least...not by anyone that's hating it for the right reasons. Sorry, but this has become oneof the most worn down, and diseased topics about this Camaro.
I see the next edition of a Camaro. I don't see a '69. And I don't think of one when I see it, either. Even the interior...I've compared both the '69's insides to this one's...and I don't think it bears any resemblance past the 6 gauges. And I think the 6 gauges look freaking awesome - but that seems to be just me, and 80% of everyone else, so....
I've read and heard about the styling cues, and the retro influence. But when I look at where the Challenger came from, and where the Mustang came from - I'm astounded when I hear people call the 5th gen "shamelessly retro".
EDIT: and I'm sorry - but it seems that other than here, and very few other sites I visit; this interior is NOT hated. At least...not by anyone that's hating it for the right reasons. Sorry, but this has become oneof the most worn down, and diseased topics about this Camaro.
Last edited by Dragoneye; 01-06-2008 at 06:47 PM.
01-06-2008, 07:10 PM
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01-06-2008, 08:07 PM
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Seeing a prototype car, with such an incomplete interior (not meant to be seen - for obvious reasons), and then deciding to hate it is a wrong reason.
rant:
Barring all this 'basic shapes, and core design features stay' mumbo-jumbo. The prototypes weren't necessarily designed for the comfort of body, and eye of the drivers. At best, they threw together an early mockup (whatever was ready when these were built) so that they could be just passed as functional and driven for testing.
/rant
Hating the interior because one has seen the final production, meant to be seen version, and decides "I'm sorry, that's not for me." (note the relatively kind phrase choice) is the right reason.
That's all I meant.
I'm sorry...but I don't understand - Yes what you say is true: I don't think it's retro, and I don't have a problem with it - but... what examples does that counter?
Last edited by Dragoneye; 01-06-2008 at 08:10 PM.
01-07-2008, 09:24 AM
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I agree there are a lot of 1stgen cues in there, and it's most like a 1stgen. But that alone would not be enough to explain its phenomenal acceptance by muscle car fans and also the automotive world in general. It seems to me, it also includes cues from the 3rdgen (sharp body angles, steeply reclined front and rear glass) and even the Corvette. For those choosing a car on styling (both exterior and interior), I believe the exterior styling is going to have more influence on their buying decision; but I for one am glad it appears Chevy is staying close to the concept throughout since it helps the Camaro as a whole to be one, compelling, harmonious design.