Poor Man's Camshaft Lobe Hardening Treatment
01-11-2016, 01:01 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Poor Man's Camshaft Lobe Hardening Treatment
We all know how difficult and reluctant Cast Iron and Mild Steel parts and pieces are to protect from rust and corrosion... but as a tangential idea i am suggesting here... I discovered an astonishing thing during the preparation of Front Suspension Components for Rust Proof Coatings that have hidden implications for those of us having the 660 Engines using either the notoriously "soft metal" Solid or Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifters.
Those of us who have taken the challenge of re-building the GM 3.4l 207 CID (some say 204 CID) L-32 Engine are very well aware of the problem that occurs if the engine is not assembled with the proper Camshaft Conditioning additives (ZDDP) and the use of High Performance Engine Break in Oil such as Valvoline Racing Oil or Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil. But that action alone will be insufficient without an Initial Start-Up Procedure that demands running the engine immediately up to 2,000 RPM and sustaining that level of rotation for at least 25-30 Minutes...followed by an IMMEDIATE Oil and Filter Change.
The reason for this is that if allowed to idle initially... the soft metal surfaces on the camshaft lobes and the faces of the flat tappets would literally be wiped out... ground down... because without spinning the engine fast enough for the incompressible hydraulic behavior of the oil being squeezed by the matings of these lobe surfaces...the metal-hardening and conditioning "Payload" of "ZDDP" Zinc-Di--Dithio-Phosphate will not be allowed to penetrate into the concerned metal surfaces...strengthening and hardening them over the 25-30 minutes of action...and more or less inoculating them from premature wear for the rest of the life of the engine. This kind of damage is often precipitated by the lack of pre-oiling the engine requires prior to start-up...especially for Crate Motors that have had the oil literally "shaken" out of them in transit from the factory to the customer. Rough S&H = Bone Dry Oil Galleys.
Here is what I found that is new...and which is a phenomena that might help to ACTIVELY chemically harden the camshaft lobes and the faces of the lifters if applied properly...on the BENCH instead of relying entirely upon the passive presence of ZDDP under oil Propulsion to deliver the what is needed to protect the metal from harm. What happened was this: During the course of Metal-Prepping the Large Cast Iron Steering Knuckles of my 1993 Chevrolet Z-28, I employed the Products, Chemicals and Procedures of the POR-15 Black Rust Prevention Coating. Nested within that group and the last to be used on the metal prior to the actual application of the Black Coating...was a small bottle of POR15 "Prep-and Ready" Solution.
I was at the stage where I was "push painting" the "Prep and Ready" with a foreshortened Bristle Paint Brush, repetitively coating and ensuring a very complete coverage of this chemical and I noticed that it had the distinct smell of Phosphoric Acid which I remembered from prior use in Bluing Handguns many years ago. After 15-20 minutes of very deliberately spreading and painting this highly acidic stuff onto the bare, clean surfaces of the Cast Iron... I washed these components in Very Hot Fresh Water and then patted them bone dry with paper towels and set them on the counter so that the residual heat from the Hot water bath would vaporize and eliminate the last vestiges of moisture from the surfaces of the metal. They all had a slightly dulled, golden tinged appearance.
Because I always memorialize my work in digital photos for others and for the posterity of other young mechanics who may not get the chance to find things out with the passage of time about the history and repair possibilities of the 4th Gen Carline Series. In this case, I took a whole raft of images and after uploading them to my laptop for sending to gmtnation.com for the OP I was doing there...and THAT is when I saw something in them that surprised me... A Golden Glint or Hue to the Metal surfaces that occasionally sparkled in the images! Since the camera is much more sensitive than the human eye...I did not give it much thought beyond the understanding that having done this work...I could now paint the treated surfaces of the Cast Iron Parts and know that the paint would permanently adhere.
It was then that all of this came together. I married the memory oif the smell of Phosphoric Acid with the information somewhat obscurely written in some of the POR-15 literature about the chemical mixture being described as "Zinc-Phosphate". I thought "Wow... that stuff is EXACTLY the stuff mixed in with the Motor Oils in Valvoline Racing Oil and Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil... except in THIS case... the stuff was REALLY DELIVERED with a more purposeful and direct method!
So this got me thinking about its application for Pre-Treating the Camshaft Lobes and the Contact Faces of the Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifters in the 3.4l Engine. The process would have to be done very carefully so as to protect the Camshaft Bearing surfaces by taping them off completely with Blue Painters Tape. Then, using Two Lubricated V-Blocks for support during rotation... you could loosely attach the the Large Timing Chain Gear to the nose of the camshaft as the means to ROTATE the camshaft while applying the POR-15 "Prep and Ready" to all of the Camshaft Lobes for a period of about 15-20 Minutes, ensuring that each Lobe was treated to 360 degrees of exposure... all contained in a long Drip Pan. Naturally Nitrile Gloves and Eye Protection would be required here.
This could be accomplished with the smallest of the POR-15 "Super-Sampler" kits for around $30.00 that has everything required and a very small investment of the time it would take to wash the camshaft first in the POR-15 "Marine Green" Degreaser...followed by a hot water wash and rinse...and finally the application of the POR-15 "Prep and Ready". Another reason to consider doing this Pre-Treatment is in the case of having any High Performance Upgrades such as Higher Lift CompCam Camshafts and Stronger 300 lb Dual Valve Springs they would require. Having such additional protective treatment might obviate the need to use the stock springs for the 30 Minute Break In period to prevent wiping the camshaft lobes before they have enough Zinc and Phosphorus buried into the surfaces of the lobes and then having to install the stronger springs as required with the cam afterwards..
Please visit the link listed below so you can see from the images and procedures I applied...that this idea might prove useful in this suggested application...and do remember that if you try this procedure...you should also do the suggested 30 minute Break-in at 2,000 RPM followed by an immediate change of oil and filter. You assume complete and total responsibility for any and all outcomes; either good or bad from trying this procedure:
How to Put on Bullet-Proof Suspension Paint | GMTNation
Those of us who have taken the challenge of re-building the GM 3.4l 207 CID (some say 204 CID) L-32 Engine are very well aware of the problem that occurs if the engine is not assembled with the proper Camshaft Conditioning additives (ZDDP) and the use of High Performance Engine Break in Oil such as Valvoline Racing Oil or Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil. But that action alone will be insufficient without an Initial Start-Up Procedure that demands running the engine immediately up to 2,000 RPM and sustaining that level of rotation for at least 25-30 Minutes...followed by an IMMEDIATE Oil and Filter Change.
The reason for this is that if allowed to idle initially... the soft metal surfaces on the camshaft lobes and the faces of the flat tappets would literally be wiped out... ground down... because without spinning the engine fast enough for the incompressible hydraulic behavior of the oil being squeezed by the matings of these lobe surfaces...the metal-hardening and conditioning "Payload" of "ZDDP" Zinc-Di--Dithio-Phosphate will not be allowed to penetrate into the concerned metal surfaces...strengthening and hardening them over the 25-30 minutes of action...and more or less inoculating them from premature wear for the rest of the life of the engine. This kind of damage is often precipitated by the lack of pre-oiling the engine requires prior to start-up...especially for Crate Motors that have had the oil literally "shaken" out of them in transit from the factory to the customer. Rough S&H = Bone Dry Oil Galleys.
Here is what I found that is new...and which is a phenomena that might help to ACTIVELY chemically harden the camshaft lobes and the faces of the lifters if applied properly...on the BENCH instead of relying entirely upon the passive presence of ZDDP under oil Propulsion to deliver the what is needed to protect the metal from harm. What happened was this: During the course of Metal-Prepping the Large Cast Iron Steering Knuckles of my 1993 Chevrolet Z-28, I employed the Products, Chemicals and Procedures of the POR-15 Black Rust Prevention Coating. Nested within that group and the last to be used on the metal prior to the actual application of the Black Coating...was a small bottle of POR15 "Prep-and Ready" Solution.
I was at the stage where I was "push painting" the "Prep and Ready" with a foreshortened Bristle Paint Brush, repetitively coating and ensuring a very complete coverage of this chemical and I noticed that it had the distinct smell of Phosphoric Acid which I remembered from prior use in Bluing Handguns many years ago. After 15-20 minutes of very deliberately spreading and painting this highly acidic stuff onto the bare, clean surfaces of the Cast Iron... I washed these components in Very Hot Fresh Water and then patted them bone dry with paper towels and set them on the counter so that the residual heat from the Hot water bath would vaporize and eliminate the last vestiges of moisture from the surfaces of the metal. They all had a slightly dulled, golden tinged appearance.
Because I always memorialize my work in digital photos for others and for the posterity of other young mechanics who may not get the chance to find things out with the passage of time about the history and repair possibilities of the 4th Gen Carline Series. In this case, I took a whole raft of images and after uploading them to my laptop for sending to gmtnation.com for the OP I was doing there...and THAT is when I saw something in them that surprised me... A Golden Glint or Hue to the Metal surfaces that occasionally sparkled in the images! Since the camera is much more sensitive than the human eye...I did not give it much thought beyond the understanding that having done this work...I could now paint the treated surfaces of the Cast Iron Parts and know that the paint would permanently adhere.
It was then that all of this came together. I married the memory oif the smell of Phosphoric Acid with the information somewhat obscurely written in some of the POR-15 literature about the chemical mixture being described as "Zinc-Phosphate". I thought "Wow... that stuff is EXACTLY the stuff mixed in with the Motor Oils in Valvoline Racing Oil and Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil... except in THIS case... the stuff was REALLY DELIVERED with a more purposeful and direct method!
So this got me thinking about its application for Pre-Treating the Camshaft Lobes and the Contact Faces of the Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifters in the 3.4l Engine. The process would have to be done very carefully so as to protect the Camshaft Bearing surfaces by taping them off completely with Blue Painters Tape. Then, using Two Lubricated V-Blocks for support during rotation... you could loosely attach the the Large Timing Chain Gear to the nose of the camshaft as the means to ROTATE the camshaft while applying the POR-15 "Prep and Ready" to all of the Camshaft Lobes for a period of about 15-20 Minutes, ensuring that each Lobe was treated to 360 degrees of exposure... all contained in a long Drip Pan. Naturally Nitrile Gloves and Eye Protection would be required here.
This could be accomplished with the smallest of the POR-15 "Super-Sampler" kits for around $30.00 that has everything required and a very small investment of the time it would take to wash the camshaft first in the POR-15 "Marine Green" Degreaser...followed by a hot water wash and rinse...and finally the application of the POR-15 "Prep and Ready". Another reason to consider doing this Pre-Treatment is in the case of having any High Performance Upgrades such as Higher Lift CompCam Camshafts and Stronger 300 lb Dual Valve Springs they would require. Having such additional protective treatment might obviate the need to use the stock springs for the 30 Minute Break In period to prevent wiping the camshaft lobes before they have enough Zinc and Phosphorus buried into the surfaces of the lobes and then having to install the stronger springs as required with the cam afterwards..
Please visit the link listed below so you can see from the images and procedures I applied...that this idea might prove useful in this suggested application...and do remember that if you try this procedure...you should also do the suggested 30 minute Break-in at 2,000 RPM followed by an immediate change of oil and filter. You assume complete and total responsibility for any and all outcomes; either good or bad from trying this procedure:
How to Put on Bullet-Proof Suspension Paint | GMTNation
Last edited by rsm93z28; 01-11-2016 at 11:53 PM.
01-12-2016, 11:48 AM
#2
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Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
Posts: 70,647
Re: Poor Man's Camshaft Lobe Hardening Treatment
Have you actually tried this? Somehow, it would seem that the POR15 Prep & Ready, with a 3 - 7% phosphoric acid content (per the MSDS), would attack the intragranular structure of the metal. That is it's purpose when removing/restoring rust. It etches the steel (or cast iron) to create improved adhesion of the coating. It's not there to reduce wear.
Here's an interesting thread on "Bob Is The Oil Guy" that indicates a GM lubrication specialist measured the effects of phosphate in the ZDDP compounds and found that above 0.14% it did exactly that.
I realize there is pro and con discussion in that thread, but keep in mind, ZDDP is used as an additive, in very small (~1,000 ppm) concentration.
GM debunks ZDDP myths for flat tappet cams | Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Cars/Pickups/Vans/SUVs | Bob Is The Oil Guy
Here's an interesting thread on "Bob Is The Oil Guy" that indicates a GM lubrication specialist measured the effects of phosphate in the ZDDP compounds and found that above 0.14% it did exactly that.
I realize there is pro and con discussion in that thread, but keep in mind, ZDDP is used as an additive, in very small (~1,000 ppm) concentration.
GM debunks ZDDP myths for flat tappet cams | Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Cars/Pickups/Vans/SUVs | Bob Is The Oil Guy
In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.
A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
01-14-2016, 05:19 PM
#3
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: Poor Man's Camshaft Lobe Hardening Treatment
@Injuneer Fred...Thanks for putting valid weight on the Con side of this idea... Pro Vs. Con Scale as I too had some concerns about the possible damage to the texture and condition of the Lobe Surfaces and the only reason I even considered its application was because I could SEE that what the Phosphoric acid was actually doing to the surface of the Cast Iron metal surfaces I applied it to and that it was allowing the protective and hard ZINC to bury itself deep into the Cast Iron crystalline surfaces.
I also did more research on the phenomena I could see occurring first hand.and this WIKI on the subject of this kind of chemistry directly supports my suspicion that it would work on the plain lobes of Cast Iron Camshafts. There is nothing new in the notion of changing the surfaces of metal for the purposes of increased hardness and lubricity. The only difference in THIS case is that I am suggesting applying the POR-15 for use in an alternative application for something other than what the POR-15 Manufacturer intended it for. But nonetheless ...the Chemistry itself is soundly supported for these very purposes...it just so happens that getting your hands on the proper mix of these unusual materials is not something readily available...but those very chemical agents of Zinc and Phosphorus are abundantly in the mix of what they use for the POR-15 paint and prep materials for. Here are the links to bear out what I am suggesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosph...ersion_coating
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/pho...rsion-coatings
There is no doubt that this is a bit of a radical idea... Nothing that comes from "Thinking Sideways" is ever Fool-Proof.(Chance Favors the Prepared mind... Dr. Louis Pasteur) ..but if my observations and guess about the metal hardening chemistry going on here are correct... So much strength and good protection from the direct exposure of the Zinc Phosphate will occur during the pre-treatment, that the results could stop Lobe Wiping dead in its tracks. As you suggest...It seems only fair that if I am suggesting this idea that I should be willing to put this unusual solution to the test. And that is exactly what I intend to do.
And so... to answer to your question and concern about first hand empirical experience... I have a 3.4L Re-Build Engine sitting on an engine stand right now (at this very moment) that has been modified lightly for performance with a CompCam camshaft, Engine Block cylinders are bored 0.075mm, Cloyes "True" Double Roller Timing Set along with the CompCam Performance BeeHive, Titanium Keepers, etc. and what I have in mind to try is to get my hands on a 93-95 Melling Stock Camshaft with the appropriate magnetic pickup front lobe as shown in this link to my other work:
http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60d...?sort=3&page=1
DSC00611.jpg Photo by 60dgrzbelow0 | Photobucket
http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60d...?sort=3&page=1
...and RUN THIS TEST ON THE MELLING CAMSHAFT FIRST and see how the metal surfaces respond to the pre-treatment after the 30 Minute Break-In period. The only impediment to getting this done sooner than later has been finding the appropriate combination of Carburettor Intake Manifold and 2BBL carb as well as the Distributor and Coil to be able to Kill Two Birds with One Stone and lightly break in the engine on an external stand. It has been eons since I worked with non-EFI hardware, so I will have to school myself in building the test stand as well. The reason for all this other effort is because doing this with the stock EFI and Intake and triple coil ignition set up INSIDE the 94 Camaro would be One PITA for the R&R of the motor afterwards. I would rather find out that this might be problematic on the Melling Camshaft first on a Test Stand instead of on the much more expensive and higher lift CompCam Hardware all buttoned up inside the Camaro Engine Bay. I could use some suggestions on the carbed set-up if anyone would like to chime in...I am all ears: In any case... I appreciate your critical thinking and input here @Injuneer... Thanks! -=Bob=-
GM34LNEWENGINEPARTS by Mr. RSM Mr. RSM | Photobucket
This is a Nitriding Service offered as an ADD-ON Expese to CompCams Solid Lifter and Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts:
http://www.compcams.com/nitriding/
"A Ship in The Harbor....Is SAFE..... But that is NOT what Ships are BUILT for..."
I also did more research on the phenomena I could see occurring first hand.and this WIKI on the subject of this kind of chemistry directly supports my suspicion that it would work on the plain lobes of Cast Iron Camshafts. There is nothing new in the notion of changing the surfaces of metal for the purposes of increased hardness and lubricity. The only difference in THIS case is that I am suggesting applying the POR-15 for use in an alternative application for something other than what the POR-15 Manufacturer intended it for. But nonetheless ...the Chemistry itself is soundly supported for these very purposes...it just so happens that getting your hands on the proper mix of these unusual materials is not something readily available...but those very chemical agents of Zinc and Phosphorus are abundantly in the mix of what they use for the POR-15 paint and prep materials for. Here are the links to bear out what I am suggesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosph...ersion_coating
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/pho...rsion-coatings
There is no doubt that this is a bit of a radical idea... Nothing that comes from "Thinking Sideways" is ever Fool-Proof.(Chance Favors the Prepared mind... Dr. Louis Pasteur) ..but if my observations and guess about the metal hardening chemistry going on here are correct... So much strength and good protection from the direct exposure of the Zinc Phosphate will occur during the pre-treatment, that the results could stop Lobe Wiping dead in its tracks. As you suggest...It seems only fair that if I am suggesting this idea that I should be willing to put this unusual solution to the test. And that is exactly what I intend to do.
And so... to answer to your question and concern about first hand empirical experience... I have a 3.4L Re-Build Engine sitting on an engine stand right now (at this very moment) that has been modified lightly for performance with a CompCam camshaft, Engine Block cylinders are bored 0.075mm, Cloyes "True" Double Roller Timing Set along with the CompCam Performance BeeHive, Titanium Keepers, etc. and what I have in mind to try is to get my hands on a 93-95 Melling Stock Camshaft with the appropriate magnetic pickup front lobe as shown in this link to my other work:
http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60d...?sort=3&page=1
DSC00611.jpg Photo by 60dgrzbelow0 | Photobucket
http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60d...?sort=3&page=1
...and RUN THIS TEST ON THE MELLING CAMSHAFT FIRST and see how the metal surfaces respond to the pre-treatment after the 30 Minute Break-In period. The only impediment to getting this done sooner than later has been finding the appropriate combination of Carburettor Intake Manifold and 2BBL carb as well as the Distributor and Coil to be able to Kill Two Birds with One Stone and lightly break in the engine on an external stand. It has been eons since I worked with non-EFI hardware, so I will have to school myself in building the test stand as well. The reason for all this other effort is because doing this with the stock EFI and Intake and triple coil ignition set up INSIDE the 94 Camaro would be One PITA for the R&R of the motor afterwards. I would rather find out that this might be problematic on the Melling Camshaft first on a Test Stand instead of on the much more expensive and higher lift CompCam Hardware all buttoned up inside the Camaro Engine Bay. I could use some suggestions on the carbed set-up if anyone would like to chime in...I am all ears: In any case... I appreciate your critical thinking and input here @Injuneer... Thanks! -=Bob=-
GM34LNEWENGINEPARTS by Mr. RSM Mr. RSM | Photobucket
This is a Nitriding Service offered as an ADD-ON Expese to CompCams Solid Lifter and Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts:
http://www.compcams.com/nitriding/
"A Ship in The Harbor....Is SAFE..... But that is NOT what Ships are BUILT for..."
Last edited by rsm93z28; 01-22-2016 at 03:57 PM.
01-22-2016, 03:47 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: Poor Man's Camshaft Lobe Hardening Treatment
This is arguably the Best Solid Flat Tappet and Hydraulic Lifter Break-In Instructional PDF around. Keep in mind that this is consistent with Standard Break-In Procedures that are NOT related to adding or applying any additional Zinc-Phosphate Treatment covered by the OP and mentioned with some legitimate concerns raised earlier by Injuneer.
I have never seen any instructions on this topic as well-written as this one is:
http://sbintl.com/tech_library/tech_...0Procedure.pdf
I have never seen any instructions on this topic as well-written as this one is:
http://sbintl.com/tech_library/tech_...0Procedure.pdf
