Update on motor - still no dice

All right guys,

First I want to thank all those who have given up so much time (as well as tools/garage space in Shaun's case) to help me with the motor.

After fixing the grounds and plug wires, the car still won't fire. The motor WILL NOT turn over by hand cranking on the hub bolt, and the starter motor nearly stalls when it tries to turn it. This is on a fully charged battery and also during a jump start on top of the battery. This is why my ground strap was getting so hot that it smoked.

We pulled all the plugs, and the motor is still very hard to turn over by hand, about as hard as my stock motor was with all the plugs in. In addition, we can hear a squeeking noise when we turn the crank by hand, not sure what that could be.

Not sure what will happen next - I need some LT1 experts to step up and show me the light :). Thank god I have another car to drive for the next week (but not after that).

the squeeking / hissing noise is normal as ur cylinders are compressing and letting go

who did ur rockers ?! if the engine is really hard to turn . i would suggest double checking the rockers... did you follow the book !? are there any loose ones !? double check those .. thats my opinion

wish i could be there to help

maybe if u havent gotten it down by tomorrow night i'll drop by again

call me up and let me know

you did put oil in it right:D

yep. here is a more detailed description of the problem:


One thing I noticed was that even with roller rockers adjusted and valve events occuring, the engine will NOT turn over by hand using the hub. I apply around 100 lb/ft to the hub bolt and she won't turn so i stop there before breaking anything. the starter motor nearly stalls even with a charged battery and a jump start boosting it.

So, we took the plugs out to remove all compression. the motor will NOT turn by hand, only with about 40-50 lb/ft of force on a torque wrench. we also hear a mild squeeking noise for about 90 degrees of a 360 degree turn of the crank.

I was under the impression that with no compression the motor should spin fairly easily using hands on the balancer?

the crank is a callies magnum and the hub is a 1-piece fluidampr. Could we have messed up putting the fluidampr on?

Finally, this motor has not been run for about 16 months.... could this cause a problem making the motor very stiff to turn over? could the starter itself affect how the motor turns by hand?

what the heck could cause a used motor to be so hard to turn over without compression? there was no rust visibly in the cylinders....

one more thing i just thought of

what if ur starter is somehow "mangled" and is holding ur flywheel !??!

maybe u should try to take out the starter then turn the motor by hand :think:

cant think of any way that a starter would "jam" itself :think: , the noid could stick i suppose and keep the starter gear on the flywheel ... its just another thing to try ...

interesting... we did hear some "interesting" noises coming from the starter....

I asked a similar question but we never checked it out since this should never happen....

I am going to try and make it out there tommorow or whenever you plan on tackling this again, just let me know and i will be there. There has yet to be a lt1 that could confuse me so trust me i will figure yours out also
Later
Mike

This is silly, but just a remark... are you SURE about your rocker ratio?

Did you buy 1.6's or 1.7's? Of course you'd know to break in a cam with 1.5's if you want to run 1.7's.

The point of this is that I have a buddy that bought 1.6's. They were stamped with the part number of a set of 1.6's. But they were actually 1.7's. They didn't figure that out until after cracking 2 cams and spending several thousand dollars. I can't remember which comany they were from but it was one of the big ones. Crane I think. They sent him a set of 1.6's and didn't pick up the tab for the rest of the damage caused by the mess up. Or atleast they haven't since I last heard about it. He was still arguing with them over it.

Anyway, moral of the story, even if stamped with the number of what you bought, check everything you can. If one big company can screw up with it's top end products, who knows what can be in your engine!

Just on the side note, the motor turned over fine when I was there, probably the starter, that big big starter you have there :)

could the flywhell be rubbing on something?

my starter was all messed up after my cam install
i just removed it and added it back in there again and it worked no problems?
maybe give taht a shot?

I hope you are getting some where because it does not sound good!.

You guys are out in left field with rockers this and that. even if they are hitting the valve most times motor will turn over fine.

find where the sounds are coming from.

Mike should be able to help alot.

If Bunker had not said it turned over fine before I would have guessed contact inside the motor.

Start by pulling the starter. If that does not help i would pull the trans next to look at fly wheel and check if it turns over yet. After that you arew most likely headed inside the motor.

Good luck!

If its an automatic, was the torque converter 'spun' into engagement with the trans? Saw that once...

it's a manual tranny.... we put the tranny on outside the car and we think it's ok.....

Matt may be onto something with the starter, I will try pulling it and see.

Mike if you want to come over in the evening today we can do it.... I can't get there until 6 or so though.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.

One last thing Matt and I were talking about is the possibility that the is no lube in the cylinders, so maybe the rings with no oil are making it hard to turn the motor over. is this likely?

Originally posted by bunker
Just on the side note, the motor turned over fine when I was there, probably the starter, that big big starter you have there :)

I cannot say I agree with this comment. I have been there for just about every start and have always felt that the motor was really labouring to turn. That being said a question for Craig and Cory.

When we took all plugs out and the rockers off, the starter did seem to get the motor turning a lot easier did it not?

I would also add that Cory and I sat under the car and turned the crank with the torque wrench at the end of the evening and for about 90 degrees of the turn, there is a squeak, almost like a rubbery, squeaking noise. Of course one can never be sure, but it sounded to me that it was on the drivers side and at the middle part of the engine - as oppossed to the front / hub area.

Remember that when we FIRST started the motor we did have spark and fuel - although 2 plug wires were wrong - but it did not want to catch. We got a few backfires through the intake but I assume that was the plug wire problem.

Thats about all I can add.

Hey guys. When I arrived there engine was "ready to fire" It was assembled and had fuel and spark. The fuel/spark is not the issue right now. The problem was the engine would not crank. Did basic checks on the starter, seems to be pulling ok. My initial impression was that the valves were too loose it was not doing much but compressiong air. Pulled all 8 plugs out and the engine will freewheel using the starter.... but its far too difficult to turn by hand. Then started to loosen the valvetrain off to mak sure that there was no major binding going on there. I dont think there is. It doesnt feel like there is lack of clearence on the rotating assembly as there is never a time where it spins freely by hand. Far as I am concered with plugs out and no valvetrain the engine should be extremely easy to turn over. I am out of ideas to be honest. Id be glad if some expert can look at it and tell me how stupid I am for missing something simple. I hope the problems that I am now considering are incorrect.... for Craigs sake. ;)
Good Luck.
CoryM

Well, if it's 'easier' but not 'easy enough' without generating compression, then there are only a couple of things it could logically be, right? It seems to me everyone's dancing around the real issue here.

a) The rotating assembly / pistons aren't lubed up properly. This is the easiest to fix of all the nightmarish options I'm about to list.

b) The crank is warped ever so slightly.

c) The mains bearings are the wrong size for the machined crank. Proper enough to sit in the journals alright, and have the crank sit in them, but once the mains are torqued, they're putting too much pressure on the crank, not allowing it to spin properly.

These all suck badly. But seriously, what else could it be if you've already tried to turn it by hand after taking the plugs out and loosening the rockers?

Originally posted by msquared
Well, if it's 'easier' but not 'easy enough' without generating compression, then there are only a couple of things it could logically be, right? It seems to me everyone's dancing around the real issue here.

a) The rotating assembly / pistons aren't lubed up properly. This is the easiest to fix of all the nightmarish options I'm about to list.

b) The crank is warped ever so slightly.

c) The mains bearings are the wrong size for the machined crank. Proper enough to sit in the journals alright, and have the crank sit in them, but once the mains are torqued, they're putting too much pressure on the crank, not allowing it to spin properly.

These all suck badly. But seriously, what else could it be if you've already tried to turn it by hand after taking the plugs out and loosening the rockers?


I would hope it's A. How would we go about lubing the motor up? i don't see how it could be B or C since the motor was working fine in it's old car.

Should we maybe just let the starter spin the motor round with plugs out for a few seconds at a time? will that get some oil flowing?

So this isn't a freshly built engine? Hmmmm, that was the assumption I was going on.

If the starter was able to crank it at all, then that should have given the system ample oil to free up a bit, right?

Is it an electric oil pump? Is it working? You guys all seem to know your stuff, but I'm going to go through the cardinal rules I follow when putting a different, used motor in a car, atleast a motor that is going to be enjoyed. vs a $100 engine going in a beater to get a buddy through the winter.

Replace the following:
- Frost plugs, this will also show you if there is any gunk in the cooling system.
- Every gasket/seal you can get at without taking the heads off. Including intake manifold or TB. This includes valve seals/oil pan gasket.
- Oil pump (if the engine was claimed to have only run for 3 months on a strangers new engine, replace it anyway)
- Reinstall the water pump (so you can inspect it)
- Throw a new timing belt/chain on. (60 bucks now, at the very least 60 bucks and a day under the hood later)

I hope this was all done. If not, possibly the oil pump has calfed on you. I should have had this item in my other post.

Otherwise I'm without a clue. Was this engine used on the juice before? Perhaps 120 octane or something like that that could have bent the crank?

Why was this motor for sale to begin with?


****DISCLAIMER****

I am by no means an engine builder, but I'm just going by logic here. I've been inside many engines for many reasons, but do not consider myself an expert. Furthermore, I'm a cocky bastard that would tell you if I was an expert, so modesty is not the issue here! :p

I think the oil pump is OK.... we forgot to plug the pipe-threaded hole right above the filter and oil was being pumped out of that when we cranked it. We sealed it up, and I think we cranked some more. I say "think" because my brain is shot right now and can't really remember. Maybe that was the whole problem for all I know and we should try to keep cranking it till it starts.

if oil was coming out of that hole while cranking is that a sign that the oil pump is doing it's job?

Originally posted by Draco
if oil was coming out of that hole while cranking is that a sign that the oil pump is doing it's job?

Yes :)

Now that I think about it, I think there was a pattern to the starter motor stalling when cranking the motor.

I think I recall the starter motor stalling every 4th "cranking sound" or so.... basically the starter motor would get a couple of normal sounding turns in then nearly stall.... and would repeat this pattern. not sure if that means anything :). Hopefully Mike can come over and see if it does.

Sounds to me like one end of the crank has problems, assuming you're not just hearing things.

Can someone give me a brief history on this motor?

Here is what I know of it. The motor was built by MTI as a 383 8.5:1 FI motor. The motor consists of:

Callies magnum crank
Oliver billet rods
blower pistons with big dishes
callies 4-bolt splayed mains

The motor was run by Steven (Zturbo) with a single t60-1 turbo, and then a t72 turbo, until he broke his driveline at Mission in 2001. The driveshaft, tq arm, and rear end were all broken at the start line on a hard launch using slicks. The motor was putting out about 700 rwtq. This was with a t-56 and a street twin clutch (which were fine after the break).

The motor was then taken from the car, but Steve wanted to run a bigger setup to support more power, so he wanted to sell it. I stepped up to the plate and agreed to buy it :). So the motor has not been run for about 16-18 months I would guess. Nothing was taken out of the motor as far as I know, the cam, lifters, and timing set were all untouched.

The good news is that Steven and Mike are on the case... they have just been busy with things over the weekend. Hopefully they can help bail me out or point out some stupid error we made during the install :). I still don't want to rule out incorrect roller rocker adjustment or a lifter problem, but neither of these should make the motor difficult to turn with no plugs installed.

Originally posted by msquared
Sounds to me like one end of the crank has problems,


Could installing a one-piece hub/dampenr improperly cause this? Not knowing any better, we used a block of wood and a sledge to get the keyed fluidampr onto the crank snout. We didn't hit it overly hard, it took about 10 moderate smacks to get it on. it looks like it is on properly.... but maybe we should pull it and re-install it properly (or maybe we have killed the crank/balancer already by doing this).

That could be a problem, but i don't think tapping a dampner on with hurt the crank. And you wouldn't notice the problems with the balance being out of spec until the engine is fired up at idle, or even reving, if at all.

So unless you guys gave it a real wollup (hehe, i've always wanted to type that) with a 10# sledge, I wouldn't worry about actually warping the crank.

Originally posted by msquared


So unless you guys gave it a real wollup (hehe, i've always wanted to type that) with a 10# sledge, I wouldn't worry about actually warping the crank.

My memory is fuzzy after spending so much time working on this damn thing, but we may have done just that. we used a sledge onto a block of wood, but i didnt do the smacking so i am not sure how much force was applied :( :cry: :cry: :cry:

Oh geeze. I'm sorry to hear that dude. I've never been under the hood of a 4th gen, can you get the oil pan off without too much trouble?

you may wanna do that, take the crank in to a machine shop and get it measured out....

the oil pan won't come off without dropping the y-pipe and k-member as far as I know....

Well that's easier then pulling the engine. You can do that much on your own.

But definately wait and see what these other guys have to say about it. Hopefully someone's ran into this problem before. Perhaps ask around on one of the tech boards.

OK how about this?

If the motor is bone dry with NO oil to lube the parts, would it be hard to turn over even with no compression?

the motor is absolutely bone dry from sitting without running for 16 months. we didnt do ANY lubing before installing the motor, not ever putting oil in the cylinders and turning the motor. I could easily imagine that rubbing sound being the piston(s)... with the sound going away as the piston dwells at the top or bottom of the stroke.

we cranked the motor, but for a while there the plug above the filter was out and oil spilled, so no oil pressure. I am not sure if we tried cranking the car over after we fixed that plug.

could we try putting some motor oil in through the plug holes to lube up the pistons? we can also crank the motor very easily without the plugs in to help spread the oil around....

Hub hammering.

At attempt was made to but the hub on with a block of wood and a small ball peen hammer. I believe little or no progress was made.

I bigger hammer - 10 lbs maybe - was swung like a pendulum and the hub moved quite easily and well, sliding on a good cm at a time and then dropping to maybe a few mm's at a time.

It 'settled' with about 4 - 5 hits and a more gentle whack was applied with no movement.

Let me restate, it was like a pendilum swinging, not a god almight "whollop". Yeah, it is cool to type that word. :)

Could the hub be put on TOO far / tight causing it to foul something on the outside?

Well if a motor has been sitting for a while, you really should put a tablespoon of oil in each piston and let it sit for a couple of hours like that first. Presurize it too if you can. Try to force the oil the leak down.
Then pour a quart of oil over each set of valvetrain. And also, if you can, take the intake off and pour oil down the lifter holes. Soak the cam. If you can take the timing chain off, spin the camshaft by hand, or even take it out and reinstall it with a proper installation fluid on it.

I know this all sounds nit-picky, but an engine that's sat for an amount of time, especially one that's going to get beat on, needs all of the TLC it can get.

With these precautions taken (along with the ones in my post before), almost anything that ran properly before being shut down, should fire up properly.

I left my motor for 6 months once and didn't do all of this to it, it puffed blue for a few days because I didn't give the seals a chance to soak up some oil beforehand. The valvetrain, and cylinder tricks would have sufficed for my instance, but for you I'd definately have done the cam.

But enough of my annoying preaching...

Yeah, the noise could be a pison that's just too dry for it's own good.

The difficulty cranking... I'd still say that your crank is warped. Why?? No idea. I don't think the sledge would have done it. But that's not good for it by any means. Shouldn't a dampner just slide on? No matter what, you shouldn't have been able to shift the crank.

I doubt it would have gone on too far though. So there should be no chance of it binding on anything.

I would still take the oil pan off and inspect the bottom end.

preach on man... I need all the ideas i can get.

For now I am going to assume that the motor is bone dry and try to lube it up a little. if she loosens up a little, then I probably have the answer and I will find a way to get it easy to turn.

this may be a very dumb question but did anyone check to see if all the acc,s turn freely? If the serp belt is on and one of the pulleys are not turning freely that would slow the cranking down.

I wouldn't use the starter anymore if i were you. Get it loose enough to turn by hand first. once that feels right then you should be good to go.

I don't know what to root for. :-)

A partially seized engine, or a warped crank. Either way you may not want to use this engine as the start of a performance engine. Not until you're sure the damaged parts are replaced, anyway... Just getting it running may not be good enough....

Originally posted by MK 94 1LE
this may be a very dumb question but did anyone check to see if all the acc,s turn freely? If the serp belt is on and one of the pulleys are not turning freely that would slow the cranking down.

I would hope they weren't trying to turn it by hand with all the acc's hooked up.

Originally posted by msquared
I would hope they weren't trying to turn it by hand with all the acc's hooked up.

the belt was off....

Originally posted by msquared
I wouldn't use the starter anymore if i were you. Get it loose enough to turn by hand first. once that feels right then you should be good to go.

I don't know what to root for. :-)

A partially seized engine, or a warped crank. Either way you may not want to use this engine as the start of a performance engine. Not until you're sure the damaged parts are replaced, anyway... Just getting it running may not be good enough....


i doubt anything is damaged.... the engine hasn't fired yet so it's only revolved maybe 20 times tops. I'll try to lube her up, turn by hand, and report back

Hammering the crank won't damage the crank, maybe the bearing won't like it too much but nothing major so get that out of your mind by all means.

I know with an automatic you can put the TC on without it being in all the way, but thats not the case.

spray some oil in through the plug holes.

Don't worry about the hub, it has to be in as far as possible to apply pressure on the crank gear so it doesn't come off.

I say put as much oil into the engine as you can, fill it until its so full its comming out of the valve covers :) should be like what, 20-30 litres? just cheap oil should do the trick, when its so full of oil it should be right up to the pistons, full valve train etc.. try turning it over by hand back & fourth, than drain all the oil & put back in the 4.5 litres required or just keep training it & checking the dip stick.

that would be the ultimate way to lube it up, I don't think anyone in the world is every tried it, but I can only see how it would be very benificial to you :)

hope this helps.

lol that is an interesting idea

Originally posted by bunker
I say put as much oil into the engine as you can, fill it until its so full its comming out of the valve covers :) should be like what, 20-30 litres? just cheap oil should do the trick, when its so full of oil it should be right up to the pistons, full valve train etc.. try turning it over by hand back & fourth, than drain all the oil & put back in the 4.5 litres required or just keep training it & checking the dip stick.

that would be the ultimate way to lube it up, I don't think anyone in the world is every tried it, but I can only see how it would be very benificial to you :)



ummmmmm. We'll put that on the list at Plan T. ;)

:) hey whatever its easy & its fast & it can only bring good & absolutely no harm unless you start the car that way :)

Neat idea...

But to be a downer on the parade, where does all the trapped air go? I don't think you'd be able to fill it all up to the brim like that. You may be able to fill half of the oil channels or so. But i doubt the cam would see any oil, and the pistons definately woudln't. The air that's trapped below them wouldn't go anywhere, not without shaking the motor anyway. :-)

You're better off targetting specifically where you want the oil to be....

Although this idea would be good to saturate the crank and main bearings! So just leave the oil that's in it now, and start adding oil through the heads and over the cam. With the extra 3-4 quarts the crank should be bathing in oil!

No, the cam will get saturated aswell, the lifter valley has lots of oilholes in it, including the ones in the timing chain section, the oil will to up, through the timing chain, into the lifter valey & through the lifter valley oil passages into the valley, & up through the holes in the heads for the pushrods & into the valve covers, when you turn the enigne the area will still be equal, as one piston goes down & pushes the oil down, the other piston is going up, trust me, knowing the LT1 & how it looks like inside out, I can only see how this will have no problems working, there will be no trapped air except for in the oil passages that go through the oil filter, as youi turn the crank, the oil pump will move that oil & get the trapped air into the rest of the oil which will inturn cause the air to bubble up through the valve covers which have an opening at the oil fil cap & pcv on the valve cover, it should work just fine, I would than after turning it over a bit leave it be for about 5-10 mins to let the oil seap through every bit of the bearing as possible & try turning it again, if its still a no go ther eis something serioulsy wroing with the motor, is the oil pan touching any part of the crank in any way at all? Just wonring cuz you probably have some fancy oil pump etc... but I doubt it very highly, just try turning the motor & have one ear on the oil pan aswell.

Well all said I'm gonna have to return to class :)

Acctually the only part that I can see having trapped air is the cylinder bores, but once you do a full 360* turn that should let most of it out into the rest of the oil & out through the valve covers, but only about a piston dish full of air trapped.

Craig - call me again on my cell. I did not get YOUR cell number written down right.