Doug Harden

Scott,

I know it sounds like I've been extremely harse on GM lately, but let me try to explain.

First, with my sad dissappointment in the seemingly lack of effort with the styling of the GTO and the comments about the also seemingly half-hearted effort in the Silverado SS, but you know me well enough to know it comes from my heart and not just another GM basher.

I stood by the 35th Anniversary car because I knew your hands were tied with nearly NO budget to work with, but what could possibly explain these last two models?

I know the GTO is also operating under a limited budget on a stop-gap car, but it just appears to be the result of about $5.00 spent....even the official sketch is a photoshop of a Holden. The hood and front fascia look as if they were stolen from the Grand Prix.....oh, I guess if I squint real hard I can see the "new Pontiac" with the dreaded 'corporate design' theme....evident again on the Solstice.......what happened to model specific design?

Maybe I should be glad the Camaro died before becoming another 'toy soldier'..... please tell me it will come back looking like a Camaro...please?

Many of us wonder why the new Silverado SS looks to be a paint, sticker, embroidered headrest attempt at offering something in the vein of the Lightning....but it falls WAY short in the hp dept....why?

It's hard to "keep the faith" when it seems GM has lost it's focus.....or it's nerve?!

Sorry for the hard time, but you know I rarely bite my tounge....LOL!!

See you in Bowling Green! (BTW, try Nicorette, I'd like to keep you around for a long time!)

[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited July 02, 2002).]

IZ28

I have to say I agree with this post. When are we gonna start getting REALLY good things from GM.

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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic.

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 02, 2002).]

jrp4uc

And what of the 50th anniv. Corvette and next year's Impala SS? There seems to be a lot of instances of "no budget."

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-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

LT1runner

I figured on who Red is and maybe half the world knows who he is, but why name names?

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Chris-95Z28M6-Vortech 355 @15PSI
Member of MTFBA (Middle Tennessee F-Body Association)

90 TSi (AWD) TRE Big16G@20psi Ported & 10degree clip Turbo, TRE 2G ported Exh Mani., TRE 2G ported O2 housing, RRE turbo outlet pipe, FMIC L28"xH10"xW3.5", Bored .040, 2G pistons, 2nd Gen MAS, 550cc Inj., APEXi S-AFC(old style), !Boost solenoid, !EGR, 2.5" Down pipe, 3" Flex, 3"Exhaust, 3"Ractive Turbo Muffler, Boost Gauge, A/F gauge, JoeP Boost controller, Dejon Tool Intake, Dual Fiction Clutch, Locked Diff.
Wants to be green'd

92 Laser RS(AWD) Taking back to stock (selling soon)

BOOST, ADD FUEL!

Z28Wilson

I love the look of the 35th SS. If anyone hasn't seen one in person, go to a Camaro show before you put it down. Very sharp. Sure I woulda loved the LS6 to top if off but....yeah right lol. The 50th Vette is the real disappointment.


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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

jrp4uc

I've seen several examples of the 35th SS and CE Trans Am. Nice appearance packages, but not so nice for a $45k going away present.

Doug Harden

I saw the 35th Anniv. car a full two weeks before it was unvieled...I drove the BY400 car #44 for 3+ months until I gave it back after Bowling Green last Sept....(yes, GM let me use it)....my club hosted the Official 35th Anniv. B-Day party at IRP....so I'm quite familiar w/ the car....I will say I got 99% thumbs up from everyone I met while driving that car. People love to see special Camaros.

BUT, if I compare the "content" of this car to say a Bullitt Mustang......well you'll see the difference in money spent and philosophies.

Like I said, I know all too well the limited $$$ Scott had to work with.

Now go look at a Bullitt for example....(had one in the shop for a while) billet alum. switch gear for things like PW's, etc... phaux billet trim for the doors and dash, special kick plates, retro styling for the gages, special wheels, better shocks, Brembo brakes! special nameplates, alum. race style gas filler door, etc.............Fords might be slow, but they do know how to option a special edition.

Maybe when Lutz gets thing ironed out we'l get more....:crosses fingers:

Z284ever

I'm crossing my fingers and toes.

PonchoFan

I'm sure sick of half-assed graphics packages
that are passed off as 'special editions' and anniversary models.
Monte Carlo SS my ***. The thing is a disgrace to the SS heritage. And the 50th Grand Prix-2 tone seats and some hood scoops for $2400. And the 50th Vette... And on. And on.
Ford is looking better every day.

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'98 TA A4/3.23/ASCD WS6 HOOD/WS6 LOWER AIRBOX & DECAL/WHISPER LID& MAF/RANDOM TECH CATBACK/4"CHROME TIPS
Yank ST3000 Converter
299 RWHP/320.5 FT/LBS TQ

BigDarknFast

Doug you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and you have some interesting points to make... but I disagree wholeheartedly with the entire post. The word "whining" comes to mind. It's easy for various folks to sit back and complain about GM being too cheap, not following Ford's lead on content, etc... until YOU try to run a large company like GM at a profit (remember... that's their primary duty to the corporation's shareholders). Not saying customers come second, but if you cannot operate at a profit it puts a lot at risk, including funds for new vehicle development, as well as immediate things like quality. Bummed GM has no 2003 LS6 Camaro to go up against the new Cobra (BTW I am not referring to you Doug per se)? Sure the Cobra has gobs of HP. It also is becoming clear it has a rash of quality problems. Misfiring cylinders, intermittent S/C boost loss, and chronic misalignment on at least three cars out of the paltry sum already on the street:

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthrea...hreadid=172947

I for one am tired of all the whiners coming to this site and moaning how GM has forsaken us poor little performance fans. Might as well ignore the Z06, the upcoming GTO and LS1 CTSi, the SSR, the 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix, and on and on. Might as well ignore the value pricing and the good and increasing quality coming from GM, the amzing powerplants with real power, torque AND surprising fuel economy to boot.

What does Red Planet have to do with Pontiac? If anything I would think he would like to see the GTO fall flat on its face (sorry cynicists... not gonna happen ).

Those of you perpetually complaining about GM... perhaps its time for you trade your pesky GM iron for a wonderful foreign make or Ford. I on the other hand am thoroughly enjoying all my GM cars, and am waiting patiently for Red Planet to do his work. I firmly believe the Camaro will be back, better than ever, and I will be ready when it is.

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NBM 99Formula, DF Lid, K&N, SLP WS6 Takeoff Muffler | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, transcooler
| Dark Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, stock

Doug Harden

Boy did you miss the point of this thread...

I have NEVER complained about the lack of performance.

My complaints lie directly at the feet of those inside GM who are putting out product that is "just good enough".

Just good enough styling...I'll let this go....it's all opinion afterall

Just good enough rearends (busted a ten bolt lately?)

Just good enough transmissions (remember the BW T-56 was much stronger before someone made a buck and sold it to Tremec with thier composite internals)

Just good enough "special editions"(stripes & floormats)

I've said it before, If you are ready to accept mediocrity then be my guest.

Why can't people make a point without the personal attacks (whiners). It's NOT whining if all you are trying to do is to push GM to excel...don't you care?

BTW, I've been self-employed for my entire 30+ years of working so I know ALL about running a company, thank you very much.......

Z284ever

I think if none of us had the gumption to raise debate, differing opinion or dissatisfaction with the status quo and we were all in "lockstep" agreement on the "superiority" of GM products....this would be a pretty boring place.

....also, we'd probably all be driving four cylinder Celebritys.......and LOVIN' IT !!!

HuJass

Doug,
I have to agree with you on some of these points.
After I took delivery of my C/E last Nov., I posted on a few peculiarities of the car. Like a steering column that looked like one from a mid-80s Oldsmobile, no under-hood light, no cargo well light, etc, etc.
And after cleaning the interior for a car show, I noticed how cheap the plastics are. The parting lines are super-visible and really rough.
And you're right. How come no special gauge cluster, or pedals, or trim bits? We know GM couldn't put the LS6 in the car, but how come we couldn't get a better airbox lid and filter, like the Firehawks?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my C/E but it's these little details that get you wondering. I paid $37K (with tax) for the car and I feel like the car shouldn't have cost that much. It's like they're charging a premium for the name, engine, and RWD.

FUTURE_OF_GM

EEEEENOUGH ALREADY!!!!

Let me first say that I value the opinion of each and everyone of you, and that this is one of my favorite boards.......

BUT lately everyone here has been SOOOO negative.... I mean GEEZ LOUISE apparently GM can't do anything right in this crowds eyes anymore!

Mr. Harden brings up some VERY valid points. We have been settling for "Just enough" from GM for years now, whether it be compromised design, bad reliability, or function instead of form. BUT THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER Rome wasn't built in a day folks.

The new GTO...... THEY HAD ROUGHLY A YEAR TO CREATE THIS CAR, and I for one think they did an amazing job compared to the "Old GM" Of course, it could be better, but that will come with time.

The Silverado SS may not be the king of the hill yet, but they'll sell........ they'll sell all of them, and remember, when the Lightning first came out it wasn't all that impressive either. BTW Rumors say that next year we will get our regular cab 400+ HP beast that we want.

The Impala SS, while not what we view as the traditional SS. The Impala is selling very well. So why not build upon that, especially as a stop gap.

BigDarknFast brings up some interesting points as well..... There is a lot of whinning that goes on here.

As for Ford.... Well they are good at what they do, and I respect them a lot for that.

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"THE F_O_G HAS RISEN, AND WITH IT BEGINS THE DAWN OF A NEW ERA."

1967-2002, Thanks for 35 years of prestige and performance...... We look forward to the FUTURE.

ProudPony

BDnF, wow. Where did this come from?

First, let me say that there may be a fine line between whining and constructive criticism - but that whole post you just made was equally (if not more so) degrading to other people in this forum, as Doug's original post(letter) was to Red or GM. At least Doug's letter was intended to generate some positive result for the company and it's followers... yours was more to offend certain followers (for "whining") - period.

A comment on "following Ford's lead... I give criticism to Ford constantly but do it in a professional way and usually with ideas to resolve the issue at question. So even as a Ford guy, I don't think Ford is "on top" by any means - BUT they are trying hard and seem to be going in the right direction.

As for the issues with the 03 Cobras... You DO realize that aside from skin and unibody, this is pretty much an entirely "new" car, right? New... engine config, tranny, IRS, springs, bushings, rims, tires, etc. Are you thinking that ANYBODY would be able to start rolling off cars - especially during their line set-up/test assembly - without some glitches? Never heard of "new car problems"? I'm not going to even try to defend their problems, but let's be honest... the whole freakin' world is hanging on every post made about this car right now. Maybe these issues are getting a little too much hype?

I'm gonna leave the "amazing powerplants with real power" issues alone. I think you all have these points figured out for yourselves... if GM will just use them properly. (after all, I am a 5.0 Mustang owner for the last 10 years! )

Lastly, you said,"Those of you perpetually complaining about GM... perhaps its time for you trade your pesky GM iron for a wonderful foreign make or Ford."
Well, you say "complaining", I say "trying to imrove". 1/2 glass of water... is it half-full or half-empty?

I will say this to you though... if you have been happy with GM for the last 10 years - congratulations! You now have ump-teen FWD V6's named after past performers with a plethora of stripe kits to choose from! And which one to choose... the choice will be tough, especially now that the F-bodies are history too. Oh wait, there IS a choice... ONE choice... the GrandTO!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but if you don't see the trends, I can't be of any help. But to sit and "wait patiently" for someone else to act is lame, and hasn't really worked for the last 10 years. WE need to all pull together and insist on a new philosophy that provides GM loyalist (and everybody else who wants nice cars) with what is wanted, not what they will settle for.

I really hope this doesn't flame you - 'cause I don't mean it as a personal attack on you at all. I just want to get you guys to understand that we are not "complaining" and that each and every one of you can make a difference. At least Doug is trying.

Peace.