86formula

Had a really bad experience recently with a machine shop and am wondering what you guys would do. Paid almost $600 to get the coolant cross over cut off of a Vic EFI and the bolt holes converted for LT1 heads and you can see from the pictures the quality of work that I received. When I emailed the machine shop saying that I want a new manifold (the one I sent was brand new sent from summit racing) I was told that I can pay shipping both ways and he will repair the cracks (not the holes that were machined almost too thin to use) or that I can go pound salt. My intake was sent to this shop from the one that was porting my new intake and specing my cam. When I emailed and asked for a phone number to call and figure something out (im on 12 hour shifts 6 days a week and with a 7 hour time difference in Iraq) I was told that I was not his customer (even though he got my money) and that if I want to talk on the phone I can pay $1 a min for his time. Since then Ive realized that I do not want to waste my time or my builders time sending it out to have shotty work done then send it to get fixed AGAIN (the holes that are too thin), I would rather just pay a little to have it repaired the right way by someone who values their reputation. What would you guys do at this point?

86formula

86formula

First let me start out by saying that i feel that Lloyd Elliott did just about everything that he could (within reason) to make this right. The intake manifold was sent to Lloyd straight from Summit racing to be port matched to my LE2 heads. Lloyd, trying to save me some money, told me that he would rather send the intake to a machine shop to get coverted rather than having to make a jig himself. This would save me both time and money. Lloyd ported the intake and sent it off to Airflow Development to get converted. Dennis from Airflow development, who is slammed with work, sent the intake to Bret Bauer from Bauer Racing Engines. Because this was done to get my intake back to me faster, Lloyd covered the shipping to Bret.
When my intake got back to the shop i was immediately sent an email with the pictures supplied. i called Dennis right away (still at this point thinking that he is the one who converted it) and was told that it was damaged when he got it (it was brand new). This is when i found out that it was sent to Bauer Racing Engines to get done because Dennis was overwhelmed with work. I called Lloyd right away who assured me that the manifold wasnt cracked when he sent it out and that the box wasnt damaged so it couldnt have been damaged in shipping. At this point i felt like i was getting the run around and started getting frustrated. Lloyd offered to pay up to $100 out of his pocket to have the intake repaired just so that i was happy. My problem with that was that i would still have to cover shipping, and at this point there was no telling whether or not that would cover the actual cost of the repair.

Email #1 from me:

Lloyd, I've been thinking about it and the conclusion that I've come to is that i do not want the intake manifold fixed. i paid for a new intake and i don't feel that i should receive a repaired one for the amount of money that i have into it. i understand that the damage was not your fault but you are the only consistent contact that i have and the only email contact that i have. i don't want to play pass the buck anymore, i understand how valuable every-ones reputation is and I'm looking for someone to make good on this. I'm not asking you to report the intake, as a matter of fact i don't even want you to port it. i want this to be completely out of your hands if possible. i want a new intake manifold converted (including the 4 center bolt holes) and the coolant area machined off or i want a refund for the entire intake and it will be returned. i don't think that this is an unreasonable request due to the frustration and added stress that this has given me. Lloyd i am not by any means asking for you to foot the bill but you are the only email contact that i have and Dennis claims that you knew about the damage before he worked on it so you are (unfortunately) involved as well. so whether LE Port-works, Airflow Development, or Bauer Racing engines makes good on this or a portion comes from each it doesn't matter to me. i just want this to be made right. please pass the word onto Dennis, Bret is CC ed.

Email back from Lloyd:

no problem with passing the info along and my offer is still good on sending $100 to get the intake repaired even though I should not even be doing that.

If someone wants to buy a new intake for you and do the work, that is fine with me but I can not be responsible for buying a new intake and converting it for you.

$100 towards repairing the intake is a gesture of me being a nice guy but there is a difference in being nice and being stupid.

Dennis did not do the work. He opened the box and sent the intake to Bret when realizing what all needed to be done (remove water neck, etc) and that he could not fit the time line. He did not do any work or make any $$$ from the conversion at all. He did not farm the work out and make a cut. He just referred the work to Bret. I paid for the extra shipping getting everything to Bret at no expense to you as well as thee shipping on intake from me to you. No hard feelings, I just want you to know that I have already lost $$$ and bent over backwards working with you.

I did not make any $$$ from the conversion and just shipped the heads and intake to Dennis for the conversion. I was under the impression that you had been in contact with Dennis and had the time schedule and payment all set up with him so I did not contact Dennis about the intake until it was shipped to him. I told you I had no problem relaying the $$$ to him, I just did not realize that you needed me to.

FWIW, if the cracked bolt hole is the problem, it can be welded and re machined and be JUST as strong as it would have been when new. If there are any other problems with the intake conversion, Bret would have to answer the questions on that but there would be no problem with welding the bolt hole and it would look like it never happened.

Let me know if the $100 will help you out any. . . . .

______________________________________

As i said, Lloyd has been bending over backwards trying to make this right and keep me happy.

1st Email back from Bret Bauer:

Josh,

The crack in the bolt hole is my deal.... here are your options:

1. Send the manifold back here and I'll fix the crack in the spot face by the bolt hole, YOU pay for shipping back. That's the only thing that is my deal. Anything else you want me to fix is $50 a hour.

2. Go pound salt.

********** should have the address where to send it back. If you want to waste more of Lloyd's, Dennis' or my time complaining and demanding things that aren't going to happen then my timeframe for getting this fix done for you looks like it's getting longer and longer. I don't think ***** wants to sit on your car any longer than they are.

E-mail me back ONLY which option you would like to choose and we will go from there.

Bret

________________________________

Email back to Bret:

Bret,
why would i be paying for shipping when you are the one that damaged the
intake? i don't think that what i want is unreasonable considering the
fact that the intake manifold has never even been in my hands. the only
thing that I'm demanding is what i paid for. i paid to be able to bolt a
Vic EFI intake to LT1 heads (not using 8 bolts, but using all 12 of
them) and i didn't pay to have a cracked manifold. i want a fully
functional manifold that ************ feels is acceptable.
you would be just as aggravated if you spent $800 on a manifold only to
get it back in the condition that it was received in.

Please explain how anything that i want is wrong in any way.
_________________________

Email back from Bret Bauer:

Well someone will pay shipping if you want it back.... I'm not.

You give me a extra $100 and I will put two more bolt holes in the
intake PER SIDE, just have fun getting the bolts into the head and
tightening them down. I realize this is the first rodeo for you guys
down there doing this because if you don't realize that those bolts do
not work then you have never done this before. Again give me $100 and it
will put those holes in there for you, it's $100 because your wasting my
time and I'm going to be PAID for doing work that is pointless.... but I
will be HAPPY to do it if you want to pay me. If you guys don't believe
me about this lay a LT1 gasket on the flange and then look where the
inner bolt holes go thru... how are you going to get a bolt under the
runner to even get in the bolt hole?

8 bolts is what OEM SBC Vortec motors have.... look at this picture
http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/80...9-12496821.jpg or look at
the OEM gaskets... no bolt holes in the middle.
http://images.marketplaceadvisor.cha.../68238/3000019.
jpg

THE ONE BIG THING I DON'T GET IS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND MY TWO OPTIONS
FROM BEFORE??????? Pick one and send the intake or don't but don't bug
anyone anymore with this BS. Your wasting OUR time.... and i'm going to
send the thing back COD for my time if I have to answer another e-mail
about this.

Clock is now running....... $1 per minute

___________________________________

there were 2 more emails but they were just about the center bolt holes and pricing before i decided not to put my intake or any other property of mine in his hands again.

dangalla

first of all.. there is always two sides to every story

but this does not seem right at all. and obviously something needs to be done one way or another

i am confused though, bret offered to fix it - and lloyd offered to pay for shipping right? why didnt it just get sent right back
although if the story really goes as what is written here bret should be fixing this without question on his own dime

86formula

the car needs to get done, Bret would only fix the cracks and not the holes that were no longer round or the ones machined too thin so it wouldve had to go to another machine shop anyway. there was no over the phone communication at all.

what you see is all that Bret and i communicated

dangalla

i have never done this conversion, so take my information for what its worth, and hopefully someone with some real knowledge of this subject will give you more information

as far as the holes not being round, that does not matter

the surface being too thin - it looks to me that he took off just what was needed to make the surface flat in order to get a good seal, and the fact that the holes are thin is a product of you using a manifold on a set of heads it was not designed for

and the crack he offered to fix

you mentioned that the box was damaged, but no follow up on that, is that in fact how the manifold was cracked and not the shops work?

and like bret touched on, does the shop that has your car have any experience working on this particular set up?
if what he said about the bolt holes is true that would make me seriously re-think the shop i had my car at and any information that they gave me

86formula

the bolt holes being round does matter as it would stop the intake from being able to move from side to side, the scratches on the intake matter, the surface isnt too thin, from the side of the bolt hole to the edge of the manifold is too thin. i used the intake that i was told that i should use by Lloyd Elliott. would you honestly be ok paying almost $600 for that type of work? or after seeing the work sending your stuff back to the same shop that did shotty work in the first place only to have to send it somewhere else to get the parts that were machined too thin fixed?

dangalla

actually the bolts being tight are what keeps the manifold from moving

i did not notice that you said anything about scratches before, can you post pictures of them?

bret did not design the heads, he put the bolt holes where they need to be

you did not answer the two most important questions i posted before

and i am not so sure the work was so shoddy as you say, if the manifold was broken during shipping then i see nothing wrong with the work that was done

86formula

no the box was not damaged and the scratches are in the pictures. if you read the emails Bret says that the cracks are from him. the holes are supposed to be round or Edelbrock wouldnt have worried about making them round it the first place. and yes my builder has built plenty of 700+ HP engines and has had plenty of custom machine work done. this is clearly sub par

dangalla

i am sure people will agree with you, and after this i am done

the holes do not need to be round, the clamping force is what holds the intake in place, shear force has nothing to do with it

the scratches are tiny, no big deal - paint it or polish the scratches out

and he offered to fix the crack for you, i have a real hard time believing it was shipped from him that way - if it was he screwed that up, but it looks to me like someone dropped that thing

and you shop obviously does not have the experience you think if they are requesting bolt holes that can not be used, i am not saying they are a bad shop they just dont have and experience with this particular situation

it looks to me that there is alot of the conversation that you are not posting, no doubt you have made bret look like quite a dick, and i do think the way he dealt with this was out of line, but he did offer to fix it and it seems like you pissed him off before the part of the conversation you posted

i dont see what the big deal is, let him fix the thing and get that bad boy running

86formula

like i said, the is how the intake looked when it was taken out of the box. 2 bolt holes cracked. the intake has a circle gouged in it like he put what ever tool he was using in the wrong spot at first. whether you think that there is a lot of the conversation left out or not there isnt. i do not have Brets phone number and those are the emails that he sent me. the first email that i posted from him was the first email sent from him to me. the first one that i posted from me was the first time that i said anything to him. regardless of what you think these were the only contact that we had.

why is this so hard for you to believe when he was banned from multiple forums partially for doing ****ty business?

at this point i wouldnt let Bret touch anything that belongs to me

dangalla

i did not realize you could be banned from a forum for the work you do outside of one... i am joking, i know you cant.

i am not a fan of him either, i just think you are blowing this way out of proportion and your demands are way out of line
he offered to fix the problem, if you dont want him too than that is on you - dont come here an complain about that,.

it should have never left his shop with cracked bolt holes, if in fact it did leave his shop that way, there is no argument about that, but he offered to fix it and lloyd offered to pay for shipping.

86formula

the manifold was brand new when he received it, i shouldve received it in new condition with the paid for modifications. if you purchased a new TV and the screen was cracked when they were mounting it would you want them to replace the screen or give you a new TV? how would you feel about being without the TV that you had already paid for? this is also holding up my build and a spot in my builders garage

dangalla

but its not a new tv

its a tv that you sent to one guy to make the screen bigger and to another guy to modify so that you can hook up your old school nintendo system with vhf connectors even though it was no designed to do so

it sucks that it was scratched and bolt holes cracked, but he offered to fix the cracks and you can not honestly expect them to buy you a new manifold and refund all the money for the tons of work that was done to it just because of a couple of scratches, that is just not reasonable

and again, two sides to every story, i am still not convinced that the manifold left his shop that way, could have been dropped in transit or your builder may have dropped it when he removed it from the box and scratched it then too

just to make this clear, i would be upset also, and i would not have sent my stuff to brett in the first place either, but i would be reasonable

86formula

i asked for a new manifold to be modified by him, not a new one and a refund. this is supposedly something that has been done by him hundreds of times. even if it were to be repaired by him i would expect him to pay for it to be shipped to him which was out of the question as you saw in the first email that he sent me.

1st Email back from Bret Bauer:

Josh,

The crack in the bolt hole is my deal.... here are your options: