canbaufo

Doing a C5 front brake upgrade on my '94 Z28 and wondering if it's worth the wait and shipping to buy the ATE stuff or is the Valvoline Synthetic plenty good? What I like about the Valvoline is it's available at Advanced across the street from my work, plus it works with DOT 3 AND DOT 4 (won't have to flush my old fluid out so thoroughly like I would with the ATE). Links to products below, anyone think the ATE is significantly better to the degree of having to order it and wait? I don't think any local auto parts places around here carry it.

ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid DOT 4 | eBay

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00108322/k-G2371433?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc &utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gc lid=CP28iPfe7LECFcTd4AodrUQA4g

One more question, about how much should I buy? Switching to DOT 4 one way or the other so I will be flushing most if not all of the old DOT 3 stuff out.

canbaufo

Here's a comparison article that shows the dry and wet boiling points of each. I imagine there's more to it than that though. Newbie brake question here, what's the difference in wet and dry boiling points ...as in what does that even mean (wet vs dry)?

http://www.bestcovery.com/best-brake-fluid

paxtonLT1

Hello. We use the super blue in race cars at work most of the time but the reguler dot4 we buy for all other cars is the same stuf but with out the blue dye. That's really the only reson to get the super blue it makes leaks more visible.

I would recomend just geting the reguler dot 4. The ford dot 4 I herd is one of the best none racing bake fluids. I use the vw dot 4 or whatever other dot4 is around the shop. ( I work at a german auto shop)

Also dry boiling point is just the fluid wet is after it has absorbed an amount of moisture.

Good luck.

pgerst

Buy 3 to 4 liters. You may know this but use a pressure bleeder and do not touch the brake pedal, also ignition off. If you pedal pump you will get the abs pistons out of sync and the only way to get them back in sync is with the GM tech tool.

I use the blue as it is really easy to see air bubbles, even really small ones, while you bleed, thats why they dye it. Also 3 and 4 are compatible; 5 is not.

canbaufo

No I did not know that! Thank you so much for the info. Maybe I better wait a bit before I jump into this job, I thought it would be really simple. Do you mind to save me some searches and elaborate a little more about pressure bleeders? Have a recommendation?

What is the best way to completely flush and replace the fluid? ....I would think you'd bleed it all out from the passenger rear since it's the furthest away from the master cylinder, no? So far my only brake work experience has been putting new front brake pads on my 2005 Wrangler ....

Perhaps the ATE fluid would be better for flushing because you'd know all the old fluid is out once it turns blue. Or do you just pressure bleed the old out until there's nothing but air? I was thinking I'd do that and then run some new fluid through and out as well (to really clean the lines out). Then put the new fluid in.

canbaufo

Hmmm, I watched a vid and the guy says just disable the ABS by removing the ABS fuse and relay and it should be fine to bleed via pumping the pedal. Not true?

With regard to the ABS pistons. To get a complete flush it sounds like you need to cycle the ABS anyway (interesting way to achieve this is the method of driving the car to force ABS to work and then bleeding again ...if you have no tech tool):

Bleeding ABS Brake Systems

Will our system flush completely without cycling the ABS? ...the article says sometimes there are hidden passages and sometimes there aren't .....

Also I'm guessing the right way to flush the entire system is to never let the reservoir go dry, but keep feeding it new fluid as you drain the old fluid out until you get a new color ...correct?

canbaufo

From this LS1tech link:
Bleeding bone dry 95 camaro brakes w/ ABS - LS1TECH

"There should be 2 bleeder screws on the abs module, bleed the back one first, then the front one. After that, bleed the system as you normally would working from the caliper farthest away from the master cylinder to the closest. Then bleed the abs module again starting with the front bleeder, then the back bleeder. Then you can either use a scanner to cycle the abs valves to free any air bubbles, or if you dont have a scanner you can turn the key on for around 10 seconds or so then turn it off and repeat that around 5 times. Turning the key on and off like that supposedly cycles the abs. Then you are supposed to re-bleed the whole system. Repeat this process until the abs light no longer turns on. Thats what the actual gm repair manuals say to do anyway. It's been a while since I've done this and I don't have the manual in front of me so I might be slightly off. This was for a 94 too, so I don't know if they changed anything for a 95. Hope this helps"

...would this work so I could bleed/flush the old fashioned way without borrowing a scan tool or buying a pressure pump?

another take on it ....

"I have a 97 with tcs and abs and i just had to do the master cylinder. a local shop wanted a bunch of money to use the scan tool and stuff so i just bled out each wheel(pumping brake each time) then went to both bleeders on abs and modulator, then back to the wheels again and once i got enough pressure i could use the brakes slightly i went out in the parking lot and did a small brake slide to activate the abs unit, took it back in bled it once more and it worked great, dont get ripped off, itll take up almost half a day but i have more time than money so... anyway good luck"

pgerst

I never had any success with the hard stop solving the abs piston issue; ended up buying a tech 1A on ebay. I suspect the fuse pull would work for pedal pump, I have a motive bleeder, think I paid about 60 dollars for it. I have done it the old school way (2 guys using the pedal) and the power bleeder is way easier and is a one man job.

First thing I do is get most of the fluild out of the master cylinder. Use a pipette and rags and then clean all the muck out of the mc reservoir. Then hook up the bleeder and flush through until fluid is blue, two bleed screws on abs (rear then front) then RR, LR, RF, LF. Once you have blue fluid it is flushed, do the whole rotation again until you see no bubbles, then do it again and make sure no bubbles. I bleed intil i get 2 rounds with no bubbels anywhere. As far as abs piston cycling, factory procedure is to home abs pistons with tech 1A once before you start so not sure any cycling of the abs piston is required; if youre abs is working properly, they are homed by default if abs is not "on.".

It really is pretty easy with the power bleeder (they also make catch bottles which are pretyy helpful) so long as you don't get the abs unhomed.

canbaufo

This all sounds easy enough but without being extremely specific or having pics / seeing it in person it's just too easy to misinterpret directions. I am considering simply bolting up the front brake conversion and abandoning bleeding/flushing for now until I get more clear on it (too many different methods/opinions and I just can't sort through all the voodoo). Maybe I'll just fill/plug new/old lines between the hard/soft lines and bolt it all up losing as little fluid as possible and hope for the best for now lol.

I don't understand how/when/where you're watching for the fluid to turn blue. Logic tells me I would simly open the right rear bleeder and pump fluid through the entire system until it's blue coming out of the right rear ...then you know it's flushed. But I bet you mean bleeding the MC by itself first? Not sure what a pippette is, I will google it. I think what I'm most confused about is how to get new fluid in and old fluid out properly, do you do it just like bleeding or is flushing totally different? My logic of doing it all through the right rear is probably wrong (as I haven't read of it being done that way) but I don't understand why, maybe the old fluid can't "turn around" at the other corners and come out? If so though, how do you ever get it to turn blue at any corner? I watched a vid where the guy says "just open all four bleeders and let it flow out as you pour new into the MC" ...that sure seems easier.

I am really frustrated at trying to interpret this stuff properly. I need more time and study to truly understand how all of this bleed/flush procedure works. How is the power bleeder any different than pumping your pedal with respect to the ABS? How is it a one man job, does it not suck any air in with the upstroke? If I'd go that route could I buy this one:

Motive Brake Bleeders - Motive GM Power Bleeder

lol I could ask 100 other questions to truly be clarified, I have to be 100% sure before I begin. Since I'm in such a quandry of how to flush/bleed properly and don't want to get a tech tool ...I think I'm either going to gamble doing the relay/fuse pull and do it the old way ...OR .....I'll get a power bleeder and forget about trying to cycle ABS (just accept that there may be some old fluid in there). Arggghhhh ...so undecided! Thanks for your input and sorry to be a pain.

pgerst

That is the one i have. You fill the bleeder aboiut 1/2 with fluid, attach to the mc reservoir and pressurize it with the hand pump. At the bleed screw, you attach a hose to a catch can (motive makes these as well). When you open the bleed screw, the pressurized fluid flows through the system. The catch can has a clear hose and you will see dirty brake fluid then you will see blue (if you use the ATE); do this at all 6 bleed screws. Then you bleed abs rear, abs front, RR, LR, RF, LF. ) To get to the abs bleedscrews, you need to remoce the cai, the one that is further forward, and points straight forward, is the front.

I clean the mc resorvoir by hand as no sense putting extra crap into the system and it never really seems to get clean otherwise. Pipette is using a straw to lift fluid. Stick the straw in, put your thumb over the open top of the straw, lift it out and remove thumb over your waste can and the fluid in the straw will come out. No mess cleaning of master cylinder.

Make sure the bleeder is on correctly, not too loose, or to tight, pressurize it a bit and check for leaks. I have just gone to full pressure and had fluid escape everywhere. Also lots of rags handy, you do not want to get brake fluid on painted surfaces.

The old method is you have one guy in the car and one at the wheel. Wheel man cracks the bleed screw and car man pressess pedal to floor, this forces the air bubbles out. Wheel man close bleed screw before car man releases pedal or air will get sucked back in. Top off fluid in mc as needed. (They do make one way valves you can use by yourself at the bleed screw; again I have had mixed success with those.) Plus the motive bleeder can pressurize anything, atf, gear oil, just clean realy well with denatured alocohol before you run brake fluid again. It really is a good tool, it is one of theose "why the f*** did i wait so long to buy one of these" tools.

I reread the manual and there is a section for bleeding without a tech 1; basically start the engine and observe abs light. ABS light should turn on for 3 seconds and then turn off. ABS system is OK, turn off engine, and you can bleed; if the light stays on, you have to diagnose what is wrong.

When abs is functioning correctly, the pistons "home" themselves; when a wheel sensor indicates lock up, that respective abs piston leaves "home" and interupts the brake pressure, releasing that wheel caliper momentarily. Again, where people have run into problems is using the pedal method (ignition on and abs brain is on).

Hope this helps.

canbaufo

It does, thanks. I'm almost there, but still unclear on a few details. So I guess the problem with pumping with ABS is that it thinks a wheel is slipping when fluid escapes and then it unhomes. Out of synch like that the next time you drive your ABS is functioning full time when it shouldn't be, I guess. I guess I don't really need to understand it as long as I'm safe to pump the pedal with the key off (decided I want to get it done soon so for now I'm not getting the pump). I will also pull the fuse and relay just to be safe.

Concerning "cycling the ABS" to get ALL old fluid out however, wouldn't I need to flush/fill, drive the car and force the ABS to activate, then flush/fill again (to purge the ABS system of the old fluid it's "holding in")? Maybe not, as you suggested opening all 6 bleeders...and maybe all of the old fluid would be removed that way. What is a "cai"? ...I'm used to that acronym refering to cold air induction. lol I have no idea where the ABS stuff is even located ...have't searched yet.

I have a really nice fluid pump that can suck out fluid like a turkey baster, maybe I'll use that to clean the MC reservoir. I am weary of that though, as I don't know "when to say when" on pulling old fluid out. It does seem that you'd be pushing less of the old dirty fluid through the system by sucking some out from the top first, I like the idea but I'm afraid I'll go too far and get air in the MC.

I also have a "one man bleeder" that magetically clips a bottle and clear plastic hose to the bleeder. I bought a few sections of clear plastic hose (fuel line really) today, entertaining the idea of flushing all six at once.

Can I do it that way? As in, open all six bleeders and connect hoses/drain bottles. Have the person in the car pump the pedal and hold to the floor until fluid stops coming out (while checking to see that the MC reservoir does not go below the half mark and making sure the cap is tight). Then close all six bleeders and have the pedal man release the pedal. Repeat procedure until all six bottles show new fluid coming in. Once that is done, THEN begin the bleeding procedure as you described to get the air out of it (I think of the flush/fill and bleed as two separate tasks).

One possible caveat to what you said about the bleeding procedure, some people insist that you're to do the ABS bleeders in the opposite direction as the other four (do the front one first, then the rear). What's your take on that? Sorry so many questions but it's the only way I get the details needed. Thanks again.

pgerst

Don't think all six at once would work as the only one that would fully flush/bleed would be the shortest run, need to do one at a time. Again, there is no cycling of the ABS pistons required per the shop manual; the abs pistons only need to start, stay, and finish the process "homed."

The ABS bleed screws are on the front of the ABS control unit which is at the left front, under the plastic air intake on a stock car, the cold air intake outboard of the intake elbow needs to come off for access.

Also, while you are doing this project, good time get stainless brake lines.

canbaufo

lol yeah I took a look and the ABS is real obvious near the fuse box. I'm still not clear on how to flush ...arghhh. In time it will come I guess, I will have to do other reads until it becomes absolutely clear with nothing to chance. I know the shop manual says cycling is not "required", but is it ideal? ...that's my question. In other words, are there hidden passages that hold old fluid in until the ABS is activated, dumping the old fluid in and mixing it with the new. What you said about only the shortest run draining if I opened all six bleed valves kind of confirms my original thought, that if you opened only the right rear you could flush all of the old fluid out through it. Seems like once the fluid turns to a new color there it would be a new color at all the other bleed screws as well? I think the problem is I'm trying to conceptualize something that actually takes experience to learn and understand.

I am finished with the removal of the upper and lower ears on the spindles, along with the removal of the tabs in the inside that get in the way of the conversion brackets. I have ground it all smooth and painted it black with bumper paint, can't tell it was ever different

Now I am a little confused on some other little things once again. All four of the Hawk HPS front brake pads are identical with one exception, there's a clip of some sort that's located differently on two of them. It doesn't appear that it matters which pad is inside or out, or left/front right/front ...I can't tell and nothing in any intructions or write ups I can find says anything one way or the other. I'v read something that says you need to install anti rattle clips but I don't see how anything in the kit goes with the pads to do that. There are two clips that look like the OEM clips that hold the soft line in place where you attach it to the hard line, and there are two L shaped clips that kind of resemble the OEM clips that hold the ABS wiring in place. But I'm not sure what to do with either and the intructions are not clear.

I have almost everything sorted out as to left vs right (cooling vanes of rotors slope in opposite direction of forward rotation as installed, bleed screws on calipers face upward as installed, brake pads that don't have clips are identical so they can go on either side, but I am unclear on whether they go on the inside of the caliper/abutment area or the outside ...and which side, if it even matters .....the pads with clips go on).

LOL this is all SO SIMPLE, but ...if you don't know you don't know! ...gotta do more searches and mock up's, in the meantime if anyone has any suggestions to solve the pad placement mystery and how to flush/fill fluid properly please go for it. Thanks again.

EDIT: ARRRGHGHHH! ...after a couple hours of internet searches I finally figured out what's wrong. Since I got Hawk HPS pads they do not come with anti rattle clips. I guess Kore3 doesn't provide them since by default you'd usually get the GM pads that come with clips. This is what I'm missing and I guess I need to get it from NAPA or else ware:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1566684229-post4.html


I definitely don't have anything like that with this kit or the Hawk HPS pads. The pads do have a clip of some sort attached on different spots of each inner or outer pad (whichever they're intended to be ...notihng is marked and instructions are nill). Maybe once I get some anti rattle clips it will become apparent which pads go where.

Just ordered the anti rattle stuff from NAPA and it will be here today. I'm thinking the pads with the clips attached will be the "outboard" (outer) pads and that it won't matter left or right. I think that clip on the pad will butt up against one of the anti rattle clips and wedge on the caliper body.

One more thought to simplify the flushing/bleeding process since I've over analyzed it to death. Can I simply flush and bleed in one fell swoop doing the "Rear-ABS, Front-ABS, RR, LR, RF, LF" method?

btw I went with the Valvoline Synthetic DOT 3 / DOT 4 ...my old fluid's so dirty I think it will be pretty obvious once the fluid is bleeding out new. I may simply do the flush and bleed twice in upcoming months, to get some use out of the first flush and bleed but then really get it flushed/bled thoroughly 6 - 12 months down the road. Seems logical intead of wasting new fluid to be sure it's 99% new instead of 97% new.

canbaufo

Update. The anti-rattle clips were only $8.xx from Napa and they worked great. Everything's all bolted up now and I will probably put in new rear pads and bleed the system this evening. I never determined the purpose of the mysterious clips attached to the Hawk HPS pads but they are being used as the outer pads, it seems there is no difference with regard to what pad goes where. That clip might make it easier to push out and remove some day so I just put the clipped pads on the outside.

Mocked up the C5 conversion and tested brake line clearance by cycling suspension a bit and turning wheel lock to lock. Glad I checked, flex core brake line is rather long and it was rubbing the inside of the wheel at full lock. Just had to loosen the banjo bolt and adjust the angle of the line going into the caliper.

Last but not least, just as I was tightening the last of the four bolts that hold the passenger side hub on, I broke it off in the threads . Four hours and four hundred four letter words later I managed to remove it. Fortunately no threads were damaged. I was surprised, it's a grade 10.9 bolt ...isn't that pretty strong? It never did get tight like the other three and then the dreaded "snap!" I have put an OEM bolt back in it's place that can only bite about half the threads but is plenty tight. I will probably replace it with a longer bolt like the new one that broke, but I figure it would be fine if I left it that way.

Thanks for all the help you all. If anyone has any more flush/bleed tips or can clear me up a bit more on it before I try, please advise. I have the key off, the ABS fuse and relay are both pulled. I may do a one man bleed job with a heavy dumbell, lol ...not sure I trust the little one man bleeder (bottle with magnet) I bought from Advanced. BTW those one man bleeder valves pgerst was talking about having mixed sucess with, freaking $14 a piece. My plan is to flush/bleed (both at once) ABS rear, ABS front, RR, LR, RF, LF; then ABS front, ABS rear. I'll drive it and activate the ABS a few times over a course of weeks. Then bleed once again the same way, but mostly just to get more air out instead of flushing ...some fluid will be swapped anyway of course. Surely this will more than suffice and is probably overkill, and won't risk getting ABS out of synch or risk getting air in the system with typical one man bleeding methods.

I am sure the Motive Power Bleeder would be the best method FWIW however. I may get one down the road.

canbaufo

Bled it last night with a combination of two-man and one-man methods. While watching a one man bleeder bottle I commanded the wife on pedal pumps. I'd have her do 6 - 12 pumps per bottle and dumped the old fluid into an oil drain pan while topping of the MC with fresh fluid. To get a final bleed at each of the 6 bleeders I would use the two man method in spite of having a one man bleeder valve ...I'd have her pump it once, tighten the valve, tell her to let up, loosen the valve, pump ...even with the one way valve in the bleeder (extra insurance against getting air in). It went pretty fast and easy overall and WOW, my old fluid was NASTY! I have a nice firm pedal now and the fluid is a very light tan at each bleeder, almost clear. Tonight I'll have her stomp on the pedal a few times while I check the whole system for leaks.

I will drive it like this for a few weeks or months and be sure to activate ABS a few times. Then I'll flush & bleed once more and call it done for a couple years or so.

Thanks pgerst and others for all your help. I can't wait to see how this thing feels with the Kore3 conversion and HPS pads at all four corners!