Will my brakes survive a track school?

I've been auto crossing for a couple seasons now and love it. But i really want to do a couple track schools/ lapping sessions a year.

Right now my brakes are basically stock- I freshened them last year with new rubber hoses, turned rotors in the back, power slots in the front and Bendix severe duty pads all the way around. They've worked great for auto x, but obviously don't get too hot after a 45 second auto x circuit.

Whats the minium I should do to make the car brakes somewhat reliable? Are cooling hoses to the front a must? How would I go about installing them.

Any thoughts appreciated fellas, thanks.

Tim:cool:

Alot of people put LS1 brakes on front. I hear they work much better. After about ten laps at PIR I get some significant fade so have to slow down. If you are able to push your car hard at the track please beware the brakes can fade to the point of being dangerous. Also make sure you power steering fluid is fresh. This will also be a problem. I've gotten away with it so far but last track day my power steering pump made quite the strange noise. The noise went away and my steerings been working fine but of course I have to wonder. I find being able to steer is fairly important at 130 mph. I don't want to scare you but pay attention to how your brakes feel. Be sure to keep fresh fluid in there as over time it will absorb moisture which will lower the boiling temp.

Tim:

You will not find the LT1 brakes to be very good!
At a very minium you should do a LS1 upgrade or better! Also be sure to at least change the power steering fluid to synthetic and possibly a P/S cooler.
I run C5 brakes on my SS along with Ducting, (do a search, lots of pep's have pic's)

Also, if you want to upgrade to a LS1 set up, I have calipers and a couple of sets of new rotors along with some good track pads. You would have to buy spindles and probably should go with stainless lines.

Good luck!

Gary

Originally posted by GM98Z
Tim:

You will not find the LT1 brakes to be very good!
At a very minium you should do a LS1 upgrade or better! Also be sure to at least change the power steering fluid to synthetic and possibly a P/S cooler.
I run C5 brakes on my SS along with Ducting, (do a search, lots of pep's have pic's)

Also, if you want to upgrade to a LS1 set up, I have calipers and a couple of sets of new rotors along with some good track pads. You would have to buy spindles and probably should go with stainless lines.

Good luck!

Gary

Jeez Gary, how convenient! You just happen to have the parts, JK !! :)

I kind of figured the LS1 upgrade was inevitable. How invloved, pricey is the switch? Feel free to PM me with the particulars.



Everyone else, keep the opinions coming- I'd rather draw from the experience of others than learn the hard way.

Tim

While I agree that the stock brakes need serious help on a track, keep in mind that *you* are driving the car and have control of how heavily you use the brakes. You can certainly have a good time and learn a whole bunch about driving on a track without diving deep into the third brake marker before you nail the brakes at each turn. It won't be even close to optimal if you're looking for the best lap times, but it's certainly doable to enjoy a track day here and there.

Dave

I've run stock brakes before, part of avoiding fade is using the brakes when you need them, not using them prematurely and softly (dragging the brakes will heat them up and not slow you much). I did see fade though, no ducting and Hawk HPS pads. My 240Z has almost the same size rotor as the LT1 car, yet is around 1200 pounds less.

For the money the LS1 upgrade is nice, I've ridden in an LS1 TA with good front pads and I was impressed compared to my car, I thought HE had upgraded his setup but they were stock LS1 parts just better pads (not race pads either). Plus the TA is known to be a little heavy, and two of us (both heavy) being in the car didn't help, but still its a great budget setup $250-$300 nowdays.

I have used the stock LT1 brakes for 1-1/2 & 8 different track days and they have done an admirable job.

Only one of the three tracks that I run at have the brakes been and issue, but they were a huge issue there. This track is very brake intensive compared to the other two.

I am upgrading to C5 brakes right now. I have had the parts for a long time, but I had a stock pile of 16" tires to use before I could make the switch.

Originally posted by warner
Alot of people put LS1 brakes on front. I hear they work much better. After about ten laps at PIR I get some significant fade so have to slow down. If you are able to push your car hard at the track please beware the brakes can fade to the point of being dangerous. Also make sure you power steering fluid is fresh. This will also be a problem. I've gotten away with it so far but last track day my power steering pump made quite the strange noise. The noise went away and my steerings been working fine but of course I have to wonder. I find being able to steer is fairly important at 130 mph. I don't want to scare you but pay attention to how your brakes feel. Be sure to keep fresh fluid in there as over time it will absorb moisture which will lower the boiling temp.

Hey warner, are you on the local nw-f-body mailing list? Who did you go with to PIR? (like a certain club, or driving school?)

Originally posted by Ken S
Hey warner, are you on the local nw-f-body mailing list? Who did you go with to PIR? (like a certain club, or driving school?)

Ken: I didn't know there was a local nw-f-body mailing list. I went to the track with Cascade racing school and with the Corvette club I was invited. I also started autocrossing last year. Much fun.
Let me know about he nw f body info. Is this the "Team NW Fbody I think based in Washington by any chance. If so I emailed them and never received a response as I wouldn't mind going up to Bremerton and Seattle for some fun this year. Let me know. Thanks

http://www.teamnwfbody.org./

Join up!

I'd find Bob Bishop on this board-he's the brake guru; he's got the C5 setup on his 94Z ( I think it's a 94) and he's got a wealth of information and experience.

I've just upgraded my 98 SS with Power Slots, Hawk HP Plus front pads, and Motul 600 (600 degree) DOT 4 brake fluid. I haven't been to the track yet, but I am hoping the stock LS1 setup with these additions will get me by for now. Bob spoke very highly of this Motul 600 fluid--high boiling point, less water absorption. You can get it at LG motorsports, although they do charge for it. He was not high on GM fluid--said it was poor and sucked up lots of water.

I'll report back after my first track trip, which will be no later than May to Road Atlanta, and tell you how this setup did, which was, of course, not expensive. If you need to get LS1 calipers, etc., that would be extra cost.

Originally posted by t.renz

Whats the minium I should do to make the car brakes somewhat reliable? Are cooling hoses to the front a must? How would I go about installing them.

Any thoughts appreciated fellas, thanks.

Tim:cool:

Tim, to answer your question ... yes, new rotors and pads, properly bedded and seasoned and a freshened flush of quality brake fuid will last you a weekend w/o the need for ducting.

Like said earlier, you have to know that the brakes will be limited and you have to be careful about over using the brakes.

However, if this is your first time at a given track and the group running the event is anything like the ones I've run with, your first event will be very controlled and very informative.

So, you will probably not tax your brakes too much. Go have some fun and be cautious till you know yourself, your car and the track.

Mitch, do you really think thats good advise? What if he loses brakes?

Ford HD fluid is supposed to be both cheap and good. I used Valvoline Syn Fluid on my T/A for RA. At least put in ducts. Even cheapie ones are better than none. You can easily remove them afterwards.

Loosing brakes is very scary at the very least. I raced W2W on stock LT1 brakes last year. I ran $200 pads, Motul 600 fluid and ducts. I only lost brakes once. It was at 120 mph coming into a 90 degree right hander. I went for the swamp to avoid rolling it. The damage was only $300 or $400 since i missed all the trees.

BobC

My very first track event, I had brake fade but I was not fast enough to "lose" my brakes. In other words I pretty much believe you should have some warning, I was using entry level synthetic fluid (517º dry boil maybe, OTC stuff at any auto parts store). I think I had Hawk HPS on the front but I am not sure, either way, I think you will have warning when your brakes are going, just drive a but slower for half a lap or more depending on how bad your brakes are (they will be weak).

What kind of speeds will you be seeing? If your on a slower track you will have an even easier time on the brakes, all in all I dont think you really have anything to worry about. Just pay attention to your brake use and the feel, it should be pretty obvious when they fade.

Originally posted by BobC
Mitch, do you really think thats good advise? What if he loses brakes?

BobC

Bob ... I understand your concern and this topic kinda got off subject ...

He said ...


I've been auto crossing for a couple seasons now and love it. But i really want to do a couple track schools/ lapping sessions a year.



I have to assume because of his seasons with AX he understands brake modulation.

And, every track school/lapping session I've attended kept the students reigned in as far as over-driving the car. Again, I assume the same will hold true in this case.

Again, I'm giving benefit of the doubt. For a first timer, stock brakes ought to be just fine. AllZWay has attended several weekends with us using Ford HD fluid and stock brakes without an issue.

I did say this ...

new rotors and pads, properly bedded and seasoned and a freshened flush of quality brake fuid


I never eluded to him turning FTD or out-braking GT2s. It's a first time event ...

Like Mitch said... I have used the stock LT1 brakes for many track days and only had one issue.

We run 3 tracks and only one is harsh enough on the brakes to be an issue. I ran stock calipers, rotors, and a better pad (usually the PFC 90, but sometimes the top PFC from Autozone).

And I have never ran any cooling ducts on my car.

So your stock LT1 brakes will work fine and as you get faster you will want to change them.

I just upgraded to a C5 setup.

If it was a track with loooong straights and some sharp turns thereafter, I'd probably be worried or figure out what to do about it (ducting and fluid at least).

Good point, DM.

But, I would certainly hope that ANY school or DE group he runs at would have some sort of "control" over the students ...

If not, then maybe find a different run group ...

Thats a toughie, you can talk to people only so much and get so much of an answer. "How are your brakes?" - "Oh they are AWESOME!"

I guess you could ask what someone has done to thier brakes to prepare, but what if they dont even know? Not many cars of course have brake ducting, and some things are easy to check for. If they have enough people on hand via seperate run groups etc, to give some tutoring at least for a first session that would be great.

If it were a speedway, some groups if not most, that run speedways will use cones to make it more track like as opposed to just a big oval. There is at least one very fast track here in CA that would probably be risky for brakes. I think primarily its going to be brake use thats important, and some self monitoring, but there are only so many things you can tell people right?

Like, dont put a drill up your nose to solve an itch, dont drink gasoline, apperantly some people didn't know those things :eek:

As long as you know your car's limits and stay well within them, I guess, but I'd sure have ducts. Maybe you won't push it to the limits like I do...

BobC

I would honestly take of your power slot rotors and go back to the factory ones. You will have a BAD issue with them cracking. It really sucks when you have a rotor desitagrate while under heavy braking. Also drain all of your brake fluid and go to Ford HD (cheap) brake fluid or SuperBlue if you have the cash.. If you don't want to do that make sure you bleed your brakes very well. Beyond that make sure you don't over heat the brakes while your out there. Bring extra brake and power steering fluid- check after every run.

Bleeding the fluid until new stuff comes out is much easier, if you drain it all first then you have to bleed the master cylinder also.