Saturn L-Series and Ion sales very slow

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/2003/march/20030303_dai_saturn.xml

Which begs the question, yet again.... Is Saturn worth having or should Gm have Chevy just pick up the slack and get rid of Saturn all together?

Think we can call the car a failure yet, or should we wait awhile?

143 day supply of cars opposed to 60?! :eek:

Sad that with the target of 150,000 f-bodies and in the last few years sales were about 75,000--they axed it

The Saurn L-series appears to be running at less % then the F-body.

hmm....I wonder why Saturns aren't selling???

In all their advertsing they try to pitch Saturn as a different kind of car. Hardly--pastic body panles seem to be one of the only diffeences.

In far more important areas such as hp---the L series lags way behind Camary, Accord, Altima ect.

192hp VS 240 VS 245 VS 181hp Saturn...whoo-dee-doo.

The eco-tec--as much as I like it sufferes a similar power deficet.

Another complaint I have is the interiors--especially the dash, and IP----BORING.


I'll be surprised if that Saturn ION turbo coupe is any good.
That ION 4 door looks a bit weird---damn centre mounted IP too!
In this case, "different" = stuipid

and we have a handy smiley to prove why---->:barf:

Originally posted by 305fan
Sad that with the target of 150,000 f-bodies and in the last few years sales were about 75,000--they axed it

The Saurn L-series appears to be running at less % then the F-body.

hmm....I wonder why Saturns aren't selling???

In all their advertsing they try to pitch Saturn as a different kind of car. Hardly--pastic body panles seem to be one of the only diffeences.

In far more important areas such as hp---the L series lags way behind Camary, Accord, Altima ect.

192hp VS 240 VS 245 VS 181hp Saturn...whoo-dee-doo.

The eco-tec--as much as I like it sufferes a similar power deficet.

Another complaint I have is the interiors--especially the dash, and IP----BORING.


I'll be surprised if that Saturn ION turbo coupe is any good.
That ION 4 door looks a bit weird---damn centre mounted IP too!
In this case, "different" = stuipid

People who bought Saturns didn't buy them because they were speed demons, they bought them because of the dealer experience, which is one of the best in the industry. Dealer service was so good, that despite the problems Saturns had early on, people still gave Saturn high marks.

First GM ignored Saturn for a decade (guess F-body wasn't alone), now Saturn is getting styling that is simply goofy IMHO, and dealer service isn't enough to offset this.

When my sister just finished High School, she contiplated a Saturn. My mom also considered one before she bough her Neon. I don't think the new models appeal across the age spectrum the way the old ones did.

Like Darth, I simply don't see a need for Saturn, when Chevrolet should be doing this market.

Kill Saturn. Let Suzuki sell rebadged Daewoos for $8-$15 K. Let Chevy and Pontiac pick it up above that with Cavalier and Sunfire.

Originally posted by guionM


Like Darth, I simply don't see a need for Saturn, when Chevrolet should be doing this market.

And maybe get Chevy dealerships to be where Saturn Dealerships are, and everything is peachy!! :)

I think the Ion is a good looking small car, They just need to change the dash, I keep thinking maybe I'd get used to it, but then I see it again and think NO. I don't think that dash will last long.

I think the ecotech needs to be about 160HP and the L series V6 should be 200HP,

How about a Diesel L-series?? steal the thunder from VW, and it gets just about as good mileage as a hybred. I think Diesel economy cars would be a good niche for Saturn to get into.

The turbo Ion coming out should also help get the attention of the younger crowd. They need to keep it under $20K so it can steal all the WRX and Evo 8 fans that want a turbo 4cyl. but can't afford $30K for an Evo 8

guionM---you misunderstood my post.

I know people don't buy Saturns because they're speed demons (duh) BUT if youir going to effectively compete in the same mid sized sedan market (that's why I contrasted Accrod, Altima, Camry)Saturn isn't doing themselves any favours by having the lowest hp rated, slowest cars.

I would say their hp isn't competitive at all.

Note, the previous generation Altima--the new one has tons of power and sells much better. Granted, thats not the only reason why but a contributing factor.

They should just throw the L67 in em! ;)

It's a shame that Saturn has gone down hill sales wise. They were doing a lot of things right a few years ago. Dealer service was fantastic, cars were of solid quality and it was building a loyal following. That was back when GM kind of let Saturn just do its thing. I don't think it's any coincidence that once GM "discovered" that they have a potential success story they meddled too much and are at this point. The problem isn't that the Saturn division isn't necessary IMO, the problem is that they've been given a couple of really lousy products to sell. Ion is the most embarrassing effort to come from GM in quite a while. That doesn't help matters much.

Originally posted by 305fan
guionM---you misunderstood my post.

I know people don't buy Saturns because they're speed demons (duh) BUT if youir going to effectively compete in the same mid sized sedan market (that's why I contrasted Accrod, Altima, Camry)Saturn isn't doing themselves any favours by having the lowest hp rated, slowest cars.

I would say their hp isn't competitive at all.

Note, the previous generation Altima--the new one has tons of power and sells much better. Granted, thats not the only reason why but a contributing factor.

Understand ya. But unless I'm mistaken, Camary was (and still is??) normally the slowest cars in it's market. The new Saturns are likely to end up one of the quickest, but you have to get past the styling first.

Altimas look way better than they ever have, and they are selling better. And you're right, it doesn't hurt that those things are now rockets. :)

Coming from someone who works at a Saturn dealer , imo ....Saturn is trying to hard to appeal to certain age groups by OVERSTYLING their new cars . By reaction of long time Saturn buyers , and Im talking bout people who have driven nothing but since Saturn came out , the styling of the new stuff is too odd . Saturn still imo has the dealer service it always had , its CSI proves that . They just need to take a peek back at the 96-99 models years , when they sold ALOT of cars with just the S-series alone . Simple , understated styling that wasnt "hey look at me" or hideous . Actually with the new 01-03 style L300 , if you chop off the whole front clip , from the doors back its a really good looking car , the front is absolutely garish though . If the ION had a more conventional dash , and they cleaned up a little on the outside ( i.e. lets get rid of all the out of place swoopy body cuts and the stupid idea of the replaceable panel over the windows ) and the ION would sell well .

I dont even wanna guess how the ION turbo coupe will do . It better beable to really hurt a turbo neon performance wise for anyone to even look at ......As far as american cars go in this market , I think the SVT focus has this catagory all wrapped up , even being the slower car . Plus the focus has a healthy aftermarket .

Originally posted by Z28x
How about a Diesel L-series?? steal the thunder from VW, and it gets just about as good mileage as a hybred. I think Diesel economy cars would be a good niche for Saturn to get into.

I agree, it was disappointing to have to purchase a foreign product to get what I needed. No domestic vehicle can compete with my VW.

4 year bumper to bumper
5 year powertrain
12 year corrosion!!!
50+ MPG on the highway
Over a 700 mile range on one tank of fuel
DIESEL engine that will last 300K+ miles (it started after being parked outside in -20F weather over night with no coolant or block heater)
heated seats, heated mirrors, sunroof, power everything
$18,500

And to top it of, I have discovered that this car has a decent after market. With a computer reprogram and new injectors ($800) you can expect 150HP and 290TQ to the wheels (new clutch may be required) Torque at 2200RPM in a 3,150lb car. People with these modifications still average well over 40MPG.


(I know the Vibe has a Toyota engine, but it was assembled by American workers)

Jason

Originally posted by dabear95
(I know the Vibe has a Toyota engine, but it was assembled by American workers)


Actually the Vibe has a Yamaha engine.

You make good points about the Diesel, With a company the size of GM they should be make cars in this niche, maybe they are waiting until 2005 or 06 when the new Deisel comes up. only by then everyone else will have a similar car out.

Originally posted by guionM
People who bought Saturns didn't buy them because they were speed demons, they bought them because of the dealer experience, which is one of the best in the industry.


DUH!! Spend billions on a new brand and dealer network instead of fixing what's broke:eek:

According to some, GM has too many dealerships for their market share. Setting a new standard for dealership performance .... using Saturn dealers as the benchmark ... then dumping those that don't meet it would look after the excess and make all GM product more desireable. Then reward the Saturn dealers with product consistent with their performance.

I could drive through the doorgaps on a new Saturn Ion.

I know they use the "plastic" excuse, but what about the Corvette? They fit fine, and I understand the new ones will have 3mm gaps.

Stick a fork in Saturn. They're done.

I would also like to see Saturn try their hand at a diesel engine.
Some of the domestics need to get into this market. It's solely dominated by VW right now.
The closest domestic small diesel will be the Jeep Liberty when it comes out....
I've also read and heard nothing but bad reviews about the ion so it's no wonder the sales are poor.:o
Sure it's got a 5spd auto but from what I hear you can't manually shift it at all. It just shifts whenever it feels like no matter what gear it is in. It also shifts well before redline under hard acceleration.:(

What problems does the Ion have other than the dumb dashboard/gages? I think the exterior looks good, some don't like the C-pillar but Nissans have the same thing. it also has more power than the S-series.

The new quad coupe with the 17" is one of the best looking small cars on the market.
http://media.gm.com/events/productseminar/images/hires/X03ST_IN041.jpg
http://www.conceptcarz.com/img/saturn/saturn_ion_quad_vision_nyc_03eight.jpg

the best pic:
http://autoworld.com/news/saturn/X02SV_ST011.jpg

tuner coupe:
http://www.greatimes.ru/cars/sat_conc/full/satutuner.jpg

Originally posted by Z28x
What problems does the Ion have other than the dumb dashboard/gages? I think the exterior looks good, some don't like the C-pillar but Nissans have the same thing. it also has more power than the S-series.

The new quad coupe with the 17" is one of the best looking small cars on the market.
http://media.gm.com/events/productseminar/images/hires/X03ST_IN041.jpg
http://www.conceptcarz.com/img/saturn/saturn_ion_quad_vision_nyc_03eight.jpg

the best pic:
http://autoworld.com/news/saturn/X02SV_ST011.jpg

tuner coupe:
http://www.greatimes.ru/cars/sat_conc/full/satutuner.jpg


I like the back end... the front is tollerable...

but the C-Pillar is rotten.

Also, the Silver roof bar things are just hideous....

Those 4 spoke wheels are ugly as sin too...

yeah the 4 doors wheels (at least one version) looks like it was made by lego!!! How is that for "different" (too ugly different)

I'll agree the coupe looks better but the IP would probably stop me from buying it.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
Also, the Silver roof bar things are just hideous....

Those 4 spoke wheels are ugly as sin too...

Roof bar is interchangable, you can get it in any color you like.

I don't care for 4 spoke rims either, but again rims can be changed, check out the pics of the blue care with the chrome 17" 5 spokes. that car also has a black roof bar.

Originally posted by Z28x
Roof bar is interchangable, you can get it in any color you like.

I don't care for 4 spoke rims either, but again rims can be changed, check out the pics of the blue care with the chrome 17" 5 spokes. that car also has a black roof bar.


Ah. I didn't know you could get a body color roof bar... all the ones at the Cleveland Auto Show had that Silver color. :barf: Thanks for the info though :)


Wheels can be changed, true, but there is no reason for having the stock ones be so blocky and clunky looking. :(

The roof rails are customizable, I think the dash trim can be changed too.

http://saturn.com:97/ion3/accessories/

They don't show what all the color choices are though.

A Diesel Saturn would be a very good idea indeed. I think it could be done easily if GM used one from their European engine line up too.

Originally posted by Z28x
The roof rails are customizable, I think the dash trim can be changed too.

http://saturn.com:97/ion3/accessories/

They don't show what all the color choices are though.

:eek:

The one pictured looks like wood grain!

This is just odd.

I mean, who in their lives has said ... "You know, I'd love to be able to customize the look of my roof rails!!" :confused:


I just don't get it... :o

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I mean, who in their lives has said ... "You know, I'd love to be able to customize the look of my roof rails!!" :confused:

I've seen ricers do worse.:D

I think this feature is mostly marketed towards kids.

Does anyone know if the Saturn Tuner coupe will be a turbo or S/C 4cyl.????

and if it is going to be out this fall shouldn't it be at the auto shows by now? maybe NYC.

Originally posted by Z28x

Does anyone know if the Saturn Tuner coupe will be a turbo or S/C 4cyl.????


It will be supercharged.

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
It's a shame that Saturn has gone down hill sales wise. They were doing a lot of things right a few years ago. Dealer service was fantastic, cars were of solid quality and it was building a loyal following. That was back when GM kind of let Saturn just do its thing. I don't think it's any coincidence that once GM "discovered" that they have a potential success story they meddled too much and are at this point.


Originally posted by 90 Z28SS
the styling of the new stuff is too odd . Saturn still imo has the dealer service it always had , its CSI proves that . They just need to take a peek back at the 96-99 models years , when they sold ALOT of cars with just the S-series alone . Simple , understated styling that wasnt "hey look at me" or hideous .

:bow: to both those posts. the SL1 and SL2 cars were HIGH volume cars that were decent looking and appealed to plenty of different markets. My sister has a 96 SL2 DOHC. 110K miles, absolutely like new.The 91-95 and 96-99(?) SL's built in Tennessee have absolute top notch quality, built like no other. Not sure where the new LS series is being built, but I've heard tons of complaints already on this relatively new car ever since GM stepped too far into the equation. Dealer attitude/courtesy still has the Saturn feeling to it, but it's starting to feel a little more forced, like they know things are about to go south.

They say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well the SL's direction was just fine & dandy, while the LS is crap-in-disguise from the getgo. I won't even go into Ion.

Originally posted by centric
I could drive through the doorgaps on a new Saturn Ion.

I know they use the "plastic" excuse, but what about the Corvette? They fit fine, and I understand the new ones will have 3mm gaps.

Stick a fork in Saturn. They're done.

It all comes down to the fact that Saturn buyers aren't all that perceptive. They're buying into the quality bunk, and going for the nannying brand image. In reality, all GM is offering Saturn buyers are low-style plastic Hyundais.

Originally posted by redzed
It all comes down to the fact that Saturn buyers aren't all that perceptive. They're buying into the quality bunk, and going for the nannying brand image. In reality, all GM is offering Saturn buyers are low-style plastic Hyundais.

?? Obviously you've never owned one, so I understand how you can go forming such flawed opinions. The mechanical quality AND the build quality are top notch. I can only speak about the SL1/SL2, since those are the only ones I've ever ridden in, and I've seen nothing but good things consistently.

General rule of thumb is that if a Saturn was built in Spring Hill TN, it's thumbs up quality, if it was built elsewhere like the newer ones, then it's plain ol' GM quality.

Originally posted by kizz
?? Obviously you've never owned one, so I understand how you can go forming such flawed opinions. The mechanical quality AND the build quality are top notch. I can only speak about the SL1/SL2, since those are the only ones I've ever ridden in, and I've seen nothing but good things consistently.

General rule of thumb is that if a Saturn was built in Spring Hill TN, it's thumbs up quality, if it was built elsewhere like the newer ones, then it's plain ol' GM quality.

I remember the disappointment I felt when I was in a friend's Saturn Sedan back in the early '90s. The "specially designed" automatic transmission was incapable of a smooth shift and the interior quality was attrocious. There were little ill-fitting platic plugs over the screw holes on top of the dash and the driver's side airbag looked like it had been salvaged from a Pontiac Bonneville - pretty much where it came from. Since then I've seen Saturns where the bottom of the steel door frame was rusting away - plastic body panels must have taken the place of proper rustproofing. Overall, I can't say that a Saturn is superior to any car.

After all the hype about "import fighting," I don't think Saturn is even able to compete with the improving Korean brands, let alone Honda. Saturns aren't exactly cheap, and they arent Toyota's either.

I can't justify or even comment on anything other than SL1/SL2 because those are primarily the ones I'm familiar with and I've had nothing but good luck with 'em, as has everyone I know who has come into contact with one. And SC1/SC2 is basically the same thing with 2 doors. The shoddy interior you describe doesn't sound typical at all.

anyway as far as the main topic, I wouldn't really expect Saturn's status to be affected even if sales are really crawling as slowly as people have said. If it ever became situation:critical, I would expect GM to throw a gob of money in Saturn's direction as a final attempt to revive them, inadvertently taking away more of Saturn's receding independence. And when that revival failed, then Saturn's future would come into question, if they have the same generally anemic / useless models as today. But for now they are still ON the downward spiral, at worst, as opposed to being at the bottom of it. Things could change for the better. Either way I don't care, but I want to see the SKY in person sooner or later; that's about all the interest I have in them.