Buying the Hotchkis hollow FRONT sway bar separate from kit...
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Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,445
From: Seattle, WA
Buying the Hotchkis hollow FRONT sway bar separate from kit...
... it ain't gonna happen. 
After talking with Sam I'm pretty much sold on the Suspension Techniques 35mm solid bar, but I cringe at the idea of 20+ pounds extra weight up front. Not a BIG deal I know, but I thought I'd give Hotchkis a call and see if they would be willing to sell their 36.5mm hollow front bar separately from the kit (#2204). This isn't unheard of, since they sell a rear bar (#2203R) separate from the matched set (#2203) for the 3rd gen guys with the recommendation that it only be used with the factory 35mm option.
Here's what they said:
Just thought I'd give it shot with what limited knowledge I have with autocross (just what I've read and talked to guys about).
Anyway, if you want to as Wes and show some interest I guess it wouldn't hurt. But personally I'm taking this as a sign that the ST bar (through Sam of course
) is the best I'll get my hands on when I budget the money for it. 
After talking with Sam I'm pretty much sold on the Suspension Techniques 35mm solid bar, but I cringe at the idea of 20+ pounds extra weight up front. Not a BIG deal I know, but I thought I'd give Hotchkis a call and see if they would be willing to sell their 36.5mm hollow front bar separately from the kit (#2204). This isn't unheard of, since they sell a rear bar (#2203R) separate from the matched set (#2203) for the 3rd gen guys with the recommendation that it only be used with the factory 35mm option.
Here's what they said:
Steve,
From what we have found thru testing the combination of the front and rear bar the car functions very neutral in the corners. The problem with this in an autocross situation is you want the car to whip the rear end around due to the tight corners that are typical in an autocross course. We do not have any plans on selling the bars as a separate unit.
Wes
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve
To: Wesley Nielsen <wnielsen@hotchkis.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Hotchkis front sway bar for 4th gen Fbodies
Hi Wesley,
I have a question that's been buggin me for a while so I thought I'd hunt down someone who could give me some feedback.
The issue I'm having is with the "Performance Sway Bar Set" (Part# 2204) for 4th gen F-bodies (1993-2002). I can understand the concept of offering a matched set of bars for those looking to get into lapping days and road racing events. The problem however is that the 4th gen uni-body design seems to be quite finicky about body angle up front. As a result, many auto-crossers and daily-drivers have found that a larger front sway bar is useful in slowing transitions and under gentle cornering, limiting roll as the front sway bar seems to supplement the front coilovers.
The situation is so severe, that a Hotchkis STB I bought a few weeks after having my car made a very noticeable increase in even light cornering (I have a convertible and went a set further with sub-frame connectors as a result). I guess this is where the ides to "increase" the front sway bar along came from, as it seems go against traditional ideas for a car that already under-steers. With everyone trying different combinations, eventually auto-crossers found the best set up for them (and daily drivers) are to use a 1 3/8" (35 mm) solid sway bar. The bar originally touted as the "best suspension upgrade available" is manufactured by Suspension Techniques and typically runs about $150.
Now here's the kicker... it weighs nearly 30 lbs! While the performance of this item can not be denied (checkout the Autocross forums on CamaroZ28.com or LS1.com for repeated success stories), occasionally people complain about the size/weight of the bar. The story typically goes like this:
A: "I want to upgrade my suspension for a daily driver and occasional auto-cross car"
B: "No problem. Get shocks [...] and one of those killer 35mm sway bars".
A: "Sounds good... but doesn't a solid 35mm bar weigh a lot? Are there any other options?"
B: "Well... there is the Hotchkiss 36.5mm hollow bar that weighs a ton less and works exactly the same (even better with the weight loss), but you can only get it as part of the $500 set."
A: "Well... 15 lbs is a good savings, but I can't justify $350 more to do it. Guess I'll get the solid one"
I know it sounds stupid, but I've actually watched this exact conversation happen over a dozen times, and don't know how many OTHER people watched the same thing and didn't even post it.
I know your product is superior by its very design, and I know that its not unheard of to sell a single Hotchkis sway bar instead of the matched set (3rd gens can buy your rear bar, the 2203R, separate from the 2203 set, due to the factory's 35mm option they had available to them). It's common to see autocross racers with 1LE 4th gens ditch the 1LE's 21mm rear bar for the base model's 19mm bar because the rear bar is nearly ideal for slower
speeds (0-80 mph). Soooo...
Is there any chance Hotchkis would offer a 2204F in addition to the full-race 2204 set? If not in a "formalized" way, is it possible to get a price from you so I can organize a Group-Purchase on the front bar?
I *KNOW* for a fact that there would be MANY racers and daily-drivers looking for this bar if it was available as a single unit. Considering that the item is already made, and that the packaging alone is causing your company to lose sales to inferior competition, I just don't see a down side to offering the item as a single piece... even at $200 to $250 this would take a big chuck of sales away from ST's solid 35mm option.
Please let me know if there's any way I could pick up a front bar for my daily driver, and whether I could put some more people in touch with you that would like one as well.
Thank you for your time,
From what we have found thru testing the combination of the front and rear bar the car functions very neutral in the corners. The problem with this in an autocross situation is you want the car to whip the rear end around due to the tight corners that are typical in an autocross course. We do not have any plans on selling the bars as a separate unit.
Wes
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve
To: Wesley Nielsen <wnielsen@hotchkis.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Hotchkis front sway bar for 4th gen Fbodies
Hi Wesley,
I have a question that's been buggin me for a while so I thought I'd hunt down someone who could give me some feedback.
The issue I'm having is with the "Performance Sway Bar Set" (Part# 2204) for 4th gen F-bodies (1993-2002). I can understand the concept of offering a matched set of bars for those looking to get into lapping days and road racing events. The problem however is that the 4th gen uni-body design seems to be quite finicky about body angle up front. As a result, many auto-crossers and daily-drivers have found that a larger front sway bar is useful in slowing transitions and under gentle cornering, limiting roll as the front sway bar seems to supplement the front coilovers.
The situation is so severe, that a Hotchkis STB I bought a few weeks after having my car made a very noticeable increase in even light cornering (I have a convertible and went a set further with sub-frame connectors as a result). I guess this is where the ides to "increase" the front sway bar along came from, as it seems go against traditional ideas for a car that already under-steers. With everyone trying different combinations, eventually auto-crossers found the best set up for them (and daily drivers) are to use a 1 3/8" (35 mm) solid sway bar. The bar originally touted as the "best suspension upgrade available" is manufactured by Suspension Techniques and typically runs about $150.
Now here's the kicker... it weighs nearly 30 lbs! While the performance of this item can not be denied (checkout the Autocross forums on CamaroZ28.com or LS1.com for repeated success stories), occasionally people complain about the size/weight of the bar. The story typically goes like this:
A: "I want to upgrade my suspension for a daily driver and occasional auto-cross car"
B: "No problem. Get shocks [...] and one of those killer 35mm sway bars".
A: "Sounds good... but doesn't a solid 35mm bar weigh a lot? Are there any other options?"
B: "Well... there is the Hotchkiss 36.5mm hollow bar that weighs a ton less and works exactly the same (even better with the weight loss), but you can only get it as part of the $500 set."
A: "Well... 15 lbs is a good savings, but I can't justify $350 more to do it. Guess I'll get the solid one"
I know it sounds stupid, but I've actually watched this exact conversation happen over a dozen times, and don't know how many OTHER people watched the same thing and didn't even post it.
I know your product is superior by its very design, and I know that its not unheard of to sell a single Hotchkis sway bar instead of the matched set (3rd gens can buy your rear bar, the 2203R, separate from the 2203 set, due to the factory's 35mm option they had available to them). It's common to see autocross racers with 1LE 4th gens ditch the 1LE's 21mm rear bar for the base model's 19mm bar because the rear bar is nearly ideal for slower
speeds (0-80 mph). Soooo...
Is there any chance Hotchkis would offer a 2204F in addition to the full-race 2204 set? If not in a "formalized" way, is it possible to get a price from you so I can organize a Group-Purchase on the front bar?
I *KNOW* for a fact that there would be MANY racers and daily-drivers looking for this bar if it was available as a single unit. Considering that the item is already made, and that the packaging alone is causing your company to lose sales to inferior competition, I just don't see a down side to offering the item as a single piece... even at $200 to $250 this would take a big chuck of sales away from ST's solid 35mm option.
Please let me know if there's any way I could pick up a front bar for my daily driver, and whether I could put some more people in touch with you that would like one as well.
Thank you for your time,
Anyway, if you want to as Wes and show some interest I guess it wouldn't hurt. But personally I'm taking this as a sign that the ST bar (through Sam of course
) is the best I'll get my hands on when I budget the money for it.
Last edited by Steve in Seattle; Jan 16, 2004 at 05:06 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,445
From: Seattle, WA
Anyone looking for a REAR Hotchkiss sway bar? <rolleyes>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2454292103
25.4 mm doesn't sound like too much? I guess that helps "PREVENT" the rear from "whiping around".
oh well...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2454292103
25.4 mm doesn't sound like too much? I guess that helps "PREVENT" the rear from "whiping around".
oh well...
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,445
From: Seattle, WA
Tell me about it... I even gave him Sam's contact info in case he wants to "compare notes" or needs someone with enough pull to give a proper roll-out/launch.
I dunno... the only angle I can see is that they either have a VERY high opinion of their testing, or they feel that offering the bars separately would cut into the sales of their matched sets (which I doubt it'd be even CLOSE to the sales GAIN they'd see in the front bar only).
I dunno... the only angle I can see is that they either have a VERY high opinion of their testing, or they feel that offering the bars separately would cut into the sales of their matched sets (which I doubt it'd be even CLOSE to the sales GAIN they'd see in the front bar only).
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 376
From: lv, nv.
...does this make sense? If its better to have a stiffer rear sway bar for drag racing and its better to have a stiffer front sway bar for road racing. Why doesn't a road racer just get together with a drag racer and split the Hotchkis kit? Bill...
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 727
From: Wolverine Lake, MI
Or, buy the Hotchkiss kit, make the rear bar adjustable with the kits out there, and use the UE lowered panhard mount for a lower rear roll center. That combination is starting to look very attractive to me.
http://mtfba.org/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=151&
http://mtfba.org/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=151&
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,132
From: Atlanta Ga
Ahhhhh.... I'm a little slow
That is a good idea. Someone would have to manage the splitting, selling, shipping of the bars and handle the money. Of course, maybe a way for someone to make some money. You wouldn't have a problem selling the front bar but you might get stuck holding on to a few of the rear bars.
That is a good idea. Someone would have to manage the splitting, selling, shipping of the bars and handle the money. Of course, maybe a way for someone to make some money. You wouldn't have a problem selling the front bar but you might get stuck holding on to a few of the rear bars.