Who's got "image"...Camaro or Mustang

Z284ever · 06-17-2002, 10:20 PM

This is something that I've been thinking about for some time now. And up until afew years ago, for me, even asking this question would have been ridiculous.

But I may be seeing things in a different light lately. With the 4th gens' dissappoints (really the whole 4th gen run, other than powertrains, has been dissappointing for me), and Ford getting it's act together with the Mustang.

The question is image...and who's got a better one ...Camaro or Mustang.

Reno Leigh · 06-17-2002, 10:49 PM

To me, neither one.

BMW M-3, Honduh S2000, any Porsche, VetteZ06, to name a few, those cars all have image to me.

Possibly GM could cultivate "image" for Camaro if the F5 struck the perfect balance...

But if you asked the average person on the street about desireable image, I think Mustang would be named more than Camaro.

Z284ever · 06-17-2002, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reno Leigh:

Possibly GM could cultivate "image" for Camaro if the F5 struck the perfect balance...

.

In a way it may be good for Camaro to be gone for a while. The "hiatus" may be a good way to reset the settings...so to speak...of Camaro's image.

A 5th gen's image must far exceed the 4th gen's.

BadIroc · 06-18-2002, 12:10 AM

I think that both have thier good and bad points, but overall honesty I think the mustang has more image..thats probably one of the main reasons why it sold better then the fbody but i still like the looks of the fbods dont get me wrong

------------------
1988 Camaro IROCZ "MIDNIGHT CRUIZERS"
305 ci Tuned Port 700R4
3"Exhaust/Flowmaster 80 series muffler/Dynomax high flow cat/CutOut
hypertech chip/k&n filers, cut MAF screen gutted air box
"Theres no replacement for displacement"
My Iroc web page....
www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html

IZ28 · 06-18-2002, 05:41 AM

The Camaro. I feel the car has more image, an image of a car, a CHEVROLET, direct competitior of F**d thats out there to best the F**d, and it does it. Its the musclecar that can do it all, and is usually always better than the other car using sportscarlike characteristics to make it even better. Speed, handling, braking, aerodynamics, whatever. Its just got a much cooler more important feeling to it. But times are kinda different right now, in the 80's and before F-Bodies were the thing to have. Now it seems to be the M*****g, but you look at the 4th Gens and see why it became this way after 3 successfull Gens that held that image. Even though the entire 4th Gen has been faster than the M*****g people still stay away from them. IMO most look at Chevrolet as the definetion of American performance, not F**d or any others.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 18, 2002).]

Z284ever · 06-18-2002, 10:36 AM

I think for a next gen Camaro to succeed people in their 30s, 40s, 50s need to "not be embarrassed" to own and drive them.

That means interiors which are nicer than a Neon, refinement better than a Cavalier and styling that beats Hyundai.

It means great base cars and focused, well thought out performance models like Z/28...(let's hope they can salvage the Z/28s "image").

I hope GM uses this "hiatus" time wisely.

guionM · 06-18-2002, 12:30 PM

Mustang has a much better image by far than Camaro. With all the special editions Mustang has comming up (even a GT looking version called the "Pony", no I'm not kidding!) it will grow even bigger. Kids out here in California love that car.

When you have people who don't even know that Camaros are still being made, or have people think they drink gas, or people actually thinking Mustangs are faster (all actually happened to me), I think it's safe to say Camaro's image is below Mustang by a great margin.

Darth Xed · 06-18-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by guionM:
Mustang has a much better image by far than Camaro. With all the special editions Mustang has comming up (even a GT looking version called the "Pony", no I'm not kidding!) it will grow even bigger. Kids out here in California love that car.

When you have people who don't even know that Camaros are still being made, or have people think they drink gas, or people actually thinking Mustangs are faster (all actually happened to me), I think it's safe to say Camaro's image is below Mustang by a great margin.

Ya know, I thin kthey are getting a little ridiculous with all these one-off Mustangs recently... I mean, they are really losing a sense of continuity in my eyes...

Just my opinion, and special editions are cool and all, but if you do 1 or 2 every year, they just arent so special anymore...

Z284ever · 06-18-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by guionM:
I think it's safe to say Camaro's image is below Mustang by a great margin.

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Mustang has really gotten it's act in gear now.

And when the DEW Mustangs are released...they'll also have a completely modern platform to work with.

I also think these limited series Mustangs are pretty effective at pumping up Mustangs image. The continuity ..I believe...is not harmed. The Cobra always remains the performance leader, and the GT is alway the entry level performer.

They walked a careful tight line with this imaging.... and I think did it effectively.

Contrast this with the way Chevy tried to destroy the legendary Z/28 image in order to offer a "hood ornament" and trim package.

Z284ever · 06-19-2002, 09:45 AM

...oh, and one more thing. I know afew guys who have traded in thier Camaros for Mustangs because they thought Mustangs were simply "cooler".

Personally, I don't know of anyone who has traded in a Mustang to buy a Camaro.

What are your guys observations?

TechCam97 · 06-19-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Z284ever:
...oh, and one more thing. I know afew guys who have traded in thier Camaros for Mustangs because they thought Mustangs were simply "cooler".

Dude, you need to bit*h slap your friends! ^_^

Quote:

Personally, I don't know of anyone who has traded in a Mustang to buy a Camaro.

1.) Mark Bestick - Traded '95 Mustang for a 97 Camaro RS. Reason?? "My Mustang was a piece of Trash."

2.)Harold Johnson - Owns a Ford dealership her in Temple, you can look it up for yourself. Owns many, many, Mustangs but went and bought an SS after he took one for a test drive.

3.) Amy Dutton - My own sister. She had a Mustang for 5 years. Sold it and took my White 97 V6 after I bought my Z28.

Personally, I have nothing against Mustangs. If Ford would get their di*k outa their a$$es and make something worth buying, maybe you'd see me in one. The "style" of the Mustang, leaves much to be desired. Come on guys, all they are are freakin boxes. They remind me too much of the 80's models. If and when they build a Mustang like they had in the 60's, w/ DECENT engines making DECENT hp than Ford would be back in the niche. GM tried to do it. Come on guys, a Z28 making 305 hp bone stock that can run high 13's straight from the factory!!!! That's not bad! The new Mustang GT STILL doesn't make more hp than the 93-97 LT1 issued F-Bods. Untill the day comes that drivers can switch cars and not notice a difference in performance and can respect each other on equal levels, we will always be bickering like this. Just my .02

P.S. - As for image, they both suck. That's why ricers are everywhere.

------------------
- Matt

Red 1993 Camaro Z28 M6

"The only way to increase a mustang's value is to fill it with gas."

[This message has been edited by TechCam97 (edited June 19, 2002).]

RiceEating5.0 · 06-19-2002, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TechCam97:
[B

If and when they build a Mustang like they had in the 60's, w/ DECENT engines making DECENT hp than Ford would be back in the niche. GM tried to do it. Come on guys, a Z28 making 305 hp bone stock that can run high 13's straight from the factory!!!! That's not bad! The new Mustang GT STILL doesn't make more hp than the 93-97 LT1 issued F-Bods. Untill the day comes that drivers can switch cars and not notice a difference in performance and can respect each other on equal levels, we will always be bickering like this. Just my .02
[/b]

You can add me to the list. I've come inches from buying one (opted for an sn95 5.0 instead) and am currently looking at 99+ SS's or ws6's as soon as i'm done with school and can find a decent full time job.

Hmm, wouldn't you consider 260, 300-320, and 400+ horses decent? and high 13's out of the factory aint new to the sn95 mustangs. The 96-98, 99, and 01 Cobras have been doing that allong with the 99+ Gt's and 99+ lightnings. Just thought i'd point that out.

As far as image goes, i'd have to give that to the mustang. It's still as popular as the day it rolled off the assembly line in 64. C&D, MT, Carpoint, and a host of auto mags and websites have had polls on americas favorite vehicles and the mustang was always on top. Maybe it's due to good marketing on fords behalf.

TechCam97 · 06-19-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0:
The 96-98, 99, and 01 Cobras have been doing that allong with the 99+ GT's

Uh, the new GT's don't run 13's. Every new Mustang ran a 14.5 or slower at the local track. There were a lot of them too, about 15. None could best 14.5 They were good drivers too, don't get me wrong. Besides that, it's kinda funny when not one, not two, but THREE V6 Camaro's (97 M5, 96 A4, and another 96 A4) can beat the GT at the strip. As I said before, it's not that I don't like the Mustang, it's just they haven't impressed me much since 94+ But God almightly, the 5.0's from the 80's were a force to be reckon'd with and no one can doubt that. As for new Cobra's, they are old and played out. Woohoo, 400 hp w/ superchargers....wow.....superchargers.....put the same system on a 98+ Z28/Trans Am or SS/WS.6 and you'd be way past the 400 mark.

Quote:

As far as image goes, i'd have to give that to the mustang......Maybe it's due to good marketing on fords behalf.

Thank you!!!! Someone finally figured it out!!! GM, ARE YOU LISTENING?!?!?! FORD ACTUALLY MARKETS THEIR CARS!! WOW, NOVEL CONCEPT!!! Anywho RiceEating5.0, I'm w/ you on most of what you said. I dig it.

------------------
- Matt

Red 1993 Camaro Z28 M6

"The only way to increase a mustang's value is to fill it with gas."

ProudPony · 06-19-2002, 01:43 PM

Putting my bias aside and speaking objectively, the Mustang has much more "image" than Camaro, especially for the last 10-15 years IMHO.

And all of the items you all have posted about so far are linked into that result. For example, many of you who currently own 5-10 year old F-bods admit here on this board that you didn't buy newer because the new ones "looked just like what you already own", i.e. styling issues. SOME(not all) have expressed discontent with cat-humps, long doors, visibility, La-Z-Boy seats, etc. You just don't hear these kinds of comments from Mustang owners - performance enthusiasts or not. To sum this paragraph, the Mustang has a reputation(image?) of being easier to live with.

I think guionM is dead on the money too. Ford has generated LOTS of publicity and interest in the car through limited runs like the first 93 Cobra, the first Cobra R, the SSP's, the Bullitt, the Mystic Cobra, even the more lame but special anniversary badges and Lazer Red/White Convertibles get their special followers. This gives a buyer an opportunity to be "unique" in their ownership - if that is what he/she wants.
Let's be honest... between all of the limited edition runs, colors, engine options, tranny options(remember the '80's when HO Mustangs had 5-spds a Camaro didn't even offer?), tire/wheel choices, interior grades, GT's, LX's, GLX's, sound system grades, verts, coupes, sedans(I wish were still around), etc.etc.etc., there is truely a "Mustang for every taste".

As for TechCam97's comments on performance... I agree with lots of what you said, dude, because I too am a performance enthusiast. BUT, you have got to acknowledge that not everybody (a relative few in fact) wants to own a rocket sled. Ford has known this from day 1. 90% or more of the buyers just want to look good driving a car that is easy for them to live in, financially and ergonomically. Truthfully, how often do we use 285 hp when driving? Not Often. In fact, Ford wants to make lower-performing cars from the factory and let you build the car to the performance level you desire with Ford racing parts or aftermarket - it absolves them of liability/warranty issues and keeps their costs lower. For the last 10 years or so, I really don't think Ford cared if a stock Z28 was faster than a stock GT (but I did!!), all they saw were great sales, happpy buyers, Mustangs everywhere, and Modded Mustang "Doin' the Do" at racetracks. Beleive me, people really do buy 5.0's because of the incredible aftermarket for them, and they are easy to work/mod with.

I totally respect that any of you might not like the styling of the Mustang. That is your right and priviledge to feel that way, and there is nothing "wrong" about it. But likewise, you should understand that there are others who DO like the styling - to see the sales numbers, a sh1+load of people do like it. The styling was in fact driven by public feedback.(please read on)

I offer this as anecdote for you guys here in GM-land that are already missing the F-body and not intimate with Mustangs... Ford got a regal @$$-reaming from the Mustang enthusiasts back in the late '80's when they were going to sell the model to Mazda for FWD conversion and sharing a platform with the RX7. Petitions galore, rallies at car shows and race events, publications, letters, etc. Ford got the message that we were serious. Management then began to acknowledge us - the buyers - for what we wanted and how we got it. The improvements to the Mustang during '91-'93 came from feedback from the consumers. Groups like the Mustang Club of America and large regional Mustang clubs were all used as "informed focus groups" and their collective feedback was taken seriously. This feedback resulted in the beginning of the retro thing back in '94 when the car got the side scoops, 3-bar taillamps, horse back in the grill, etc. Ever since then, Ford has been listening and I give them mega-Kudos for that.

The cars being unveiled today are exactly what we asked for 5 to 10 years ago, it has just taken that long to get them here. (Ref. this timeline to your conversations here about how long to get a 5th gen Camaro - MY2006?) We still get inquiries and questionaires from Ford on what we like/don't like about the Mustang and what future we would like to see it take. Ford, SVT, and Team Mustang bring cars like the Mach 1's and '03 Cobras to Fun Ford Weekends and big shows like Mustang's 35th in Charlotte to promote enthusiasm and also to get feedback and interface with the people. Is GM putting efforts like that into their lineup? Are they not only listening to you, but actually seeking your input as to what the Camaro should be? Image?!?!

Best of all, our "new" CEO Bill Ford III is a definite Mustang nut, so engineers and designers for the car are no longer afraid to go ask for $ do something unique with the Mustang - it will likely be funded if it's worthy. We have already been informed that the Mustang is highly praised by management and that there is no end for it in the prdictable future. This kind of commitment from our management... Too Cool.

To sum it all up, I think the Mustang has a huge advantage in image - especially with the newer generations of drivers, but it is not accidental. It is because the [edit]feedback from the buying populus was heard and given attention. I truely hope GM reads this post, this whole thread, and hears what you guys are all saying, and then the same end results happen for the Camaro as did the Mustang. It would be awesome to see the sibling rivalry go on as it has for over 3 decades. But please remember, you don't have to "like" your competition, but you should respect it. Camaro and Mustang are both awesome legends of the same cloth(musclecars), just different colors, and they really need each other to maintain healthy development. Let's be critical of them, but not bash on them - either one.

Thanks for reading the whole post. Peace.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 19, 2002).]

RiceEating5.0 · 06-19-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TechCam97:
Uh, the new GT's don't run 13's. Every new Mustang ran a 14.5 or slower at the local track. There were a lot of them too, about 15. None could best 14.5 They were good drivers too, don't get me wrong. Besides that, it's kinda funny when not one, not two, but THREE V6 Camaro's (97 M5, 96 A4, and another 96 A4) can beat the GT at the strip. As I said before, it's not that I don't like the Mustang, it's just they haven't impressed me much since 94+ But God almightly, the 5.0's from the 80's were a force to be reckon'd with and no one can doubt that. As for new Cobra's, they are old and played out. Woohoo, 400 hp w/ superchargers....wow.....superchargers.....put the same system on a 98+ Z28/Trans Am or SS/WS.6 and you'd be way past the 400 mark.

They do run high 13's given the right "conditions" and "driver". I've seen and heard of guys going 13.7's-13.9's with their stock 99+ Gt's. They're neck and neck with the Lt-1's in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

As for the S/c thing, you do realize that what you just gave me was an excuse? run what ya brung. Hp will always be HP. That same logic would go hand in hand with some stangers saying, "Ford can get 380+hp out of a Dohc 5.4 (Cobra R) and 320 from a Dohc 4.6, so if they were to build a Dohc 5.7L they'd blow the doors off both the Ls-1's and Ls-6's". Or the ricers saying, "we can get 240 horses and 120hp per Lt out of 2.0's, just imagine how much power we'd make with a whole 5.7L". That 03 cobra motor is capable of allot more then 400 some horses. That's 400+ "STOCK" horses. The goal here was to do it reliably. You could say Ford kept the power levels a little conservative. Exhaust and a few cheap upgrades would easily put it over 500 horses.

[This message has been edited by RiceEating5.0 (edited June 19, 2002).]