Is America Still Great?

[HelloMrAnderson]

Originally Posted by PacMan the whole question is what is the definition of middle class and poor in these countries, middle class in america has far more financially than his/her counterpart almost anywhere in the world. the statistics are misleading. Look, the US has extended itself, partially due to military action. Western Europe has extended itself, due to socialistic policies. One is alot better for its citizenry. US offers opportunities and fosters an environment very unique to the world. It has is positives and negatives, and we have taken a huge social burden. I wish this would have been picked up by the United Nations, but that is a true pipedream People in Scandinavia have it great. They also would be speaking Russian right now if it wasn't for the US.

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[PacMan]

Originally Posted by HelloMrAnderson

Look, the US has extended itself, partially due to military action. Western Europe has extended itself, due to socialistic policies. One is alot better for its citizenry.

WRONG ! the US military is NOT the reason we are in $15 trillion debt and annually of over a trillion in deficit, it's the same reasons europe is crashing, social policies is bankrupting the U.S.

I will argue that the social policies corrupt society far more than it helps anyone, we are becoming a nation of whiners and takers, lazy and manipulators.

US offers opportunities and fosters an environment very unique to the world. It has is positives and negatives, and we have taken a huge social burden. I wish this would have been picked up by the United Nations, but that is a true pipedream

People in Scandinavia have it great. They also would be speaking Russian right now if it wasn't for the US.

no one wants to emigrate to Scandinavia , not because of the weather because it has nothing to offer people, socialized everything is NOT a solution to anything other than major debt.

[HelloMrAnderson]

Originally Posted by PacMan

WRONG ! the US military is NOT the reason we are in $15 trillion debt and annually of over a trillion in deficit, it's the same reasons europe is crashing, social policies is bankrupting the U.S.

I will argue that the social policies corrupt society far more than it helps anyone, we are becoming a nation of whiners and takers, lazy and manipulators.


no one wants to emigrate to Scandinavia , not because of the weather because it has nothing to offer people, socialized everything is NOT a solution to anything other than major debt.

Two points-
We have spent over a trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan (figures I see are over 1.3 trillion.) We will spend more than this with continual involvement in the area, the cost of veterans returning home, and debt payments. You are telling me this doesn't account at all? Of course it does. Now, I agree- we need to take a good hard look at social programs, as the percentage we pay on this amount greatly exceeds defense. But a few hundred billion in cuts is a few hundred billion.

Second - WHO CARES IF POOR THIRD WORLD COUNTRY CITIZENS ARE EMIGRATING TO SCANDINAVIA. I'd take it better if poor people with no skills can't go to a country that has no need for them. And just FYI, foreign born residents in Sweden is 15+%, in Norway, its like 13%. The Netherlands is over 20%. Those are not small numbers... The US has about 40million immigrants, thats about 13%, which is less than some Scandinavian countries.

Cheers

[Evilfrog]

We don't produce enough stuff that people want to be great.

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by HelloMrAnderson

Two points-
We have spent over a trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan (figures I see are over 1.3 trillion.) We will spend more than this with continual involvement in the area, the cost of veterans returning home, and debt payments. You are telling me this doesn't account at all? Of course it does. Now, I agree- we need to take a good hard look at social programs, as the percentage we pay on this amount greatly exceeds defense. But a few hundred billion in cuts is a few hundred billion.

prior to the "Great society" defense % of GDP was ~15%, today it's less than 5%, the military is NOT the reason we have debt and deficit, a trillion dollar war over 10 years is not the reason we are in debt, let's be honest at least when we debate.
When Clinton left office in 2000 the US government spent $1.7 trillion per year, today we spend $4.5 trillion, fraction of this is expansion is due to defense, you can blame GW, sure you can, but the expanstion of government under this president is unheard of in the history of the world.

Second - WHO CARES IF POOR THIRD WORLD COUNTRY CITIZENS ARE EMIGRATING TO SCANDINAVIA. I'd take it better if poor people with no skills can't go to a country that has no need for them. And just FYI, foreign born residents in Sweden is 15+%, in Norway, its like 13%. The Netherlands is over 20%. Those are not small numbers... The US has about 40million immigrants, thats about 13%, which is less than some Scandinavian countries.

Cheers

I am not sure what you are talking about, I am talking about the view of the US in the world, it's still the number one country people wants to emigrate to NOT because we have a social policy that helps the poor, you can argue that most of Europe has it better, it's because the financial opportunity and the lack of government intrusion that attract people here,.

[Z28x]

Originally Posted by PacMan

WRONG ! the US military is NOT the reason we are in $15 trillion debt and annually of over a trillion in deficit,

Originally Posted by PacMan

the military is NOT the reason we have debt and deficit

It may not be the reason, but it is a reason, and a big one.

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by Z28x

It may not be the reason, but it is a reason, and a big one.

Ok say we cut half of our defense budget (which is suicidal), that amounts to $300 billion a year, which is 8% of the total budget and 25% of the deficit for this year alone.
Now u tell me, is defense an issue ? Other than emotional issue it's not a real deficit/debt issue

[Z28x]

Originally Posted by PacMan

Ok say we cut half of our defense budget (which is suicidal), that amounts to $300 billion a year, which is 8% of the total budget and 25% of the deficit for this year alone.
Now u tell me, is defense an issue ? Other than emotional issue it's not a real deficit/debt issue

It is closer to $1 Trillion a year, so lets cut that in half and you have $500 billion saved. Lets put it this way, before 2008/09 we never had a budget deficit that over $500 billion.

For 2012 the budget deficit is expected to be $1.1T, so if you cut military spending in half you cut the deficit nearly in half. So yeah, military/defense spending is a big issue.

Government Spending Details: Federal State Local for 2012 - Charts

Originally Posted by PacMan

we largely agree, the question is, who's role is it to make these things happen ? high speed rail is a cute idea but not really feasible in a country as big as the U.S where most cities are too large to walk, you still need a way to get from the train station to your office / destination,

You can't walk from an airport either, yet they seem to be doing ok. You can always rent a car or take a cab from a train station or airport. I see high speed trains as a replacement for shorter distance air travel. Think NYC to Chicago or Boston to DC, LA to Las Vegas or SF. For coast to coast travel or anything over 1000 miles air travel will probably always be the better choice. Amtrak is a much nicer experience than any airport/airline (I love the leg room).... well at least in the North East. I've never taken the train in other regions.

The state and federal governments could build the rail lines and charge a toll or fee for companies to run their trains on them. Same model as the airline industry or interstate highway system.

Originally Posted by PacMan

especially where our road infrastructure is superior to all other countries, and people actually enjoy driving their cars.

Originally Posted by El Duce

But I do have a question to ask you . . . have you ever even been to a "2nd world country?" Is our infrastructure is need of repair? . . . absolutely. However, to compare it to a "2nd world country" screams of alarmist tendencies.

Come take a ride on upstate NY roads and you will see what I am talking about. I've lost 2 rims to pot holes in the last 3 years. It makes me want to down size my wheels to get tires with bigger side walls. You almost need to run 60 series at a minimum.

I've never been to Germany, but I hear their roads are much better. Thicker pavement, faster to do repairs, etc..

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by Z28x

It is closer to $1 Trillion a year, so lets cut that in half and you have $500 billion saved. Lets put it this way, before 2008/09 we never had a budget deficit that over $500 billion.

For 2012 the budget deficit is expected to be $1.1T, so if you cut military spending in half you cut the deficit nearly in half. So yeah, military/defense spending is a big issue.

Government Spending Details: Federal State Local for 2012 - Charts

The actual defense budget i.e. DOD is $700 billion, no one is talking about reducing veterans pensions, so yes 50% (which will NEVER happen) will be still a small amount of the deficit, is it money ? of course, is this the reason we are in debt, absolutely not ! no matter how much you try to spin it.

You can't walk from an airport either, yet they seem to be doing ok. You can always rent a car or take a cab from a train station or airport. I see high speed trains as a replacement for shorter distance air travel. Think NYC to Chicago or Boston to DC, LA to Las Vegas or SF. For coast to coast travel or anything over 1000 miles air travel will probably always be the better choice. Amtrak is a much nicer experience than any airport/airline (I love the leg room).... well at least in the North East. I've never taken the train in other regions.

The state and federal governments could build the rail lines and charge a toll or fee for companies to run their trains on them. Same model as the airline industry or interstate highway system.

In california they are building a high speed rail, budgeted at $100 billion, we both know that it'll double in price by the time it's set and done, but let's take $100 billion as their budget, Ca have 30 million people living in it that means that every man woman and child have to ride on this train for the amount of $3300 ($13,000 family of 4)just to PAY for it, this is before paying for the operation of it, we both know this will NEVER happen, same goes to a train from NYC to Chicago, the amount of money that the government will spend on this will never be recouped, not to mention the amount of government confiscation of private land that will result from this (eminent domain), I thought you were Ron Paul supporter, Eminent domain is a big deal to him I thought.

Come take a ride on upstate NY roads and you will see what I am talking about. I've lost 2 rims to pot holes in the last 3 years. It makes me want to down size my wheels to get tires with bigger side walls. You almost need to run 60 series at a minimum.

I've never been to Germany, but I hear their roads are much better. Thicker pavement, faster to do repairs, etc..

NY roads are local government responsibilities, I dont see why the government needs to take part of that, over all the US infrastructure is pretty good, the entire notion that bridges are collapsing is another grand lie to, just to expand government even more.

[pgerst]

Thankfully, I think the high speed rail is finally going to be put out of its assinine idea misery here in CA. Somebody finally did the math that was done above and decided that it was not worth borrowing 75+ billion on a bad idea so we could keep the feds $8 billion; apparently there is one competent CA government employee somewhere. Now we need to send him over to kill off our $6 billion in stem cell research, and while he is at it axe the waste of money that is solar power.

To the OP, I am not sure America is still great. I think a large part of what made us great was our individualism and self-reliance. I think the "great society" and the M/I complex has created a society where we expect government to do everything for us rather than leave us alone. If you think about it, what role or right does the federal government have in taxing all US citizens to the tune of $8 biliion (OK, technically they borrowed 40% of it) and then send it here to CA to build a train to nowhere?

[Melee Penguin]

Hasn't been for a long time.

We haven't been respected as a country except for out military for a long while now.

I completely see where stars is coming from since most folks generally pay attention to our own news outlets. I challenge folks to watch World News from other countries about what's going on here.

Honestly, that is what I believe makes a country great. When folks were doing their best to defect from Russia or some other country to come here, the land of opportunity.

It's not about Political Squandering, Green Energy, Nuclear Energy, Entertainment, Quality Products, Social Issues or anything else that you, I, or someone else have strong feelings about.

It's about earlier in this countries history folks made sacrifices to meet a common goal.

It's a Nation-Wide, "Not in my back yard" complex that's holding us back.

I'm not generally a very political person, but I challenge everyone to look at their voting history and ask themselves if they voted for what they wanted or for what was best for this Nation as a WHOLE.

Our issues aren't Republican or Democrat or Conservative vs Liberal or "This State vs That State". These are United States Issues that folks need to get together about fixing.

[stars1010]

I don’t think cutting defense spending is the answer. Again all of the Asian countries are throwing more money at it. One of the last articles I read in Indian was about how they are throw billions if not trillions at new military hardware. Everyone over there is fearful of China and building up there forces so they are not in a position to be over run. The ones that can’t build up their own defense are looking at the US to help.

We have the best military in the world, I think we at least need to maintain our stature and focus on reducing national debt elsewhere. I don’t think we need to voluntarily commit ourselves to another major war or any meaningless conflicts like Libya. Libya had no positive effect on the US and just waited millions a day.

Yes, Z28x makes a point that the wars that we previously fought last decade were very expensive, but that doesn’t mean we cut back on the military readiness or equipment. We just don’t go fight in any huge conflicts anytime soon unless we are directly attacked.

Back to my original thought: I will say this, after 20 days on the road internationally I landed in New Jersey a few hours ago with a huge sense of pride. I feel relaxed and comforted knowing where I am. We may be making poor economic choices, we most likely will not lead the world as we have done for the past 75 years, but we still have the best culture and way of life. I had a huge smile walking through immigration today.

[stars1010]

Originally Posted by Melee Penguin

Hasn't been for a long time.

We haven't been respected as a country except for out military for a long while now.

I completely see where stars is coming from since most folks generally pay attention to our own news outlets. I challenge folks to watch World News from other countries about what's going on here.

Honestly, that is what I believe makes a country great. When folks were doing their best to defect from Russia or some other country to come here, the land of opportunity.

It's not about Political Squandering, Green Energy, Nuclear Energy, Entertainment, Quality Products, Social Issues or anything else that you, I, or someone else have strong feelings about.

It's about earlier in this countries history folks made sacrifices to meet a common goal.

It's a Nation-Wide, "Not in my back yard" complex that's holding us back.

I'm not generally a very political person, but I challenge everyone to look at their voting history and ask themselves if they voted for what they wanted or for what was best for this Nation as a WHOLE.

Our issues aren't Republican or Democrat or Conservative vs Liberal or "This State vs That State". These are United States Issues that folks need to get together about fixing.

Good post

Ok, time to go catch my flight back to the best state, TEXAS!

[Z28x]

Originally Posted by PacMan

The actual defense budget i.e. DOD is $700 billion, no one is talking about reducing veterans pensions, so yes 50% (which will NEVER happen) will be still a small amount of the deficit, is it money ? of course, is this the reason we are in debt, absolutely not ! no matter how much you try to spin it.

You can't cherry pick just pieces of military spending, you have to include it all. Soldiers need to be compensated for their service and that money has to come from some place. We need to prioritize, you can't give everything to everyone. It isn't just the military we are over spending on, it is everything.

If we ever want a balanced budget again then we are going to have to make some very large cuts that are going to be unpopular.

Originally Posted by PacMan

In california they are building a high speed rail, budgeted at $100 billion, we both know that it'll double in price by the time it's set and done, but let's take $100 billion as their budget, Ca have 30 million people living in it that means that every man woman and child have to ride on this train for the amount of $3300 ($13,000 family of 4)just to PAY for it, this is before paying for the operation of it, we both know this will NEVER happen, same goes to a train from NYC to Chicago, the amount of money that the government will spend on this will never be recouped, not to mention the amount of government confiscation of private land that will result from this (eminent domain), I thought you were Ron Paul supporter, Eminent domain is a big deal to him I thought.

I don't expect 300mph mag lev trains over night. In NY we have the ability to do 110mph on most tracks, there are just a few sections that need to be upgraded. In some spots they are putting back in a 2nd or 3rd set of tracks that once existed to relieve bottle necks. The rights of way are already there and have been there for 100+ years. NY and much of the North East is moving towards 110-125mph without the California price tag.

Eminent domain can be a topic for another thread. It has its place, but has been abused a lot recently IMHO.

Originally Posted by PacMan

NY roads are local government responsibilities, I dont see why the government needs to take part of that, over all the US infrastructure is pretty good, the entire notion that bridges are collapsing is another grand lie to, just to expand government even more.

We have had bridges collapse, or be closed because they were near collapse. I've been on bridges with holes in the decking.

Originally Posted by stars1010

I don%u2019t think cutting defense spending is the answer.

And there is a person out there that doesn't think cutting social programs is the answer, or they don't think cutting medicare is the answer. This is the reason we are in the mess we are now. People are fighting the cuts at every turn.

[PacMan]

Originally Posted by Z28x

You can't cherry pick just pieces of military spending, you have to include it all. Soldiers need to be compensated for their service and that money has to come from some place. We need to prioritize, you can't give everything to everyone. It isn't just the military we are over spending on, it is everything.

If we ever want a balanced budget again then we are going to have to make some very large cuts that are going to be unpopular.



I don't expect 300mph mag lev trains over night. In NY we have the ability to do 110mph on most tracks, there are just a few sections that need to be upgraded. In some spots they are putting back in a 2nd or 3rd set of tracks that once existed to relieve bottle necks. The rights of way are already there and have been there for 100+ years. NY and much of the North East is moving towards 110-125mph without the California price tag.

Eminent domain can be a topic for another thread. It has its place, but has been abused a lot recently IMHO.



We have had bridges collapse, or be closed because they were near collapse. I've been on bridges with holes in the decking.



And there is a person out there that doesn't think cutting social programs is the answer, or they don't think cutting medicare is the answer. This is the reason we are in the mess we are now. People are fighting the cuts at every turn.

this is getting old....if we try to identify the major reason why we are in such debt, defense will be no where near the top.
Medicare/Medicade, Social security will take first 3 places, along with public employees pensions which bankrupting states.

Does defense can use a cut ? YES, is it the major reason why we are becoming Greece ? absolutely not !