Did the 4th Gen slowly price itself out of it's segment?
06-18-2002, 08:22 AM
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Did the 4th Gen slowly price itself out of it's segment?
I saw something the other day that a new Z28's MSRP at most dealers is in the $27,000 dollar range. Here is an example of a local dealers inventory...The first price is MSRP, the second is "supposed invoice"..Any Firebird is normally factionally more expensive, but iI didn't research them.
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 MED RED/NEUTRAL LEATHER $28,195 $26,144 6156350
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 BRIGHT RED/EBONY LEATHER $27,770 $25,802 6146202
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 SEBRING SILVER/EBONY LEAT $27,770 $25,681 6139119
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,770 $25,802 6147700
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,795 $25,703 6142511
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,795 $25,850 6156178
Now I remember seeing that in 1993 when the car came out there was a big deal about the price being much lower than the 3rd gen. I saw an article in car and driver that stated a 1992 Trans AM GTA cost almost $25,000 new, yet you could get a 93 Trans Am for $21,000. Initially 4th gen sales were very strong, however I am willing to bet that if you did a chart you would see a price correlation. The 3rd Gen may have been expensive in top form(IE GTA), but you had many much lower priced V8 options that would allow you to not have to stoop to a V6. Knowing what I do now and listening to all the crap I get I would not have gotten a V6 given the chance again. I think that the price of anew Z28 turns off alot of younger buyers who really can afford it and the insurence. That combined with most young males not wanting a "underpowed" V6 leads me to think that not having a price and performance middle ground has really hurt the F-body. From talking to friends (i am 21) I can say whole heartedly that my generation wants T/A's and Z28's, but tehy cost way too much. That is why they end up buying imports and Mustangs (which have a price advantage). The WS6 TA is quite simply idolized by all my friends yest no average person under 26 can afford a $35,000 dollar car. Even a $25,000 one is a streach. I dunno, justs ome random thoughts...what do you all think?
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2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 MED RED/NEUTRAL LEATHER $28,195 $26,144 6156350
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 BRIGHT RED/EBONY LEATHER $27,770 $25,802 6146202
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 SEBRING SILVER/EBONY LEAT $27,770 $25,681 6139119
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,770 $25,802 6147700
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,795 $25,703 6142511
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,795 $25,850 6156178
Now I remember seeing that in 1993 when the car came out there was a big deal about the price being much lower than the 3rd gen. I saw an article in car and driver that stated a 1992 Trans AM GTA cost almost $25,000 new, yet you could get a 93 Trans Am for $21,000. Initially 4th gen sales were very strong, however I am willing to bet that if you did a chart you would see a price correlation. The 3rd Gen may have been expensive in top form(IE GTA), but you had many much lower priced V8 options that would allow you to not have to stoop to a V6. Knowing what I do now and listening to all the crap I get I would not have gotten a V6 given the chance again. I think that the price of anew Z28 turns off alot of younger buyers who really can afford it and the insurence. That combined with most young males not wanting a "underpowed" V6 leads me to think that not having a price and performance middle ground has really hurt the F-body. From talking to friends (i am 21) I can say whole heartedly that my generation wants T/A's and Z28's, but tehy cost way too much. That is why they end up buying imports and Mustangs (which have a price advantage). The WS6 TA is quite simply idolized by all my friends yest no average person under 26 can afford a $35,000 dollar car. Even a $25,000 one is a streach. I dunno, justs ome random thoughts...what do you all think?
------------------
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06-18-2002, 08:32 AM
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I bet most of theose Z28's were loaded... and if so, there are a few things to consider...
1) T-Tops are a $1000 option, that can't be had anywhere else...
2) More Horsepower is standard.
3) An automatic Transmission is Standard.
4) ABS is standard.
If you build out a Mustang GT and a Camaro Z28 on the websites, and equip them as identically as you can (ie. no T-Tops, no Sport Appearance Package, both with Auto Transmission) they are almost even in price, and you get more with the Z28, IMHO.
1) T-Tops are a $1000 option, that can't be had anywhere else...
2) More Horsepower is standard.
3) An automatic Transmission is Standard.
4) ABS is standard.
If you build out a Mustang GT and a Camaro Z28 on the websites, and equip them as identically as you can (ie. no T-Tops, no Sport Appearance Package, both with Auto Transmission) they are almost even in price, and you get more with the Z28, IMHO.
06-18-2002, 08:45 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
I bet most of theose Z28's were loaded... and if so, there are a few things to consider...
1) T-Tops are a $1000 option, that can't be had anywhere else...
2) More Horsepower is standard.
3) An automatic Transmission is Standard.
4) ABS is standard.
If you build out a Mustang GT and a Camaro Z28 on the websites, and equip them as identically as you can (ie. no T-Tops, no Sport Appearance Package, both with Auto Transmission) they are almost even in price, and you get more with the Z28, IMHO.</font>
I bet most of theose Z28's were loaded... and if so, there are a few things to consider...
1) T-Tops are a $1000 option, that can't be had anywhere else...
2) More Horsepower is standard.
3) An automatic Transmission is Standard.
4) ABS is standard.
If you build out a Mustang GT and a Camaro Z28 on the websites, and equip them as identically as you can (ie. no T-Tops, no Sport Appearance Package, both with Auto Transmission) they are almost even in price, and you get more with the Z28, IMHO.</font>
Everything costs more here
I haven't found a new Z28 under $26,000 yet. Aren't T-tops standard on the Trans Am and Z28 now?? Also it would be really easy to buy a Mustang with no T-tops and sport appearence package (not available), But few Z28 buyers could live with at the evry least not having T-tops.------------------
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06-18-2002, 11:36 AM
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Here in Texas they have 35th SS for $28k. Z28s can be had for under 25k too.
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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash
06-18-2002, 11:39 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
[B
Now I remember seeing that in 1993 when the car came out there was a big deal about the price being much lower than the 3rd gen. I saw an article in car and driver that stated a 1992 Trans AM GTA cost almost $25,000 new, yet you could get a 93 Trans Am for $21,000.
[/B]</font>
[B
Now I remember seeing that in 1993 when the car came out there was a big deal about the price being much lower than the 3rd gen. I saw an article in car and driver that stated a 1992 Trans AM GTA cost almost $25,000 new, yet you could get a 93 Trans Am for $21,000.
[/B]</font>
A GTA would have been a couple thousand more maybe?
06-18-2002, 11:47 AM
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93s did not cost less than 92s. The price was very close though.
GTAs were the most expensive F-Bodies next to the anniversary edition Turbo V6 Trans Ams which in it's day caused not sticker shock, but cardiac arrest.
Z28s actually rose very little in price during the 90s. I remember base Z28s starting at $18,000 base in 1993, and today they start at $23,000. This is over a 10 year period, so with inflation, you could actually say the price of Z28 has come DOWN over the past 10 years.
Even with dealer markups (don't feel bad, they jack up the price here in San Diego too), realizing the average new car is pushing $30,000, Z28s are still a steal.
Mustangs run the same price as Camaro to within a couple of hundred dollars (Mustang's V6 is cheapest while Z28 is cheaper than GT, both marginally), yet Mustangs are more expensive to insure (insurence is based on vehicle claims, so a carline that appeals to more youth typically has higher claims, which Mustang seems to).
The problem with Camaro is a collapse of the sports coupe market (GM's F-Bodies, as poor as they sell, are still the 2nd best selling cars in that class) exasperated by a design thats been out for 10 years and no advertising, not price.
GTAs were the most expensive F-Bodies next to the anniversary edition Turbo V6 Trans Ams which in it's day caused not sticker shock, but cardiac arrest.
Z28s actually rose very little in price during the 90s. I remember base Z28s starting at $18,000 base in 1993, and today they start at $23,000. This is over a 10 year period, so with inflation, you could actually say the price of Z28 has come DOWN over the past 10 years.
Even with dealer markups (don't feel bad, they jack up the price here in San Diego too), realizing the average new car is pushing $30,000, Z28s are still a steal.
Mustangs run the same price as Camaro to within a couple of hundred dollars (Mustang's V6 is cheapest while Z28 is cheaper than GT, both marginally), yet Mustangs are more expensive to insure (insurence is based on vehicle claims, so a carline that appeals to more youth typically has higher claims, which Mustang seems to).
The problem with Camaro is a collapse of the sports coupe market (GM's F-Bodies, as poor as they sell, are still the 2nd best selling cars in that class) exasperated by a design thats been out for 10 years and no advertising, not price.
06-18-2002, 12:02 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
Everything costs more here I haven't found a new Z28 under $26,000 yet. Aren't T-tops standard on the Trans Am and Z28 now?? Also it would be really easy to buy a Mustang with no T-tops and sport appearence package (not available), But few Z28 buyers could live with at the evry least not having T-tops.
</font>
Everything costs more here
I haven't found a new Z28 under $26,000 yet. Aren't T-tops standard on the Trans Am and Z28 now?? Also it would be really easy to buy a Mustang with no T-tops and sport appearence package (not available), But few Z28 buyers could live with at the evry least not having T-tops.</font>
06-18-2002, 03:59 PM
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I agree completely with formula79. The top models prices and pretty much no choices definetly helped in putting it out of the market.
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 18, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 18, 2002).]
06-18-2002, 04:36 PM
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Yes they priced themselves right out of the market. It has nothing to do with a $23K MSRP base for the Z28. TRY and find one on a lot for that price. Now, go and try to find a 23-24K Mustang GT and you'll have no problem. Why? Well, dealers make more money on the loaded cars, so they order those - and camaro's have lots of options, like T-Tops, SS, etc that can add thousands of dollars to the sticker. Oh, sure, automatics are standard, but if you want a stick, you don't save any money either.
That, compounded by the fact that the SS has completely and utterly devalued the Z28 to the point that no one even wants or cares about such a plain looking car...
....and you have nothing on the lots except for expensive models and V6's.... and the "Bang for the Buck" crowd going elsewhere.
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If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.
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2000 Jetta M5
That, compounded by the fact that the SS has completely and utterly devalued the Z28 to the point that no one even wants or cares about such a plain looking car...
....and you have nothing on the lots except for expensive models and V6's.... and the "Bang for the Buck" crowd going elsewhere.
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If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.
2001 Mustang Bullitt GT
2000 Jetta M5
06-18-2002, 04:40 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Even with dealer markups (don't feel bad, they jack up the price here in San Diego too), realizing the average new car is pushing $30,000, Z28s are still a steal.</font>
Even with dealer markups (don't feel bad, they jack up the price here in San Diego too), realizing the average new car is pushing $30,000, Z28s are still a steal.</font>
Celica GT-S
Impreza WRX
Tiburon GT
Volkswagen GTI
RSX Type-S
Eclipse GT
Sentra SE-R SpecV
Mustang GT
And sure, a nearly base Z28 can be had for under $25k, but how often do you see these on dealer lots? The majority of cars listed come with more content at $23k than available on a $27k+ Camaro.
So to answer the question posed, yes I do think GM has alienated buyers with price. If you're going to push the same car year after year, you better find some reason for your loyal customers to come back for another helping. With no other performance offering even in the same ballpark (I'll overlook the Cavalier Z24
), is it any surprise were they find themselves?---------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE
[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 18, 2002).]
06-18-2002, 05:33 PM
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Pretty much all I am saying is I have loads of freinds that want an F-body, expecially the T/A. It is a cult car for my generation! The problem is no one can afford the $36K a WS6 costs. Hell you can't even get a Formula here for under $26K. You find me a Z28 on a dealers lot for the $23,000 MSRP Chevys website says and I will publicly state I am wrong. Personally I wouldn't want that $23K Z28 anyway..F-bodies are baron enough..take the T-tops and other stuff and an Echo would have more features. It wasn't like that in the 3rd Gen when there were like 5 different axle ratio's and a line up of 4,6,8 cylinder engines. You all may not have liked cars like the Berlinette, but they sold...and to younger buyers. What do you have now? A $19-$21K V6 model that has decent performance, but whats the point when you can get a similar performing, more comfortable Mustang for a few thousand less (They sell for between $16K and $18K here). Or you buy a $25K+ V8 model that is as fast as a Corevette, but also has the high insurence that comes with it. That leaves a lot of Gray area between a V6 and a V8 GM could work. If GM wants to sell 100,000 cars like I have been told, I won't survive with a base price over $30K.
BTW-All my friends who want F-bodies but can afford new ones buy them used. They depriciate by half in 2-3 years and there is a crapload of them on the market.
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BTW-All my friends who want F-bodies but can afford new ones buy them used. They depriciate by half in 2-3 years and there is a crapload of them on the market.
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06-19-2002, 10:42 AM
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You have to factor in 10 years of inflation though guys.
But even assuming 1.5% inflation over 10 years a $21,000 car in 1993 comes out to only $24,371 in 2002 dollars.
Its the basics of economics that price effects demand. There's no question in my mind that if the F-bodies were even 10% cheaper they would still be around after this year. Maybe GM priced them as low as they could, but WS6s are going for up to $35K the last couple of years. As much as I love these cars, they aren't worth $35,000.
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But even assuming 1.5% inflation over 10 years a $21,000 car in 1993 comes out to only $24,371 in 2002 dollars.
Its the basics of economics that price effects demand. There's no question in my mind that if the F-bodies were even 10% cheaper they would still be around after this year. Maybe GM priced them as low as they could, but WS6s are going for up to $35K the last couple of years. As much as I love these cars, they aren't worth $35,000.
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06-19-2002, 11:56 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GN1270:
35k for a WS6?? maybe a convertible. My sticker with everything but CD changer was 32,100 and i paid 29 and change.
</font>
35k for a WS6?? maybe a convertible. My sticker with everything but CD changer was 32,100 and i paid 29 and change.
</font>
that's still a bit high IMO. Don't underestimate the number of people who are turned off by the sticker price...even if they wouldn't have paid that much in the end.
06-19-2002, 12:45 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6:
that's still a bit high IMO. Don't underestimate the number of people who are turned off by the sticker price...even if they wouldn't have paid that much in the end.</font>
that's still a bit high IMO. Don't underestimate the number of people who are turned off by the sticker price...even if they wouldn't have paid that much in the end.</font>