How to Clean Pistons and Cylinder Walls??
12-23-2003, 09:33 AM
#16
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lakeland, FL
Posts: 425
I believe that the culprit of most of these failures is that most people put in the new cam on their old worn bearings only to scour more metal into the mix. I can only speak from mine and others experience which I hold to a higher authority than most others "theory".
I pulled the heads off the car last week for my next round of upgrades and will be glad to post pics of the cylinder walls.
Here's a shot that was taken the other day but you cannot see the walls so well.
http://bedford.no-ip.org/progress.jpg
Maybe I misread the tone of your post dave1w41 but it did not sit well with me from the results I have seen in doing this on several engines. Tis the season eh bro
I pulled the heads off the car last week for my next round of upgrades and will be glad to post pics of the cylinder walls.
Here's a shot that was taken the other day but you cannot see the walls so well.
http://bedford.no-ip.org/progress.jpg
Maybe I misread the tone of your post dave1w41 but it did not sit well with me from the results I have seen in doing this on several engines. Tis the season eh bro
12-23-2003, 10:55 AM
#17
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Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lowcountry
Posts: 939
There are a multitude of reasons for engine failure, you don't think harsh abrasives in an engine is one of them 
We all know that there are some in their professions that aren't worth a crap, and I agree that mechanics has their fair share of 'em but I totally agree with him on this subject.
If you will keep with your ways, fine, but hopefully some other people will think twice
We all know that there are some in their professions that aren't worth a crap, and I agree that mechanics has their fair share of 'em but I totally agree with him on this subject.
If you will keep with your ways, fine, but hopefully some other people will think twice
12-23-2003, 11:24 AM
#18
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 129
GM released a TSB about six years ago stating that Scotchbrite pads or their equivalent were not to be used on any engine part, particularly intake manifold repair and piston and block tops.
That's good enough for me.
If there is flaky carbon, then just use the shop vacuum to lift it out of the bores. From my experience though, and that's about 32 years or so, flaky carbon happened mostly on carbed engines running leaded fuel. The type of carbon produced by FI engines on unleaded tends to be thin and as SAE says "tenacious", and therefore doesn't pose much of a problem, other than to some that think it looks bad. The engine was running fine with it before it came apart, leave it alone.
Making a part "look nice" is not the same as doing good work.
That's good enough for me.
If there is flaky carbon, then just use the shop vacuum to lift it out of the bores. From my experience though, and that's about 32 years or so, flaky carbon happened mostly on carbed engines running leaded fuel. The type of carbon produced by FI engines on unleaded tends to be thin and as SAE says "tenacious", and therefore doesn't pose much of a problem, other than to some that think it looks bad. The engine was running fine with it before it came apart, leave it alone.
Making a part "look nice" is not the same as doing good work.
12-23-2003, 11:32 AM
#19
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Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Webberville, MI USA
Posts: 148
No, you read my tone correctly. And I have had my head out of my *** for a good long time now. Aluminum oxide abrasive particles are found in the oil filter and embedded in the pistons and bearings of many a failed engine. Mostly because of people using them to grind on the intake manifold or head surfaces of an engine. Most post-repair engine failures are caused by sloppy work and unclean practices (including introducing abrasives into the engine) by technicians who should stick to front-end work, body repair, house painting or dog food testing.
If your engine survived this, you got lucky. I have seen many an engine killed as dead as a stone by using these products to clean them. As far as carbon buildup is concerned, if it worries you, you can use GM Top Engine Cleaner and a stiff toothbrush or just put it down the intake with the engine running. Engines use a carbon based fuel and they get some carbon buildup in them. Usually a flush with some seafoam or GM TEC will get rid of most of it.
If that does not convince you, maybe this will. It is a GM service bulletin. Is talks about abrasive disks but the only difference between them and what you are using is the shape. All car and truck manufacturers have similar information, some name the specific product as "scotchbrite, roloc, etc." Bottom line, I know what I am talking about and I don't need anyone to tell me that I have my head up my *** for using good logic. - You don't deliberately put any kind of an abrasive anywhere near two or more close-tolerance machined parts. If you feel you can do it and keep every last particle out, by all means, do what you want just don't tell other people to do it.
As far as ASE is concerned, they can't control what kind of an idiot passes their tests, there are plenty of idiot ASE certified techs out there. Any tech who would show you that method has been living under a mushroom for at least a decade. GM has been all over this issue since at least 1992 and they have published and re-published their bulletin several times.
If your engine survived this, you got lucky. I have seen many an engine killed as dead as a stone by using these products to clean them. As far as carbon buildup is concerned, if it worries you, you can use GM Top Engine Cleaner and a stiff toothbrush or just put it down the intake with the engine running. Engines use a carbon based fuel and they get some carbon buildup in them. Usually a flush with some seafoam or GM TEC will get rid of most of it.
If that does not convince you, maybe this will. It is a GM service bulletin. Is talks about abrasive disks but the only difference between them and what you are using is the shape. All car and truck manufacturers have similar information, some name the specific product as "scotchbrite, roloc, etc." Bottom line, I know what I am talking about and I don't need anyone to tell me that I have my head up my *** for using good logic. - You don't deliberately put any kind of an abrasive anywhere near two or more close-tolerance machined parts. If you feel you can do it and keep every last particle out, by all means, do what you want just don't tell other people to do it.
Info - Use of Surface Conditioning Disks #00-06-01-012 - (05/04/2000)
This bulletin is being revised to change the model years and the status of molded bristle disks. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 87-61-24 (Section 6 -- Engine).
The Use of "Surface Conditioning Disks"
When cleaning engine gasket sealing surfaces, and/or cleaning parts from an engine which are to be reused; surface conditioning disks (typically constructed of woven fiber or molded bristles) which contain abrasives, such as a high amount of Aluminum Oxide, are NOT recommended.
The use of such surface conditioning discs dislodges Aluminum Oxide (from the disk) and metal particles, which can lead to premature engine bearing failure.
The presence of Aluminum Oxide in engine oil has been shown to cause premature engine bearing failure. In some cases, this failure occurs in as little as 1,000 miles (2,200 km) or less after the repair has been made.
Surface conditioning discs may grind the component material and imbed it into the disc. This can result when more aggressive grinding of the gasket surface takes place.
Notice
Do not use abrasive pad/bristle devices to clean the gasket surfaces of engine components. Abrasive pads should not be used for the following reasons:
Abrasive pads will produce fine grit that the oil filter will not be able to remove from the oil. THIS GRIT IS ABRASIVE AND HAS BEEN KNOWN TO CAUSE INTERNAL ENGINE DAMAGE. Abrasive pads can easily remove enough material to round cylinder head surfaces. This has been known to affect the gasket's ability to seal, especially in the narrow seal areas between the combustion chambers and coolant jackets.
Abrasive pads can also remove enough metal to affect cylinder head, block, oil pan rail, and intake manifold runner flatness, which can cause coolant and oil leaks. It takes about 15 seconds to remove 0.203 mm (0.008 in) of metal with an abrasive pad.
Recommended Cleaning Procedure
General Motors recommends the use of a razor blade or plastic gasket scraper to clean the gasket surface on engine components that are to be reused. When cleaning gasket surfaces, please note the following:
When using a razor blade type gasket scraper, use a new razor blade for each cylinder head and corresponding block surface. Hold the blade as parallel to the gasket surface as possible. This will ensure that the razor blade does not gouge or scratch the gasket surfaces.
Do not gouge or scrape the combustion chamber surfaces.
Do not gouge or scratch any engine-sealing surface during the cleaning process.
Important
The appearance of the gasket surface is not critical -- the feel is. There will be indentations from the gasket left in the cylinder head after all the gasket material is removed. The new gasket will fill these small indentations when it is installed.
This bulletin is being revised to change the model years and the status of molded bristle disks. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 87-61-24 (Section 6 -- Engine).
The Use of "Surface Conditioning Disks"
When cleaning engine gasket sealing surfaces, and/or cleaning parts from an engine which are to be reused; surface conditioning disks (typically constructed of woven fiber or molded bristles) which contain abrasives, such as a high amount of Aluminum Oxide, are NOT recommended.
The use of such surface conditioning discs dislodges Aluminum Oxide (from the disk) and metal particles, which can lead to premature engine bearing failure.
The presence of Aluminum Oxide in engine oil has been shown to cause premature engine bearing failure. In some cases, this failure occurs in as little as 1,000 miles (2,200 km) or less after the repair has been made.
Surface conditioning discs may grind the component material and imbed it into the disc. This can result when more aggressive grinding of the gasket surface takes place.
Notice
Do not use abrasive pad/bristle devices to clean the gasket surfaces of engine components. Abrasive pads should not be used for the following reasons:
Abrasive pads will produce fine grit that the oil filter will not be able to remove from the oil. THIS GRIT IS ABRASIVE AND HAS BEEN KNOWN TO CAUSE INTERNAL ENGINE DAMAGE. Abrasive pads can easily remove enough material to round cylinder head surfaces. This has been known to affect the gasket's ability to seal, especially in the narrow seal areas between the combustion chambers and coolant jackets.
Abrasive pads can also remove enough metal to affect cylinder head, block, oil pan rail, and intake manifold runner flatness, which can cause coolant and oil leaks. It takes about 15 seconds to remove 0.203 mm (0.008 in) of metal with an abrasive pad.
Recommended Cleaning Procedure
General Motors recommends the use of a razor blade or plastic gasket scraper to clean the gasket surface on engine components that are to be reused. When cleaning gasket surfaces, please note the following:
When using a razor blade type gasket scraper, use a new razor blade for each cylinder head and corresponding block surface. Hold the blade as parallel to the gasket surface as possible. This will ensure that the razor blade does not gouge or scratch the gasket surfaces.
Do not gouge or scrape the combustion chamber surfaces.
Do not gouge or scratch any engine-sealing surface during the cleaning process.
Important
The appearance of the gasket surface is not critical -- the feel is. There will be indentations from the gasket left in the cylinder head after all the gasket material is removed. The new gasket will fill these small indentations when it is installed.
As far as ASE is concerned, they can't control what kind of an idiot passes their tests, there are plenty of idiot ASE certified techs out there. Any tech who would show you that method has been living under a mushroom for at least a decade. GM has been all over this issue since at least 1992 and they have published and re-published their bulletin several times.
Last edited by dave1w41; 12-23-2003 at 11:40 AM.
12-23-2003, 11:40 AM
#21
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 757 VA
Posts: 344
if yall dont reccomend using abrasives to clean the piston tops, what do you suggest to clean the block deck? ive got a bunch of old gasket left on there and it doesnt look clean enough to put the new heads on. im all about doing things the right way, input would be greatly appreciated
12-23-2003, 12:22 PM
#23
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 771
i use what they call as a "gasket scraper" they ususal use them to scap the old gasket particlest off, then if there is rust I spray a little wd-40 down let it sit fir a min or two and then hit it with a razor blade, then I usual take rags and stuff then into the cylinder bores, the spray the whole surface with wd-40 and use the fines steel wool i can find rubbing litely tell the surface feels smooth.
12-23-2003, 12:40 PM
#25
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 228
Looking back and reading that tsb I wonder if when I used an abrasive disk to clean the deck of the block I didn't screw myself. Less that 3,000 miles with the new heads I broke rings and my bearings are shot. Not saying that it was the cause or not but it probaly helped it along one way or the other 
.
.
12-23-2003, 01:44 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 461
Hmm, thanks for replies guys. I am just concerned with carbon particles that came loose when i cleaned the water out of the cylinders, and i wanted to get rid of those, and I dont have access to a shop vac right now, so i was looking for the best alternative. I dont really care how clean the pistons "look", i just dont want free particles sitting on the piston tops. can i just bring them to the top of the bore, wipe the particles off, and then rub oil on the cylinder walls??
Thanks,
Brandon
Thanks,
Brandon
12-23-2003, 02:11 PM
#27
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Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lowcountry
Posts: 939
That should be fine. I get as much junk out of there as possible but don't fret too much over it. Most of what's already in the cylinder isn't going to do any harm, it's the stuff you introduce into an engine that does the damage 
You'll tend to get some gasket material in there as well when scraping off the block's deck (unless using metal gaskets) but for the most part, even if you miss some, it'll blow right out the exhaust port and doesn't pose much threat to the cylinder walls, seats, etc. Do your best to keep it clean and you shouldn't have much to worry about.
You'll tend to get some gasket material in there as well when scraping off the block's deck (unless using metal gaskets) but for the most part, even if you miss some, it'll blow right out the exhaust port and doesn't pose much threat to the cylinder walls, seats, etc. Do your best to keep it clean and you shouldn't have much to worry about.
12-23-2003, 02:24 PM
#28
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 148
Originally posted by dave1w41
Congratulations OutKast, on filling your engine with abrasive. Scotchbrite pads are huge engine killers. You probably didn't kill the engine in your case but reccomending using scotchbrite pads to others is a no-no. It may not appear that you did damage but if you take that engine apart there will be numerous scores on the pistons, rings, and piston skirts to prove me right. The fine particles get washed down in between bore and the piston and there isn't any way to get them out of there other than to embed them in the piston and then they become little honing stones on your bores.
Take it from your ASE Certified Master tech with 20 years in the business of working on engines. Don't use scotchbrite pads.
Vader has the right idea in this case. Don't try to "clean" it just protect the bores with some oil and don't add any dirt during the rebuild.
Congratulations OutKast, on filling your engine with abrasive. Scotchbrite pads are huge engine killers. You probably didn't kill the engine in your case but reccomending using scotchbrite pads to others is a no-no. It may not appear that you did damage but if you take that engine apart there will be numerous scores on the pistons, rings, and piston skirts to prove me right. The fine particles get washed down in between bore and the piston and there isn't any way to get them out of there other than to embed them in the piston and then they become little honing stones on your bores.
Take it from your ASE Certified Master tech with 20 years in the business of working on engines. Don't use scotchbrite pads.
Vader has the right idea in this case. Don't try to "clean" it just protect the bores with some oil and don't add any dirt during the rebuild.
12-23-2003, 02:26 PM
#29
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 125
Originally posted by OutKast
Thanks brother....you ASEs need to get your head out of your *** and agree on something because I was shown the method by an ASE. I did it over 10k miles ago, have run scores of low 12 sec passes, sprayed my share of juice and still drive it to work everyday in the Florida heat. That my friend is reliability.
When the carbon has built up to the point where you see it flaking you've got to do something. I have done this with excellent results.
Personally...I've had ASEs try to work on the simplest problems with my car only to find they didn't know sh*t so don't push your glorified piece of paper in my face. Care to take a poll on how satisfied most people are with work done at the dealer by your ASE bretheren?
Thanks brother....you ASEs need to get your head out of your *** and agree on something because I was shown the method by an ASE. I did it over 10k miles ago, have run scores of low 12 sec passes, sprayed my share of juice and still drive it to work everyday in the Florida heat. That my friend is reliability.
When the carbon has built up to the point where you see it flaking you've got to do something. I have done this with excellent results.
Personally...I've had ASEs try to work on the simplest problems with my car only to find they didn't know sh*t so don't push your glorified piece of paper in my face. Care to take a poll on how satisfied most people are with work done at the dealer by your ASE bretheren?
Just cause you have a piece of paper that say's you know something that was on a test, doesn't make you an LT1 Certified Tech
12-23-2003, 02:29 PM
#30
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 148
Originally posted by TwEaKeDSS
lol I agree, ASE people are a buncha CERTIFIED retards
Just cause you have a piece of paper that say's you know something that was on a test, doesn't make you an LT1 Certified Tech
lol I agree, ASE people are a buncha CERTIFIED retards
Just cause you have a piece of paper that say's you know something that was on a test, doesn't make you an LT1 Certified Tech