guionM

Cadillac's flagship has the official go ahead. The design is based on the Ciel, but don't expect it to be a 4 door convertible as that concept is. I personally don't believe production of the car was ever in doubt once GM figured out how to pay for it, as production of this car a big priority at GM, let alone Cadillac.

The car is going to be directly aimed at BMW's 7 series, so it's exterior dimensions will be very close to the current 7 series. Like the ATS vs BMW's 3 series, expect it to have both a cost and weight advantage over it's BMW competitor.

It's certain to be based on a variation of GM's Zeta platform (not Alpha or the soon to be discontinued Sigma), and have the next gen V8 standard (the only Cadillac outside the CTSv to have one, and the only Cadillac to likely have standard).

Expect to actually see it within 20 months.

Expect to actually buy it before the end of 2014.

ImportedRoomate

Omega? There were also some rumors of a high feature V8 in development for Cadillac only.

King Moose SS

Darn No Gen V powered ATS-V

96_Camaro_B4C

Don't bet on it.

I've read more than once that the small block fits in the ATS.

bossco

If the next gen Camaro is based on alpha I would think this would be a prerequsite. I know in the post bloated gas sucking world of today its all supposed to be unicorn farts and turbo chargers on one liter fours giving you the ZL1 power of today and the gas mileage of the Volt but methinks there are enought well-heeled knuckle dragging slack-jawed trogledytes around to make an alpha based V8 profitable.

Well I hope so at least, irreverent automodiles like the V8 F-body and the V8 Mustang and thier ridiculous amounts of horsepower make the world an interesting place (even if they are absurd).

Z28Wilson

Yeah, quite honestly I would be shocked if there was no ATS-V introduced in the 2014/2015 model year.

jg95z28

There may be an ATS-V, but does the "V" mean it has to have a V8? With the V6 already pumping out 321 hp, how much more horsepower does a 3400 lb sedan need?

In my mind, a turbo diesel version of the ATS would be more suited based upon its competition.

ImportedRoomate

Around 450hp to compete with the M3/M4 . You can get there with a NA gen V V8, or a turbo 6.

Indelibility

How much more power?! Is that really a question?

guionM

Not aware of any, unless GM dusts off the Northstar replacement that was shelved.

Omega isn't an all new chassis. It's going to be "new" but it will be based on Zeta.

BTW... FWIW, the last GTO (as with all prior Holden RWD cars) were on Omega platforms.

(it's almost silly I have to point this out before someone comes along and twists it, but no, this doesn't mean the Cadillac will be based on the old GTO. Like "F-body", Omega is name)

An over-exaggeration there Boss...GM, Ford, and especially Chrysler are all slated to have V8s in their lineup at least all the way through this decade.

CAFE is all about the average fuel economy number based on the total cars sold within a car company. High volume cars like Malibu and Cruze where the volume is measured in potentially 200,000 cars per year are getting the focus on downsizing engines since there are the cars that are going to make or break them on CAFE. The 30 to 35K V8 Camaros Mustangs made annually are a drop in the bucket when you consider that both GM and Ford produce over a million cars per year. Especially when you consider that sales of the Volt at GM (which is about to be expanded to Cadillac and Buick) and the Electric cars Ford makes (not to mention the high volume Fusion that has a 47mpg hybrid that's no more expensive than a midlevel conventional version) counters any drag ZL1s and GT500s have on CAFE.

Also consider that any fuel saving technology done for high volume V8 trucks are going to wind up in cars as well. We already have DOD. Next up is direct injection and start-stop technology.

V8s have been pulled out of mainstream cars for years. Chrysler still has them, but the Hemi gets better fuel economy than most all import V6s. With N/A V6s now routinely putting out over 300 horsepower (soon to be 350hp and production turbo V6s at the verge of putting out 400), there really isn't any point of having V8s in passenger cars outside of tradition. Plus, the public isn't intrested in V8s anymore as a group. Even young enthusiasts look down on V8s next to turbo 4s.

The future of the V8 (outside of trucks) is in mega powered cars. Sure, there will still be V8s in Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers (it's now been extended till at least MY2017), and Chrysler's LX sedan, but for the most part, the V6 is now the "new V8", while turbo 4s are the "new V6".

You'll still have V8s, but like today (where V8 models cost up to $10,000 over base models), you'll be paying handsomely for it.

guionM

I promised not to say anything about the ATSv, so I ommited it.

But I think I can say you'll certainly like it.

I also think the word "Brutal" kinda fits.


As a sidenote, I also feel that certain weight concious people who see a 3200 pound car but ignore that it's a 4 cylinder engine and have that dream that you can load it up with every performance item in the book and it's still gonna weigh 3200 pounds is about to have their bubble burst.........badly.

The regular 4 cylinder ATS weighs only a little less than a base BMW 3 series, at about 3200 pounds.

A V8 powered M3 version of that same 3200 pound 3 series weighs 3700 pounds...

.... and it's identical in size to a Chevy Cruze (a 3100 pound car).

Just sayin.

96_Camaro_B4C

The base 3 Series coupe (still the old body style) is the 328i with a naturally aspirated 3.0L inline 6, which makes less power and torque than the new style 328i sedan's turbo 2.0L. BMW lists its curb weight at 3360 lbs. This is the same as the new-style sedan with the turbo 4. The M3 coupe with its 414 hp / 295 lbft V8 does weigh 3700 lbs, for a gain of 340 lbs. Not quite 500 lbs. (The larger 528i to M5 transformation, spanning 240 to 560+ hp and lots more standard goodies, does cause a jump of ~540 lbs.)

Anyway, I don't think anyone is expecting a 3200 lb ATS-V (or Camaro), especially since the base 4 cylinder car is already heavier than that (more like 33xx lbs, IIRC). But it should have no trouble whatsoever being in the 3500-36xx lb range, depending on how big they go on the engine rating. I'd guess that somewhere around 450 to maybe 475 hp is a good estimate, but that's pure speculation. They won't want it to step on the CTS-V's toes, and the CTS-V will stay big on power to stay in the M5 ballpark.

If the styling / marketing guys can be kept at bay so the engineers can stay focused on weight (as apparently has happened with the regular ATS so far), I'm sure the ATS-V will be a solid effort. It's a smaller car, so hopefully it can go without blingy 20" wheels and 15" rotors. The first gen CTS-V had ~14" rotors and 18" wheels and looked sexy as hell. The ATS is smaller and lighter yet.

Compared to a 3860 lb Camaro SS or V6 CTS, not to mention a 4100 lb ZL1 or 4220 lb CTS-V, something in the 3500-3600 lb ballpark would be a welcome improvement. Lighter than that would kick even more *** (and I believe it could be done if the same attention to detail is paid to the V-series as was afforded the "regular" ATS). Will it weigh the same as a base 4 cylinder? Of course not.

HAZ-Matt

I think the notion that young enthusiasts look down on V8's is not true. Perhaps some of the "import" crowd feels that way, but that isn't the case for any of the young people that like domestics or more classic vehicles.

And the fact that Formula D is basically all NA V8's now, mostly LS based, has to help a little.

jg95z28

I think you guys missed the hidden winkie in Guy's post.

I read that as the V8 powered ATS-V is going to weigh in at about 3700 lbs. That means we can assume a V8 Chevrolet coupe based on Alpha would weight about the same. If its going to be similar in size to the Chevy Cruze, personally I'd take the extra 100 lbs and leave the Camaro on Zeta.

guionM

I would imagine a V8 Camaro would weight about the same as a BMW M3 if it were based on something the same size. I imagine a Alpha based Camaro selling at 25 grand wouldn't have as much expensive titanium and aluminum as a $60K+ M3, so my guess is that if a Camaro weighed less, it would be just barely.

No such thing as worrying about stepping on toes at Cadillac. They are targeting BMW, so if an ATS outstrips a same model CTS, then it isn't an issue. (but for the record, no, you aren't likely to see a 556hp, supercharged, CTSv engine in an ATS... but the ATS isn't going to have CTSv's 4,250 pounds curb weight either).

Speaking of weights, I wouldn't marry myself to that 3500-3600 pound range.

Here's why.

* The ATS with a 6 cylinder is about 100 pounds more than the 3 series with a 6 (328i is 3360, the ATS 3.6 is 3461....already knocking on your 3500 pound door). Again, the V8 powered M3 is 3700 pounds.

* The current LS3 engine and drivetrain weighs about 200 pounds over the 3.6 V6's . I'd imagine an engine like that with DI would be the same or a few pounds more.

* The ATS's brakes were set up for a 3200 pound car. A V8 powered Camaro would need something a bit sturdier and bigger...say Brembos, which would add (best guesstimate) 30-40 pounds.

* GM's automatic transmission is roughly 45 pounds heavier than a manual (BMW's is 62 pounds heavier than their manual, but has an extra gear over the current GM tranny behind the LS3).

I think if you do the math, (without revealing anything) my point is getting across pretty clearly.... perhaps, even too clear.


As I mentioned before... some of the other people who thought the Alpa chassis was going to reinvent the the cosmic laws of the universe and throw the fact that more power=more weight right into the shredder is going to have a huge bucket of cold water reality thrown on them.

Get ready for the old "Engineers and car makers are lazy and don't have the will" posts again.