Best Oil Change

Where is the best place to get your oil changed? Jiffy Lube? Valvoline instant oil change? Or a dealorship? I have gone to valvoline most of the time, and that costs me about $40-45 a change. I have gone to jiffy lube once and it cost around $25 I think, I can't rememeber but it was alot cheaper, so why is Valvoline more expensive? Thanks!

Jason

My driveway.
Cost about 8 bucks.

Dispose the oil at AutoZone or O'Reiley's Free Of Charge
...don't just dump it.

Just curious, you didn't mention changing your own oil as an option. Is this something you don't want to do? Or feel you can't do? I usually change my own oil on all of my vechicles (except my wife's car, she likes the dealer). Just curious.

Even the initial cost to change your own oil is relatively cheap. I believe a set of (idestuctible) Rhino Ramps are about $19.95. A 15 quart oil drain pan is about $5.99. And to top it off, if you want to get fancy and less mess, go with a Fram Sure Drain kit. That's another 5 to 8 bucks.

Total for less than one oil change at a service shop you can afford everything you need to do your own. And each time after that is only about 8 to 10 dollars.

So about 2 or 3 times, you're already saving money.

Don't forget a roll of Scott's Shop Towels. There like 1.99 for the 100-roll.

I change my own oil...comfort of knowing it is done right and saves $$$ too. The initial investment shouldn't be more than $40 and that is being generous. Figure:

$10 - jack stands
$2 - 7 quart oil pan
$3 - Oil Funnel
$20 - Ramps or garage jack
$5 - Oil Filter remover

That is the initial cost. Figure in $15-20 for oil and filter, higher or lower depending on brand and quality of the two you go with.

If you are unsure of how to do it, pick up a copy of Haynes or Chilton repair manual. If you don't feel like buying it, you can try your local library or bum around at a book store and read it.

I personally would wait on the Sure Drain...I'm watching it closely to see if people who use it develop any problems with leakage. I also don't like the oil change monkeys getting in my car afterwards and revving it.

Just read the original post...$45?!?!?! :eek:

I seriously hope that is for synthetic and even then that is expensive for VALVOLINE. Only $45 oil change I would pay for would be for RedLine with a K&N oil filter.

If I remember correctly, JiffyLube was using QuakerState oil. Valvoline would use, well...Valvoline. Figure they also were using cheap Fram-esque filters as well. So for 5 quarts ($1 quart) and a $3-4 filter, you paid double the material cost. For labor? HA...do it yourself. If you use conventional oil, stick with Pennzoil or Chevron...I have the #s on them if you are interested.

Originally posted by ImportKILLER

$10 - jack stands
$2 - 7 quart oil pan
$3 - Oil Funnel
$20 - Ramps or garage jack
$5 - Oil Filter remover

I personally would wait on the Sure Drain...I'm watching it closely to see if people who use it develop any problems with leakage. I also don't like the oil change monkeys getting in my car afterwards and revving it.

If ya got ramps, ya don't even need jack stands or a hydraulic jack. And I'd spend more than 10 bucks on what will later save your life.
But a small oil pan, and funnel. Should be all your need. I have an oil filter wrench, but on the 3.8L because of its position, I've never had a problem getting it off my hand, and I crank down on mine. But I use Fram Sure Grip filters.

As for the sure drain, I'll keep you abreast of how mine is doing. I've had it installed for about 3,000 miles now. No drips. Actually, once the unit is in, it comes with a block off cap, not for drips, but to keep road grime out. It's pretty nice. And don't let the exhausts' Y-pipe defeat you, the sure drain will go in, just gotta work it a little bit. (Once in, you never need mess with it again)

Since all oil is about the same, with the exception to high performance oils (not bought off the shelf) I just use Pennzoil, which is a subsidary of Quaker State.
Wal-mart sells a 5-quart oil jug for about 6 bucks. And I believe it comes out to be about 1.08 per quart - still cheaper than running cheap coastal or AutoZone brand. And its in a one-time handy-dandy jug with a cool little "Next Oil Change" sticker...FREE :rolleyes:

I also change at 5,000 miles to keep costs down. You can go up to 7,000 miles safely, but I figure with running the engine hard and racing I'll split it between 3,000 and 7,000 = 5,000.

I'm on my 25th oil change :D

Originally posted by Bliggida
My driveway.
Cost about 8 bucks. $8? Are you putting Vegatable oil in your car? :p

I pay around $30 to do it myself: 5 qts of Mobil 1 5W-30 @ 4.87/qt, then $5 for the AC Delco oil filter. I could pay $5 more if I bought the K&N, total to $35.

Then again, my next oil change will be cheap!....Grandpa bought me a case of Mobil 1 for Christmas, and I had a $4.20 credit at a local speed shop.

Next oil change will cost me $0.80 :D

4.87 a quart. Highway robbery.
I pay about 1.25 to 1.85 on average - for Pennzoil.

Redline racing oil is 7.95 a quart!!!

Filter Prices
From AutoZone...
STP S3387A $2.99
BOSCH 3331 $5.49
MOBIL M1-101 $11.99
FRAM PH3387A $3.29
AC-DELCO PF47 $2.99
K&N HP-1001 $12.99

Oil Drain Plug:
Fram - Sure Drain PN: SD4 $12.99

$4.87 is about average for Mobil 1 here...I believe it might be a few cents off, give or take. I stopped using it back when it was TriSyn, but now its the new SuperSyn so I might take a look into it. So far I've heard that SuperSyn is far superior to the older SJ TriSyn.

Yup, I made a mistake. If you use ramps, no need for jackstands. I don't use a ramp so I use a jack and jackstands. I got my jackstands for around $10 at Rice...errr, PepBoys that work fine. Weight rating is more than the car plus I use a garage jack too so. I tried to look into Rhino Ramps but they were $50 here!

Actually you'd be surprised how different oils are. Some have different base stocks, additive packages and some shear down more than others. Only real way to know is through oil analysis. I spend most of my wandering 'net time on oil sites. It's interesting to see an oil like Pennzoil ($2) produce better #'s than a synthetic like Syntech ($4).

If you knew what I knew about Fram, you'd stay away from them. High availability doesn't nec. mean high quality. I'll email you a website that you can read up on them about. I like cheap filters too...Walmart Supertech filters are probably the best value you'll find. Produced by the same company that manufactures the Mobil 1 filters (Champion). For the price, Mobil 1s aren't too hot. I used to use them too...too pricey, too restrictive. A 10-15 micron filter with conventional oil = tons of sludge catching.


OK...I typed too much. Back to the topic...:) Change your own oil! You'll save $$$.

Why do you think Fram shouldn't be used.

Fram uses cardboard ends instead of steel...which isn't good.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000489

Cut open a Fram and compare it to just about any other filter out there and I'll bet that will change your mind alone.

Let us know how the Sure Drain turns out...seems interesting.

:)

A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil filter. These disks hold the glue which keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media interface is also one of the sealing surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that only metal end disks can adequately seal and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram filters are criticized for having cardboard end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive, regardless of the material of the end disk. What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the thoroughness with which it can be applied to the disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter engineers are able to specify adhesives with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk (intuitively, it is easy to make a strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able to withstand the hot oil environment, so too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot oil. The thickness and strength of the adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably.
I've ran Fram Filters all of my raced and ragged 125,000 miles. Never had any engine work done. If Fram Filters are causing any type of above average wear...I'm not seeing it.

If you read, cardboard is not the issue, it's the glue. and they've never leaked on me, or blown off.

Eh...of course thats what Fram says. Can't expect them to come out and say "Well...we use cardboard since its more cost effective".

After reading so many stories about Fram on websites and message boards plus seeing the build quality first hand compared to other brands...I'd rather spend the extra $$$ on a better quality filter. Or even less $$$ on a Supertech. But to each his own...

Glad to hear you haven't had any problems. Have you used Pennzoil all 125,000 miles? I'd be interested to see the engine internals with Pennzoil...probably looks pretty good.

Well Thanks for all the imput, i have a few more questions. Right now I understand I should buy 5 quarts of oil. So what type do I buy, right now i have regular oil, what about synthetic, should I switch, what is the advantage/disadvantage of each? What do the differents weights mean, like the 5W-30 or 10W-50? Which one would work on my 3.8L camaro? So there is a screw you unscrew and the oil leaks out into a bucket, then you take off the filter and change it, then you put the screw back on and fill up the tank with new oil, is that right?

What about anti-freez? I think some leaked when I did my spark plugs, the green fluid. Should I just pour some more into the tank. I couldent have lost but a cup of it so will it hurt anything?

Thanks again guys! Your a lifesaver.
Jason

well it seems you dont know that much so nows the time to start

i would go with 5w-30 (or 10w-30 in the summer) and synthetic is better for wear and frition but cost more that is the only disadvantage

filter anything but fram

jack up the car use jack stands!! even with ramps use the stands and parking brake!!! and chuck the wheels!!

pop hood pull out dipstick so it sticks way up (you do this so you dont forget about closing your hood without adding oil)

get under car look at the black oil pan bottem of engine theres one bolt at the bottem thats the plug undoit watchout it may splash

then after that is done use the oilfilter wrench to do the filter not hard just dont overtighten(tough hand tight is good) use new oil on the seal before you put it on so the seal dont bind

then add 4 quarts of oil lower your car let it run for about 30 secs make sure you have oil pressure then shut it off check your oil

should need another .5 of a court


dont understand the antifreeze while changing your plugs but however to fill it just take off the radiator cap and top it off close it run the car for a bit let it cool then recheck it

How many miles do you have on your engine? If you have a lot of miles, I wouldn't suggest switching to synthetic since you will likely see a leak. Synthetic has a way of finding leaks that dino oil doesn't.

Different and Dangerous are not one and the same. Fram is different. Doesn't make it dangerous.

When Ford swapped to dual overhead cams everyone thought Ford flipped their gord...different.

When the Pinto had the gas tank in the back it was dangerous. Not different.

Not here to promote Fram. But a posted e-mail reply (which completely addresses the alleged problem) from another forum is hardly credible evidence.

Then look at my case. Doubt you can say I am lucky.

Originally posted by Bliggida
If ya got ramps, ya don't even need jack stands or a hydraulic jack. And I'd spend more than 10 bucks on what will later save your life.
. But I use Fram Sure Grip filters.

You can always use a jackstand for safety. You can use it for rotating tires. You can use it to jack up the WHOLE car, all four wheels hanging. Ramps only offer ONE height. Just because a Jackstand doesn't cost $50 doesn't mean it is unsafe or will cost your life. It's a simple design, therefor "only" cost about $10 and it's smaller and more portable.

Fram is junk like IMPORT KILLER stated. Not only was there a thread he linked you to showing that, there was an actual test done on oil filters by some guy using it on his Chrysler car. I lost the link, but it was from a couple of years ago where he tested 10-15 filters. Fram was one of the ones at the bottom. Fram used to be good. Then they decided to up the profit margin and buy their filter from someone else and just change the look of the outside. Several other filters(again, forgot the names) out there have the EXACT same filter that Fram is selling, just under a differing "Look". Another thing discovered during this test was that Fram offered very little Filter element coverage. AC Delco, as I recall was among the best of them. AC Delco has almost TWICE the amont of Filtering element as Fram. It also offered superior construction.


Since all oil is about the same, with the exception to high performance oils (not bought off the shelf) I just use Pennzoil, which is a subsidary of Quaker State.
Wal-mart sells a 5-quart oil jug for about 6 bucks. And I believe it comes out to be about 1.08 per quart - still cheaper than running cheap coastal or AutoZone brand. And its in a one-time handy-dandy jug with a cool little "Next Oil Change" sticker...FREE :rolleyes:

I also change at 5,000 miles to keep costs down. You can go up to 7,000 miles safely, but I figure with running the engine hard and racing I'll split it between 3,000 and 7,000 = 5,000.

I'm on my 25th oil change :D

All oil is NOT the same. Here is a COPY and PASTED thread from a while back:


"The standarized tests that most oil companies use (whether or not they advertise it) seem to be the ASTM D-2670 FALEX (which indicate wear, lower number are better) and ASTM D-4742 TFOUT (oxidation resistance, higher numbers are better). I don't know why they chose those two tests, but all the test data I get lists those numbers. I know years ago they used to use a "three ball" test, but it has since been phased out.

The Falex (pin & vee block) wear test, a rotating steel pin is compressed between two steel blocks with a V shaped grove in each. The test specimens are immersed in the test oil. The blocks are loaded against the pin with a force of 350 lbs for a five minute break-in period. After the break-in period the load on the rotating pin is increased to 600 lbs. The load is maintained at this level for 15 minutes. At this point, the wear on the pin and blocks is evaluated by counting the number of "teeth" on the wheel used to apply the load. A wear depth of 0.001 inch corresponds to 14.410 teeth on the loading wheel. The test is started at ambient temperature and the sample oil temperature increases from frictional heating. This is somewhat like "Cold engine start," which produces the highest engine wear rates. There are two ways to Fail the test, 1.if the pin and vee blocks sieze and shear the chuck pin that is a fail. 2.if the wear is so much that the automatic loading gear cannot keep up with the wear and keep it at the 600 lbs run load, then that is also a fail.

Like I said before, Mobil 1 is hard to beat, and it's available almost everywhere. Without trying to stir up trouble in this post, M1 beat the "exoctics" (I won't name names) that cost considerably more. M1 even beats LE in the TFOUT test -- although I'd rather give up some oxidation resistance for lower wear numbers. Since I'm talking mostly about M1 and LE, here are the numbers for the two (W=wear, lower numbers are better; O.R.=oxidation resistance, higher numbers are better):"

LE 8530 - W(6) O.R.(481)
Mobil-1 - W(12) O.R.(509)

Again, I don't want to get people upset about oils, but it's hard to see how good those two are without some comparitive numbers:

Castrol GTX - W(fail) O.R.(121)
Havoline Formula 3 - W(14) O.R.(193)
Honda - W(14) O.R.(323)
Mobil - W(16) O.R.(218)
Mopar - W(19) O.R.(237)
Motorcraft - W(fail) O.R.(207)
GM Goodwrench - W(16) O.R.(221)
Pennzoil - W(fail) O.R.(231)
Quaker State - W(11) O.R.(157)
Total Quartz 5000 - W(17) O.R.(219)
Toyota - W(14) O.R.(222)
Phillips 66 Tropartic - W(17) O.R.(153)
Valvoline All Climate - W(17) O.R.(247)
Valvoline Durablend - W(fail) O.R.(166)
Edit: Forgot to mention that all tests were on 5w-30.


Look at your lovely Pennzoil. $1.08 per quart?? If you wait every month for a sale at Kragen, it's ~70¢ a quart for Havoline.

Royal Purple Synthetic was another brand that's pretty popular with some people. They even put it in there trannies and diffs. The reason being that it actually has dynoed proven HP gains. But, the catch is, the oil breaks down FAST. I read somewhere around 1000 miles only.

JtJ2000: I recommend you use 10W-30, as STATED in your owner's manual. These numbers are simply the temperature range you expect your car to be driven in. 5W can go somewhere around as low as -40°, I think cuz I don't recall the exact #. and 10W can go to as low as around 0°. Again, this is an approximate. And 30, can go up to around the low 100° range, again I don't recall the exact #. You can use 5W-30, its no big deal, but if you have a slight leak, it will leak more with 5W-30. I speak from my rear main leak experience.

5W is thinner than 10W, so it's easier for you to start your car if you're in freezing weather. But as the oil heats up, it gets thicker, that's where the "30" in 10W-30 comes in. If it's 40 the oil can get even thicker.

I never said different and dangerous were the same...I don't even know where that came from. I am simply stating my opinion that I wouldn't use Fram filters for the fact that they use cardboard ends where other filters use steel and on my first hand experiance cutting open Fram filters and comparing them with various other brands. In my opinion, the build quality wasn't as good. As I said in my other post, to each his/her own. If you have had good results with Fram on 7,000 mile intervals, good for you.

I posted the link to give a general feeling of how Fram filters are thought of on that particular board but I wouldn't offer people's personal opinions as evidence. As proven here, different opinions for different people. I really don't trust what other people say until I can go out and see for myself, just as I wouldn't trust Fram's response or any other company responding about their products.

There...I'm done. :) OK..so my revised answer to the original question: Do the oil change yourself, get whatever type oil and filter you want and see how they work out. jtj2000, you've got mail!

EDIT: Oh...Havoline! Just reminded me! If you live near a Target, they have both Chevron Supreme and Havoline (which on the back of the bottle says "Product of ChevronTexaco" and have near exact #s) for .68 cents! I don't know if they would still have any since they went on clearance nationwide about two weeks ago. I cleaned out the local Targets in my area. :D

Originally posted by ImportKILLER
How many miles do you have on your engine? If you have a lot of miles, I wouldn't suggest switching to synthetic since you will likely see a leak. Synthetic has a way of finding leaks that dino oil doesn't.

True dat. And, of course, it's a 96 so it's gotta have wear on it. Even if you don't drive much time has a way of aging things. And Chuck those wheels like Camaros-4-lfe said. If you jack on one corner, chuck the wheel on the opposite diagonal corner. If it's stick, put it in R along with the E-brake.

Well I think I really get how to change the oil. All I have to do now is find that screw. Is it the one that's in the center bottom of the engine, that has alot of gunk around it? One more thing, what do you mean by getting rid of the tires? Take them off so it's easier to get under? And one more thing - the brake rotors, how can you tell just by looking at them if they need to be replaced? Thanks so much!

Jason

Hey F1GT, or anyone. What is LE Oil? What brand is that?

Probably "Lubrication Engineers".

I use their tranny fluid in my truck.....GOOOOD STUFF!

Originally posted by All_InTheRED
Probably "Lubrication Engineers".


Yep

Once again...

- 125,000 raced and daily driven miles.
- Fram filter at 5,000 mile intervals
- My oil is just as clean as yours,
Now, if I've gone 125,000 miles (which is probably more than whats on your car) where is the reliability issue you're talking about???

Just because Fram uses cardboard doesn't mean its a bad filter automatically, because some other companies like to use a (just as cheap) piece of metal, yet charge you an additional 10 dollars because you believe you are getting a superior sealing ability. Which is all the cardboard (or metal) does. It has to do with sealing. Not the actual filtering. And in regards to the sealing ability of a Fram, I have never had one drip, never, once.

And, any oil you buy at XXX auto store is going to be the same. I am well aware of all the tests done, and there is an "inkling" of a difference between all of them.
Your choices are regular, synthetic, and racing oils.
The only one that is going to make a differance is a racing oil, and that you can't buy at XXX auto store.

If you don't like Fram filters fine. But don't say that they aren't safe to run, or that there is a reliability issue with them without evidence. My engine will prove you wrong.

Really...

I'd be interested to see this topic posted on that oil message board where there are a great number of people who work for various oil companies and guys who specialize in oil. I think they'd get just as good of a laugh out of the comment that "all oils are the same". Yup...all oils are the same. Run two identical engines for 100,000 miles under the same conditions...one with a cheap Car and Driver oil, a better conventional oil like Chevron and a synthetic such as Mobil 1 and I bet you'd see differences in the three engines in terms of wear. But...thats probably due to something else since oil is oil. :rolleyes: I wonder why Mobil 1 is factory fill for some of the higher end cars...

One doesn't equal the whole...just because YOU haven't had any problems, doesn't mean there haven't been any. I wonder why there is such a big crowd against Fram? I don't see such a crowd against other filters.

I'm not saying your car will die if you use a Fram, but the quality isn't the same as some of the other filters. For the average car driver, a 3,000 oil change and a Fram filter should be OK. But for those who want something better, there is better out there. For 99% of the people who drive, most don't give the oil filter a second thought. They see so much Fram around, figure it must be good. Most people don't know what kind of quality they are buying. For that, all I can say is cut them open and look. Compare the quality. Can't tell how "clean" an oil is just by looking at it...thats what oil analysis is for.

I'd be interested to see the oil analysis of your car...then we'll see just how "clean" it is.



BTW, I'm only spending $1.97 on oil filters...

Thats why my Olds 455 and the Camaro get AC Delco filters.

My truck gets a Motorcraft FL-1995 Filter (sucker holds 2 quarts in itself, out of 15quarts total). It actually costs less than the Fram crap fiter at Wal-Mart.

The Fords get Motorcraft filters...and GM get AC-Delco's....period.

U get what u pay for in everything in life.....this includes oil and filters. :)

Can't go wrong with stock...figure if they selected it to go on stock, it has to be half decent. They figure some people go extended drain intervals on them so they have to last longer than 3,000. I think the Delcos are 25-40 micron rated, aren't getting full catching sludge...ADBV but no bypass. I'll usually pick up Delcos when they go on sale...have to be careful though. There have been cases where the Delcos aren't real Delcos but imitations. Usually just cheap for the six weld spots.

CLICK ME IF YOU LIKE FRAM (http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/oil_filter_study/):think:

I use purolators, but snagged a Fram last oil change.

My car mainly had dealership oil changes up till about 100k, My car has a deal with free lifetime oil changes.

I use Valvoline Max Life.


Btw the cheapest place to buy oil is Walmart. They usually have the main brands, and have always had mobil 1

Originally posted by ImportKILLER
Really...

I'd be interested to see this topic posted on that oil message board where there are a great number of people who work for various oil companies and guys who specialize in oil. I think they'd get just as good of a laugh out of the comment that "all oils are the same". Yup...all oils are the same. Run two identical engines for 100,000 miles under the same conditions...one with a cheap Car and Driver oil, a better conventional oil like Chevron and a synthetic such as Mobil 1 and I bet you'd see differences in the three engines in terms of wear. But...thats probably due to something else since oil is oil. :rolleyes: I wonder why Mobil 1 is factory fill for some of the higher end cars...



Any oil company will tell you their oil is the best...only one of them is telling the truth. Majority doesn't always mean the better. Why do more factory's use Mobil 1? is it because its better, or because Mobil 1 shelled out millions upon millions of dollars to have factories sign off on it, so that people like you will think its the best thing since individually wrapped cheese slices.

Many years ago there was a big drive on running Teflon in the engine. People saw what teflon did to frying pans and assume that it must be great in the engine. Completely ignoring the fact that Teflon contained PTFE, a solid. People were putting solids into their engines thinking its a good idea. And unfortunately you couldn't convince them it wasn't. When it comes to on the shelf brands. When you compare alike oils. Synthetic for synthetic. All oils are the same. If you run high dollar XXX and I run the AutoZone cheap stuff of the same type. Are you going to pull ahead of me? Are you going to see any better gas mileage? Is your engine neccesarily going to last longer or incure less wear? NO, not outright.
It's not so much the oil you use thats important as much as the maintanence put into it is.

Now am I advocating that it doesn't matter, you can run syrup if you wish - no. Bare in mind, there is a degree of relativity here. I have been building engines for years. I've seen all the reports, and I tell people the same thing. Just stick with a name brand you like. But more importantly simply keep tabs on the mileage with regular intervals. We aren't talking about products such as Red Line, Royal Purple, AmSoil, or Lucas. And along those lines, the reverse is true that I am not talking about nor recommend Coastal, Car & Driver, etc oils.

Regardless of what (name brand) oil you use, which brand you use is not as important as a regular service intervals. And in that respect its true - oil is oil.

I'm no spokesman for Fram, and I don't really feel they are the best company out there. I use them because of cost, and the fact that they get the job done. Fram isn't the only filter I have used exclusively, I've used (at one point or another) them all. Granted you can't see everything in the oil, but an inspection can in fact tell you quite a bit of information. An oil analysis test will show you the minute differences between oils. And they are just that - minute. What makes an engine last is not how much you spend at the Auto Store. What makes an engine last is how often you maintain it. It is this reason, and not the oil (or filter) I use why my car runs as good as it does despite the mileage its wracked up.

my mom worked for champiom laboratories in Albion IL for like 10 or 11 years. i asked her about their filters and this is what she told me. (she made them) they are tested every 2 hours for the seal between the metal disk and the filter element. they test them by holding one end of the disk in a vice and pulling on the other end of the disk with a pair of vice-grips. the filter element and the inner core will bend/break before the seal does. this test is a little more complicated, but thats the main part of it. there are alot of other tests too. if you can pull on cardboard disks (like in this test) and they wont break than i am convinced. I am also aware that a few years ago a lot of fram filters were recalled because of rust on the backplates, threads, etc. Champ Labs makes Bosch, AC Delco, Motorcraft, Supertech, Mobil 1, STP, alot of other brands. My mom said that the elements in Mobil 1 were the thickest, like cardboard. Then Bosch filters had the next thickest elements. The Supertech, AC Delco and Motorcraft all got the same filter elements. They were all like the next best (behind Mobil 1 and Bosch). STP and others are examples of the lower quality of filters that thye make. All Champ made filters have metal disks on the end, not cardboard. Champ Labs conducts tests on its products itself. check the back of one of the filters that they make. i dont know that much about fram but i would only buy a Champ made filter. Like I said they make filters for alot more companies, but i dont remember them. Thats my 2 cents on the issue. I will take my moms word for it, because she did make filters for a long time.

"Run two identical engines for 100,000 miles under the same conditions...one with a cheap Car and Driver oil, a better conventional oil like Chevron and a synthetic such as Mobil 1 and I bet you'd see differences in the three engines in terms of wear."

IIRC, Consumer Reports pretty much did that a few years back and found no significant difference.

"Regardless of what (name brand) oil you use, which brand you use is not as important as a regular service intervals."

Bingo.

So why do I use Mobil 1? It makes me feel good :D.

This thread won't die and will likely just keep going and going, so I'll present my "closing statement"...besides, it's spring break and I've got a plane to catch! :D

Fram isn't a bad filter in that if you put one on your car it will do horrible things. It is just that there are better filters for a little more $$$ or some that are around the same price range. I'm sure for the average driver who doesn't really give a second thought about filters, a Fram would work just fine. With that said, there are those that want the best or something better for their cars. For example, one common question that ALWAYS comes up about intakes is "K&N FIPK vs. SLP CAI, which ones is better?". Both do the same job with little difference but people still want to know which one is better. Some feel the metal in the SLP heats up the intake and choose the K&N for that reason. Does it make a difference? Who knows, but it was enough for some to choose a K&N just to know they didn't have metal heating up the intake. Just like the endcaps in Fram...does it make a huge difference? Honestly, I don't know but I'd rather not find out. Thats why I choose not to use Fram. I used to use Mobil 1s because of the construction but since I can't get them for $3 anymore, I use another Champion made filter.


As for oil, I used to use synthetic when I could get it cheap from my work. I used Mobil 1 as an example since its probably the most popular synthetic and is available pretty much anywhere. If you wish, substitute RedLine, Chevron, Castrol, whatever synthetic into where I mentioned Mobil 1. Will you see a difference between the different synthetics? Probably different #s in the tests. Will you feel/hear/see a difference? Odds are very good that you won't. When I used RedLine and Mobil 1, I didn't. Oil analysis showed similar #s thought the RedLine had so much more moly in it. So again we are here with the those that really don't care and those that want the best or something better. I prefer a oil that has lower oxidation levels and lower wear #s. Most probably don't give a crap, but I do.

Any synthetic (with the exception of Syntec) will give you better protection than a conventional oil. That is a fact. Far greater temp range of protection, lower pour points and longer drain intervals. There are differences between Synthetic A vs. Synthetic B and Conventional A vs. Conventional B. Whether or not it is a big deal, well...thats up to everyone individually.

BTW, I really do like this thread. Been a long time since there has been a good thread. Not the usual "how do I make my car go faster" or "can my 3.4 camero beat a 3.4 mustang?" :D

Later guys, the beach and some coronas are calling my name. :cool:

EDIT: I totally agree with keeping up with maintenance. Even if you use the most expensive filter with the most awesome oil you can find, if you don't change it regularly you are no better off. I go no more than 3k on conventional and 5k on synthetic. I'm sure I could go push both further but I like the peace of mind.

Those are some very good points, and well taken.

I think, in this post there is a grave differance in saying "Ya know, You can use Fram, but the reason I don't is ___ " is much more noteworthy than "Fram Bashing". Which I feel others did.

It sounds to me that those that are really educated in the matter, it's not about the cardboard at all, its about the filtering ability of the pleats. Others simply read that Fram has cardboard where other companies have metal and assume it must be weaker.
In a way, thats simillar to people always saying, "the interior of the F-body looks like cheap plastic". Well good eye inspector Clusoe...it is! Does that mean people shouldn't buy F-bodies because GM doesn't decide to cover up cheap plastic with cheap leather and charge you for it like they slayed 13 fattened baby lambs to make your steering wheel? Um, no not really. Just means we are saving money having realized that a sports car isn't about what makes up the interior. Its about making it count where it needs to: at the tracks, and on the streets.

Likewise, it seems to me that despite the fact that I will concede Fram isn't the best, its also not the worst. And just because another brand may protect 1/1000ths of a degree better. Well when you take long term test like 100,000 miles. 1/1000ths adds up to only 100 miles. Are you really saving your engine having spent all that money just to go 100 more miles, in the face of 100,000???

Your illustration of Air intake systems is indeed a relavant one. Personal preference accounts for I'm guessing nearly 50% of why people buy products. It's not always that they are better, its that, that product has been advertised or sold in a manner to "sell" that person on using it. Where it be an exhaust that make a certain sound, or an Intake that claims the most advertised horsepower. So in those respects, a lot of times, as with when I mentioned Teflon oils, you can't convince people of things which they have already set their minds to. Once people join the bandwagon of boycotting Fram, its really difficult to show them that Fram isn't this horrible monster that will steal your money and ruin your engine.

As far as conventional oils vs. synthetics I'm pretty much with you on that. Not only are synthetics better in nearly every respect (will get to that) but being synthetics very little natural resources are used in making them. Now, at the risk of sounding like a gay hippy tree hugger, because performance nuts are usually the exact opposite, removing their catalytic converters, we all need to do our part. This is just one way we can protect engines, and protect the environment.
Anyway, the only place I differ with you on, and this is only because you didn't mention it, is that when it comes to breaking in an engine, I don't like the factories using synthetics, when any engine builder will tell you, a conventional oil is the best thing you can use during break-in. After that, swap to synthetic. When and engine is brand new, there are tolerances that need to be seasoned and worked down. Without the properties found in conventional oils, you actually pre-condition your engine to wear more in its early stage. But there are other things to do when building and engine, like using Engine assembly lube and and priming your oil pump that are just as important, so take that for what its worth.

For performance, only a few oils have actually shown performance. Such as Lucas, RedLine, Royal Purple etc. But none of these you are going to get at AutoZone or Pep Boys. They are expensive fills, but they do work. I've seen a drain and fill of engine/tranny/rear end with a dyno run to show an average gain of between 5-10 horsepower, and claims of 5% more power.
Now for me, in my Z28 with it holding in excess of 9 quarts of oil. At $7.95 a quart that's almost 72 dollars, plus another 72 bucks for about 9 quarts of tranny fluid, and then 2 quarts of Gear lube and a posi additive. Thats another 16 and 5 bucks. Add it all up you are talking about 165 dollars in lubricants!!! For 10 horsepower. That's a great deal at a little over 16 bucks a horse. But I don't think I really need a 72 dollar oil change.

It's a good debate and anyone is welcome to participate, I only ask that what you have to say is intelligent and coherent. Please don't post "...Fram is @$$..." We should be better than that.

:metal: :D

I love topics like this!

Everyone "thinks" they are an engineer. Everyone thinks they have the only answer to such a trivial question.

Face it, I have my ways... you all have yours!

I use Q.S., you use Mobil.

I hate Fram, you won't stand by anything else.

Let it rest.:death: :death: :death:

Please don't post if you have nothing to say, its obvious you haven't even been reading. And for your information, I actually am an engineer.

:eek: Almost forgot... in reference to the "best oil change."

IMO... It's the one you do yourself! Nothing beats working on your own stuff, nothing!

You hold the fate of that motor, the whole car for that fact, in your hands when you're the one working on it! The good, the bad, the ugly... it's all yours! I love that sh!T. It makes you feel good when you burn the guy your racin', 'cause your the one that put all the pieces together. :D It just gives me a hard-on! :bow:

Originally posted by HPbyChevy
[B It just gives me a hard-on! :bow: [/B] should get out more. :(
Building your own engines is where its at, true. Anyone with enough money can buy something fast. That don't make you a hot-rodder.

LOL...I'm back. Only for a minute though, my friends decided to eat here at the house rather than drive to the airport early. Smart considering the additional security. :rolleyes:

Glad we agree on some things, Bliggida. I totally agree about engine break-in. I plan on getting a 2005 GT (BOO, I know. ;) ) and I plan on using the stock oil for the first few oil changes then switching to a full synthetic.

Oh yeah, I'm not an engineer but I will be in a year (likely two).

Ok, seriously...bye.

Spring break + beach + chicks = :metal:

should get out more

When your married with two kids and a hobby of cars, "getting out" isn't much of an option.

Oh yeah, I'm not an engineer but I will be in a year (likely two).

And for your information, I actually am an engineer.

Nothing worse than a "know it all" engineer! (graduating class of 1994.. bachelor in M.E. from the Univ. of IL. - man am I getting old!)

Never said I knew it all, but thanks for playing. However I do know about oil to say the least. If you actually bothered to read my posts you as a M.E. student would and should know that nothing I said was incorrect.

Even if I wasn't an engineer, I've been building race engines for many years now, such that, that alone would substantiate my opinion's on the matter, aside from the truth that most of my posts were indeed fact not opinion.

now im curious is there any good additives for maybe an older engine that somone doesnt want to change to synthetic now additives that dont contain teflon

There are some formula's that are advertised for "Higher Mileage Engines". It's half marketing, and half truth. There are some additives that you can put into the engine to help increase the seal around worn down rings. But, that only works for a relatively short window. On newer engines, you won't see worn rings at 50,000 or 70,000 miles like older engine of the 60's and into the 70's where tolerances were not as tight. On newer engines with average use, rings should last somewhere between 150,00 to 200,000 miles. But those additives work for a short window because, hey when your rings are worn down, they are making the seal they need to. More mileage means more wear. So it may help to stop smoking and burning oil for about 10,000 to 25,000 miles but eventually it'll get so bad it won't matter what you put into the engine.

Originally posted by ImportKILLER

Fram isn't a bad filter in that if you put one on your car it will do horrible things. It is just that there are better filters for a little more $$$ or some that are around the same price range. I'm sure for the average driver who doesn't really give a second thought about filters, a Fram would work just fine. With that said, there are those that want the best or something better for their cars.


Will you feel/hear/see a difference? Odds are very good that you won't. So again we are here with the those that really don't care and those that want the best or something better. I prefer a oil that has lower oxidation levels and lower wear #s. Most probably don't give a crap, but I do.

Any synthetic (with the exception of Syntec) will give you better protection than a conventional oil. That is a fact. Far greater temp range of protection, lower pour points and longer drain intervals. There are differences between Synthetic A vs. Synthetic B and Conventional A vs. Conventional B. Whether or not it is a big deal, well...thats up to everyone individually.

BTW, I really do like this thread. Been a long time since there has been a good thread. Not the usual "how do I make my car go faster" or "can my 3.4 camero beat a 3.4 mustang?" :D

Later guys, the beach and some coronas are calling my name. :cool:

EDIT: I totally agree with keeping up with maintenance. Even if you use the most expensive filter with the most awesome oil you can find, if you don't change it regularly you are no better off. I go no more than 3k on conventional and 5k on synthetic. I'm sure I could go push both further but I like the peace of mind.

Very good point.

Just like how cars have standards they need to meet or exceed(safety, pollution, etc), so do filters and oils. Some just meets it, while others EXCEEDS them.
For example: Nowadays emission standards set by the gov are getting stricter. Some cars meets the LEV standard. While others more than meets them and are labeled as ULEV. While others EXCEEDS ULEV and are labeled SULEV.

Fram and all filters have a standard they need to meet and pass.
So does oil. If you choose an oil, make sure it has an API symbol in the back of the container showing it has pass the SAE standards. Again, some exceed the standards, while others just meets them.

Think of your car as a start-up company in need of new employees. Would you hire a programmer who graduated with a BS degree with 4.0 or someone who graduated with a BS degree with a 3.0 average?? How about an MS in CS?? Yes, sometimes you pay the more qualify applicant a higher salary, like synthetic compared to coventional oil. But, sometimes you don't, like the AC Delco compared to a Fram.

I don't believe this. You idiots are fighting about a damn OIL CHANGE!!!!! Wow is all I can say. You guys need something better to do than to bicker about changing oil in your V6s. I'm blown away at this thread.

As for the ORIGINAL poster, your best bet is to learn doing it yourself. That way you will save money which can be put towards more mods, or other things in life besides your car.

Originally posted by slvrbird2000
Wow is all I can say. You guys need something better to do than to bicker about changing oil in your V6s. I'm blown away at this thread.


something better such as???

...

such as posting a reply to this thread?


This is actually an informative thread...

Once again, if you don't have anything to contribute in this discussion please don't post. It's obvious you haven't been reading. Within the last 10 posts there have been numerous amounts of information posted...for your benefit. Please respect those of us who are here to help out.

Originally posted by CamaroGirlz28
something better such as???

...

such as posting a reply to this thread?


This is actually an informative thread...

Are you blind? Look at the 2nd statement I made. Your reply helped alot.

Originally posted by Bliggida
Once again, if you don't have anything to contribute in this discussion please don't post. It's obvious you haven't been reading. Within the last 10 posts there have been numerous amounts of information posted...for your benefit. Please respect those of us who are here to help out.

See the above statement.

:rolleyes: