2003...Mustang 390hp...Camaro 0

For 2003 Mustang packs 390 horses... Camaro..0

Do you wait for 5th gen or do you get a Mustang?

I would wait for next years NAIAS & LA's International auto show first. It appears that Chrysler's new RWD cars, a Mustang concept, & at least a Camaro concept might be shown being that all seem to be planned for the 2004 calender year.

If no Camaro, then I'd say things don't look good.

For the Mustang Bullit, advertised over 270 HP, what did it come with? 265. For the Mustang GaySpecial Terminator, advertised over 375, or whatever, will be way under that.

The day that a stock mustang comes with 390 HP, will be the day that that a 4th gen overnight goes to FWD. It aint happening. At least not in large numbers. Remeber the Cobra R? No stereo or AC?!?!?!

By that time, the vete will be close to 500.

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Getting a Z28 or SS this May, cant wait. =)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by aeromaks:

The day that a stock mustang comes with 390 HP, will be the day that that a 4th gen overnight goes to FWD. .

</font>


When a Mustang comes with 390hp...the Camaro won't be going FWD.....it will just be going!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by aeromaks:
For the Mustang Bullit, advertised over 270 HP, what did it come with? 265. For the Mustang GaySpecial Terminator, advertised over 375, or whatever, will be way under that.

The day that a stock mustang comes with 390 HP, will be the day that that a 4th gen overnight goes to FWD. It aint happening. At least not in large numbers. Remeber the Cobra R? No stereo or AC?!?!?!

By that time, the vete will be close to 500.

</font>

The Cobra R was produced the way it was for a very "specific" reason, one that is different then the upcoming Cobra. Fords intentions weren't to compete with the z06 head on or make it a street/luxury sports car. Had they wanted to do that, they'd have a street version with the cubes to match. As for the power, all i have to say is "Supercharged 4.6L Dohc" http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif. Go see the hp that the average blown 4.6L dohc on 7-9 pounds of boost makes. Yes, 460-490 horses!!. 390 would be very achievable and quite possibly underrated, even with low boost.

Keep an eye on next months auto show, and keep a kleenex near by. As for the vette, 500 is little high. The next z06 would be lucky to see 450.

If you guys didn't know cause of the latest problems Fords been having cutting down in size, the Mustang Terminator has been terminated for who knows how long.

Ford has a recent history of over-rating their cars, or missing production all together. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif Enough said.




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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

Even if the Cobras' 390hp end up being over rated (and I think SVT is very sensitive about NOT doing that)...the point is ..it will be entering a market place with no new Camaro; or announcement on a new Camaro; on the horizon.


Should the Camaro faithful wait indefinitely?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Even if the Cobras' 390hp end up being over rated (and I think SVT is very sensitive about NOT doing that)...the point is ..it will be entering a market place with no new Camaro; or announcement on a new Camaro; on the horizon.


Should the Camaro faithful wait indefinitely?</font>

Indefinately? No...

But I, personally, wouldn't jump on the first thing to come out... unless I loved it of course... I am not a big fan of the current Mustang. Sure, it's more along the lines of what I like that most other cars out there today, but I just dont care for the styling or the driving position, etc...



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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

I don't care if Ford came out with a Mustang that produced 450 HP, I'd still go with a Chevy. If Ford had such a Mustang it would go for about $60,000. Affordable high performance is packed in none other but Chevy. When the new Z28 is born it will have great performance but still be reasonably priced!

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Millennium Silver SS Coupe A4
Interior....black leather
SLP build..4,982
(1 of 49)... (Silver SS HDTP A4)'s...produced in 2K
Stock..except..K&N and Holley Flowtech Muffler
original Camaro Super Sport connoisseur

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by original SS:
When the new Z28 is born it will have great performance but still be reasonably priced!

</font>

When the new Z/28 is born...I won't be happy with "great performance"...I will accept nothing less than "world beating/awesome performance."

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
When the new Z/28 is born...I won't be happy with "great performance"...I will accept nothing less than "world beating/awesome performance."

</font>

Let's be realisitic here... Z28 won't be faster than a Vette... so "World Beating" is a bit of a stretch...

Assuming it will share a verison of Corvette's powertain, slightly detuned, is to be expected.

It should be the Bang For The Buck leader again... but I doubt it will be a "World Beater" at a price around $25-$27k...

... and being a "World Beater" is Corvette's job anyway... not Camaro's.

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif




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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

Well I guess I should clarify myself...when I say "world beater" maybe I don't mean competing with Dodge Viper, Porsche 911 turbo or Maranella 550. But I do mean world class in chassis dynamics, fit and finish and refinement....and who knows maybe performance that can nip at the heels of those exotics.

Don't forget..I expect the performance bar to be raised for the C6....leaving room for the next Z/28 to have unprecedented performance in it's segment...and from the sound of things at "team Mustang"..it may need it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Well I guess I should clarify myself...when I say "world beater" maybe I don't mean competing with Dodge Viper, Porsche 911 turbo or Maranella 550. But I do mean world class in chassis dynamics, fit and finish and refinement....and who knows maybe performance that can nip at the heels of those exotics.

Don't forget..I expect the performance bar to be raised for the C6....leaving room for the next Z/28 to have unprecedented performance in it's segment...and from the sound of things at "team Mustang"..it may need it.</font>

Well, in these terms, I certainly agree with you 100%. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif




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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

Anybody read the 390hp cobra article in this months MT?

"For the Mustang Bullit, advertised over 270 HP, what did it come with? 265. For the Mustang GaySpecial Terminator, advertised over 375, or whatever, will be way under that.
The day that a stock mustang comes with 390 HP, will be the day that that a 4th gen overnight goes to FWD."

BITE YOUR TOUNGE!!
The last supercharged & intercooled car Ford had was the 96 supercoupe thunderbird at 230 hp from a 3.8L V6. That same year, the base V6 was putting out 145 hp. So it is extremely likely that if anything, a supercharger on a 320 hp DOHC V8 will be UNDERRATED! And it will be as regular of a production model as the current Cobra (by the way, "special" will likely be dropped by the Chicago auto show & will be called just Cobra).

Just because there will not be a Camaro for a year or two max, does not mean people will run out and buy Mustangs. I will never own one because I do not like them. If I was in the market for a car at that time, i would buy a used Vette for the same price. Also, I am not very worried about any new Mustang and it's performance. Ford has been promising new special Mustangs and higher horsepower numbers, but the vehicles never seem to deliver the goods and with Ford's finacial state, i doubt things will change. One of the reasons for that is because they don't have to change, they already sell well.

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95' Z28 M6 (bright red)

-Borla exhaust, Edelbrock 1 5/8" headers and Y-pipe, no cat, G2 cold air, Edelbrock 52mm throttle body, underdrive pulleys, Crane Gold roller rockers, 3.73 gears, MSD 6AL and MSD wires, free mods.

-Hurst shifter, Bilstein shocks, Eibach springs, Metco control arms with relocation brackets, Hotchkis panhard rod, SLP subframe connectors, 1LE aluminum driveshaft, 1lE tranny mount, PolyEurethane end links, TA girdle.

No doubt the Cobra's history of delivering horsepower is pretty bad. However, SVT has one mean tire smokin example of power delivered in spades, the lightning. A truck that is UNDERRATED by at least 20 hp and runs 13.8's bone stock with no traction. So if the same group of people that put that beast out were on this Cobra project, forget about beating Z28s, this thing will run nose to nose with a Z06. Now if some you fellas can't see the good in that, then you're just screwin yourselves. I for one don't hate Ford products or Chevy products or even *** crap. If that new Nissan 350Z comes out with 300hp for 25K as claimed and runs mid 13s I'd consider it too.

I'm saying 410hp stock on the '03 Cobra.
Chip,pulley,exhaust,headers = 500hp

what is the new 390hp cobra gonna cost? that's all i need to know...

Low 30's I heard.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL:
Just because there will not be a Camaro for a year or two max, does not mean people will run out and buy Mustangs. I will never own one because I do not like them.

</font>

My thoughts exactly. Who cares if Ford ups the Stang's power. It's taken them long enough. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif The new GT's are just now at LT1 levels, pathetic. Used, high mileage LT1/LS1's will be taking down new Fords for a loooong time, 390 horses or not.



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'81 Turbo T/A
-'75 Pontiac 400
-Richmond 5-speed/3.70's
-drunk bitch induced front-end damage, placed on indefinite hiatus.

'97 Z-28
-LT1 350
-Borg Warner T56 6-speed
-descreened MAF, blocked off air silencer, TB bypassed, Flow Tech Warlock 3in. muffler w/ built-in cutout, Moroso CAI, custom cold air scoop = 277.7 rwhp/ 301.9 rwtq; add-on's since last dyno = Hypertech airfoil

question?why does ford need forced ind. in their cars to compete with pushrod tech?(NA) fine,they have smaller cubes.dont the europeons have smaller DOHC motors with forced ind. and they move out.i like cobras alot,but the best bang for your money comes from GM.you can bet that terminator stang will cost more than a z06 and not perform as well.if theres no new camaro or firebird around when im ready to buy new again ill just have to save for a vette.i just hope the stang isnt next to go on the MIA list.

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99 Hugger SS Y2Y. mods:whisper,K@N,slp fan switch,nittos on ugly 16" v6 firebird rims,factory installed dual dual.best et 13.2 at 104 2.0 60'

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:
No doubt the Cobra's history of delivering horsepower is pretty bad. However, SVT has one mean tire smokin example of power delivered in spades, the lightning. A truck that is UNDERRATED by at least 20 hp and runs 13.8's bone stock with no traction. So if the same group of people that put that beast out were on this Cobra project, forget about beating Z28s, this thing will run nose to nose with a Z06. Now if some you fellas can't see the good in that, then you're just screwin yourselves. I for one don't hate Ford products or Chevy products or even *** crap. If that new Nissan 350Z comes out with 300hp for 25K as claimed and runs mid 13s I'd consider it too.

I'm saying 410hp stock on the '03 Cobra.
Chip,pulley,exhaust,headers = 500hp</font>


Last I checked SVT (Ford) did the Lightning and the Cobra... so what has changed? The same people have always made both. I don't see any reason to expect anything different.


------------------
Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS:
question?why does ford need forced ind. in their cars to compete with pushrod tech?(NA) fine,they have smaller cubes.dont the europeons have smaller DOHC motors with forced ind. and they move out.i like cobras alot,but the best bang for your money comes from GM.you can bet that terminator stang will cost more than a z06 and not perform as well.if theres no new camaro or firebird around when im ready to buy new again ill just have to save for a vette.i just hope the stang isnt next to go on the MIA list.

</font>

Super Charger from factory = compensation for a (comparatively) weak motor...


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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

Hey Darth....I don't care if Ford needs to fit warp coils to the 4.6 to pump up the power...the better the Mustang is...the better the Camaro will HAVE to be...we should all be rooting for the Mustang on this.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Hey Darth....I don't care if Ford needs to fit warp coils to the 4.6 to pump up the power...the better the Mustang is...the better the Camaro will HAVE to be...we should all be rooting for the Mustang on this.</font>


I agree!

I want the Mustang to get faster... that only means a faster Camaro...

But, before everyone says how great a Super Charged Stang is, think about spending that same money on a Z28 and slap a SC on it, and you blow the Stang away. Granted, it's not factory, but you get the idea... And if GM goes the same route with offering a dealer installed SC like it now does on the Grand Am... well, that might be not too far fetched.

Anyway, I'd rather have my HP made NA, rather than SC'd...


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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

I agree... I want my Z06 style Z/28 to be "all" motor...and to smoke Cobras and Chargers at will!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:

Last I checked SVT (Ford) did the Lightning and the Cobra... so what has changed? The same people have always made both. I don't see any reason to expect anything different.


</font>

There is an SVT group and an SVE group under Ford. The fiasco of underpowered '99 Cobras and no 2000 Cobras came from the handoff of the Cobra from SVE to SVT after '98. The '01 Cobra was given back to SVE and they did the best they could given the mess they were handed. The infamous Cobra fix came out of SVE and allowed them to make come close to making rated hp. The '01's are still a compromise of screwed up design. Thus a skip of '02 straight to '03 with SVE calling all the shots. A low compression iron block 4.6 intercooled SC with Cobra heads. They made the Lightning work better than expected and so will the Cobra.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Hey Darth....I don't care if Ford needs to fit warp coils to the 4.6 to pump up the power...the better the Mustang is...the better the Camaro will HAVE to be...we should all be rooting for the Mustang on this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree!

I want the Mustang to get faster... that only means a faster Camaro...

But, before everyone says how great a Super Charged Stang is, think about spending that same money on a Z28 and slap a SC on it, and you blow the Stang away. Granted, it's not factory, but you get the idea... And if GM goes the same route with offering a dealer installed SC like it now does on the Grand Am... well, that might be not too far fetched.

Anyway, I'd rather have my HP made NA, rather than SC'd... </font>


No offense but I don't see a SC in your sig. My point being that we can all talk about JUST boltin' on a supercharger and whuppin the Cobra, but fact is most guys on here aren't going to do that. It voids warranties, they can be a headache on high compression cast piston motors,you'll never get the same gains as a motor designed from ground up as a supercharged engine, and on and on. Fact is, like you, 7 out of 10 guys try to gain performance from bolt ons, 2 out 10 do cams and heads, and 1 out of 10 will do a SC, and then there's the 1 out of 100 guy who does it right and builds a $4000 shortblock designed for a SC.

Bottom line is there's no replacement for factory engineering. Buick GNs and the Ford Lightning are proof of that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:

No offense but I don't see a SC in your sig. My point being that we can all talk about JUST boltin' on a supercharger and whuppin the Cobra, but fact is most guys on here aren't going to do that. It voids warranties, they can be a headache on high compression cast piston motors,you'll never get the same gains as a motor designed from ground up as a supercharged engine, and on and on. Fact is, like you, 7 out of 10 guys try to gain performance from bolt ons, 2 out 10 do cams and heads, and 1 out of 10 will do a SC, and then there's the 1 out of 100 guy who does it right and builds a $4000 shortblock designed for a SC.

Bottom line is there's no replacement for factory engineering. Buick GNs and the Ford Lightning are proof of that.

</font>


Yeah... I wish I was able to put a SC in my sig http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

My point wasn't so much that alot of people add the SC, but more to the effect that they COULD do it for the same price as buying a SC Cobra and whoop it...

I paid $22,000 for my Z new... stickered for $25,000... the Cobra will surely be at least $30,000...

Now, if I were planning on spending $30,000 (and I was not)... I would have had around 8k to add a SC to my LS1... as for the warranty issues... that's why I proposed that GM offer the dealer installed program like the started for the Grand Ams... I don't think that is totally out there in therms of possibilities.

Basically... You can add a supercharger to a NA engine (liek LS1/6) but you can't add a SC to a engine that already has a SC...

I'm kind of going in circles on this one, but I hope you can see my point...


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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited January 29, 2002).]

Originally posted by Z284ever:
"Hey Darth....I don't care if Ford needs to fit warp coils to the 4.6 to pump up the power...the better the Mustang is...the better the Camaro will HAVE to be...we should all be rooting for the Mustang on this."

100% agreement here.

I know this is a little of topic, but anyway...

I don't know that much about Superchargers, and was wondering if 10:1 compression is too high to run a supercharger with.

Anybody know?

CJ6873/F_O_G

Just to give you an example of forced induction, the LS1 is very capable of taking some sizable boost with stock internals. Much moreso than the LT1. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif Anyway, there is a guy in Michigan that was running a twin turbo setup on a stock LS1 with 8 (or more http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif) pounds of boost. Car was making close to 600 RWHP, and it held up for well over a year of hard driving. He just recently had everything rebuilt with heavy duty parts to be sure, but the fact remains...the LS1 can very safely be run with a good amount of boost.

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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yeah... I wish I was able to put a SC in my sig

My point wasn't so much that alot of people add the SC, but more to the effect that they COULD do it for the same price as buying a SC Cobra and whoop it...

I paid $22,000 for my Z new... stickered for $25,000... the Cobra will surely be at least $30,000... </font>

Actually you're right. And good deal on the Z! In your position, I'd actually recommend a SC after warranty expires. I overstated the bolt on SC problems. With the sophisticated fuel management available, especially from Paxton, aftermarket SCs are reliable and make big horsepower. I mean half the Cobra guys are running blowers in order to beat NA LS1s.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Now, if I were planning on spending $30,000 (and I was not)... I would have had around 8k to add a SC to my LS1... as for the warranty issues... that's why I proposed that GM offer the dealer installed program like the started for the Grand Ams... I don't think that is totally out there in therms of possibilities

Basically... You can add a supercharger to a NA engine (liek LS1/6) but you can't add a SC to a engine that already has a SC...

I'm kind of going in circles on this one, but I hope you can see my point... </font>

Like I said you're actually right. A bolt on SC on the LS1 is actually insane HP with total drivability. I didn't used to be that way 10 years ago. Supercharging was a risky deal. But today, absolutely safe. In fact with intercooler packages, the safe boost and HP levels get to about 550RWHP in a car with stock cam and heads.

If you havn't guessed it I'm a big fan of this new Cobra. I have had about enough of turning wrenches. I just wanna turn a key http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif And I'll be honest I don't like the Z for mainly styling reasons. And I'm hoping the opposite of you that the Z returns to more upright stance sedan look. I like the Stang styling especially with rims. It appears to me that this Cobra is the styling I want with the power of a vette behind it.

But like I said, I'd be an idiot to say that supercharging an LS1 won't give you an 11 sec car that drives like a total stocker.

Let me add to my topic title:
2003.
Mustang...390hp
Camaro....0
2004.
Charger...353hp
Camaro....0
2005.
Skyline...350++
Camaro...0(?)
2006.
?

A little nut-hugging here... but I gotta say that the discussions in this forum have become so great lately... very objective, lots of views... very inteligent conversations!! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

This is probably the best I've ever seen the forum. Great job everyone... keep it coming!


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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

I think the key to good discussion is the ability to throw "political correctness"out the window..while still remaining polite.

But even though we are all GM/Chevy people that doesn't mean that GM should get a free ride here!

FREE RIDE FOR GM = LUMINAS FOR EVERYONE

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
I think the key to good discussion is the ability to throw "political correctness"out the window..while still remaining polite.

But even though we are all GM/Chevy people that doesn't mean that GM should get a free ride here!

FREE RIDE FOR GM = LUMINAS FOR EVERYONE</font>


LOL! So true!

And yet another reason why we all hope that Mustang gets better and does well! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Looks like it's gotten better and it IS going to do well.

No way I will ever buy another new or newer Ford. Ford is a company without morals and ethics. &gt;&$#%^ them to infinity.

I will wait for the Sigma F5, no matter how long it takes. Until then, classsic muscle will fill the bill for me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:
Like I said you're actually right. A bolt on SC on the LS1 is actually insane HP with total drivability. I didn't used to be that way 10 years ago. Supercharging was a risky deal. But today, absolutely safe. In fact with intercooler packages, the safe boost and HP levels get to about 550RWHP in a car with stock cam and heads.
</font>

It's my belief that any time you add a power adder to a motor that reliability and longevity are definitely in question. The LS1's seem to be living a little longer under 8-9psi of boost, probably because of the slightly lower static compression ratio. I always say it's not if it will blow, but when. How do I know.... well the hard way of course! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

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Derek M
95 Z28 M6 11.077@132.120
02 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC LB
88 Mustang LX
http://home.attbi.com/~z28sc

Well..if the Camaro were around to face off with the 2003 Cobra I wonder if it would have gotten the an LS6? I guess we'll never know...

What caught my attention was the fact that they went back to the iron block.

GM has a recall out on vettes for high oil consumption and some LS1s suffer from piston slap.

They say in Motor Trend that they suffered disasterous results with the aluminum block on the cobra.

I wonder if GM will go Iron again. They went from reverse cooling heads to regular.

------------------
1/4 mile in faster than you can say "I don't think he's stock Jim-Bob"
'93 Camaro Z28 Automatic with a ZL1 hood.

No bottle.
No blower.
383 cubic inch serving of horsepower...hold the rice please.

Thats all you need to know.
ICQ: 23984221
Gripenfelter's Homepage (http://pages.sprint.ca/Gripenfelter)

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily supported or indicative of the Government of Canada or any other Federal Employee.

Oil consumption and piston slap were piston ring issue...they have been identified and corrected. The aluminum block was irrelavent to those problems.

I think Ford's alloy block problems are more in regard to block strength.

GM went to reverse-flow cooling on the LT1 because the siamesed exhaust valves did not have sufficient cooling jackets to run high compression without knocking.

The LSI has replicated ports, which eliminated the hot spots between the previously siamesed exhaust valves, and allows adequate and unifirm heat transfer for every cylinder, without the need to go to reverse-flow cooling.

RFC is a bit more complicated, requiring stem vent lines, and special bleeding procedures.

The LS1 could still benifit from RFC, although at sub 11:1 compresion ratios, the benifit is slight. Now, and LS1 with a blower could really take advantage of RFC.

Anyone read the MT article yet? Ford says the 03 Cobra does around 110 in 1/4 mile? What's an LS1 run?

Obviously this post was made by someone that believes everything they read....might I refer you to the Super Stallion and other fallen horses. 390 hp...maybe....definitely w/ a supercharger. But this won't be a GT, this'll be the top of the line, and expect a supercharger to add another 4-6K to the price tag. As for the new vette. I've seen the motor Chevy currently calls their most likely prospect to make production. In under-developed pre-prodution form this motor was making 425hp LAST summer. Since I've been told that this 2 cam-in-the-block motor is making 475 hp in it's C6 trim. Don't fly off your rocker now and expect the 5th gen fbod to run in the 425+ hp range.......advertised. I've been wisely advised by people in "the know" that the Camaros current "underrating" will be even further exagerrated next time around to keep the insurance companies at bay. One last comment on the SC4.6 vs. next Camaro debate..if the 4.6 is only achieving lack-luster gas mileage now for its displacement, imagine it w/ an SC. As for the twin-cam pushrodder under development; 3valves per cylinder, direct, air assisted injection, and state of the art design will lend the next Chevy smallblock 34+mpg.

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Brett Downs. CFFB#85 Black 95Z28. A4 w/2.73s, CAI, 2800 Vigilante,13.05 / 104.11 mph with 1.91 60ft. Best 60':1.83...Headers,y-pipe,Mac catback just put on, times coming soon

You all made excellent points in everything you said. But the disappointing fact of the matter is that GM knew the Z06 was being upped to 405 horse. So instead of stickers and floormats for the 35th SS and Collectors edition Ram Air, why didn't they just go ahead and put in a 385 horse LS6 in them.
This way, the cars would have went out with an absolute victory, and still saved face with Vette owners. Even if a price increase would have put some of us out of reach, there is still the bragging rights behind it, plus the possibility of used cars in the years to come. I'm a GM guy at heart, but at least Ford isn't afraid to give their guys what they want, MORE POWER!! Don't get pissed at Ford, get pissed at GM for cheating us. And don't forget to pray for the 5th gen (if it is built) to be everything that was cheated from us in the last 4ths.
Andrew

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by APS95Z28:
You all made excellent points in everything you said. But the disappointing fact of the matter is that GM knew the Z06 was being upped to 405 horse. So instead of stickers and floormats for the 35th SS and Collectors edition Ram Air, why didn't they just go ahead and put in a 385 horse LS6 in them.
This way, the cars would have went out with an absolute victory, and still saved face with Vette owners. Even if a price increase would have put some of us out of reach, there is still the bragging rights behind it, plus the possibility of used cars in the years to come. I'm a GM guy at heart, but at least Ford isn't afraid to give their guys what they want, MORE POWER!! Don't get pissed at Ford, get pissed at GM for cheating us. And don't forget to pray for the 5th gen (if it is built) to be everything that was cheated from us in the last 4ths.
Andrew</font>


Red Planet addressed this issue by saying the costs were too much... because of Federal Regulations, you cannot just 'drop' a different engine in a car and call it a day...

It would have been great... but the money just wasnt there for a lame duck platform, unfortunately... http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif



------------------
Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

Sure, the Ford camp finally got the power they desired, but look at how long it has taken, and look at how long they have trailed the Camaro. The SS has gotten a power boost almost every year, since the '98 freshening, and the Z28 benefited from that also.

CJ6873/F_O_G

------------------
1968 Camaro SS (350 H.O.)
1973 Camaro Z28/RS (406)
1982 Toyota Starlet (1.8L Briggs & Straton)
1999 Silverado Z71 (5.3L/327)

"The F_O_G has risen, and with it begins the dawn of a new era."

John Coletti says Cobra MAY exceed 390hp...by the time it goes into production.

In other words...390 is conservative!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:
No doubt the Cobra's history of delivering horsepower is pretty bad. However, SVT has one mean tire smokin example of power delivered in spades, the lightning. A truck that is UNDERRATED by at least 20 hp and runs 13.8's bone stock with no traction. So if the same group of people that put that beast out were on this Cobra project, forget about beating Z28s, this thing will run nose to nose with a Z06. Now if some you fellas can't see the good in that, then you're just screwin yourselves. I for one don't hate Ford products or Chevy products or even *** crap. If that new Nissan 350Z comes out with 300hp for 25K as claimed and runs mid 13s I'd consider it too.

I'm saying 410hp stock on the '03 Cobra.
Chip,pulley,exhaust,headers = 500hp</font>
The Nissan is supposed to be over 30K. The new Cobra will not even touch the 405hp Z06(weight, aero, traction).



------------------
1977 LT
Super T-10 4 speed
355 crate
2.02 heads
Keith Black flat tops
Dynomax headers/exhaust
HOT Crane cam
and much more...

I bet a 5th Gen Camaro will be much faster than whatever F**d will be putting out then. Let them have a good time for a while until the Camaro comes back to take its place at the top again as always. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited February 07, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stangitr:

The Nissan is supposed to be over 30K. The new Cobra will not even touch the 405hp Z06(weight, aero, traction).
</font>

The 350ZX is ranging from 26-33ish, if you glance at Nissan's site

New Cobra is supposed to run ~35k. I would certainly hope the $50,000 Z06 could outrun it.



------------------
Jason

1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche
Nothing but stock. Soon to make it live up to it's name...

Oh brother... I've seen all this before over on the Ford board. Except over there it was a bunch of whiny current Cobra owners dumping over a car they feel devalues their present Cobra. Now over here it's the Chevy board's turn to tell the world WHY a $35K MSRP 390hp(underrated) Cobra that will run mid 12s stock SUCKS.

Well there are guys lurking around on BON who know as much as any Chevy insider or king of the SS. They nailed this Cobra on the head over a year ago.

400hp
iron block
4V AL heads
T56
and so on

One of these insiders took the '03 Cobra test mule for a spin and stated plainly it pulls at least as hard as a Z06 which was on hand for comparison(OK it was the 385hp version).

Furthermore, this car isn't going to shaft buyers. Today I personally know of 1 person who has preordered and bought the car for the 35K list price. And right now there are plenty of more examples showing up on the boards. This for a car that won't be available until May! What that oughtta tell you is this Cobra will sell at invoice by year end which is around $30K.

Corvette? It'll whup an LS1 vette which 5 years after it's intro you still have to pay right around list while Z06s go for over MSRP. So it boils down to comparing what will be $30K Cobra with $45K and up vettes. In the end we all just have to wait and see. But I sure hope after a $30K Cobra runs mid 12s this debate is over.

I can give my opinion on the issue... Give ford credit for making such cool cars lately, they may have had a pathetic showing from the mid nineties, but they sold a crapload of stangs and allowed them to invest the profits in newer, better models. GM wrote off the camaro, the only reason it got the LS1 was probally to offset the cost of the motor to the corvette (remember they lowered prices on the vettes when the c5 came out)Ford is putting out the mach1(with shaker coop), new cobra (supercharged), and still has the GT, and offers v6 power options(why bother.. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif). I got rid of my 93 because it was getting eaten by my g/f's LS1, I replaced it with a foxbody and paxton combo that lets me run low 12's with the stock heads, yeah my gas mileage sucks but it's not that far off from my LT1, and my car is boxy, but parts are damn cheap and underhood work is cake compared to the f-bodies. I think f-bods and mustangs are both great cars, I only wish GM brings the Trans am back with enough HP and ergonomics to make me come back home.(also build quality better be better too) Give credit where credit is deserved and to the All-Motor guys, the only thing that matters to me is who crosses the finish line first....poweradder tailights look the same as NA ones...

Why do you guys keep this arguing on about this 03' s/c'd Cobra and Mach 1, Terminator and any other gay name ford can think of, just remember..

03' s/c Cobra=390HP
93-97 s/c Z28/ss=400-430HP
98-02 s/d Z28/ss= 415-460HP

I fear no blue oval for i have seen the light!

~M&M

------------------
Today is the first day, of the end of your life..

O now bitch about how its a 350 Vs a 4.6, you ford guys always make excuses why your cars cant hang..Face the facts.WHile the camaros away the Blown stanger will play, until the 04' model returns with its big brothers 6.0 Ltr to reclaim what is rightfully Gm's

~M

------------------
Today is the first day, of the end of your life..

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
Why do you guys keep this arguing on about this 03' s/c'd Cobra and Mach 1, Terminator and any other gay name ford can think of, just remember..

03' s/c Cobra=390HP
93-97 s/c Z28/ss=400-430HP
98-02 s/d Z28/ss= 415-460HP

I fear no blue oval for i have seen the light!

~M&M

</font>

You're comparing a "modified" car to a "STOCK" one einstein http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif. Heck, you could make an econobox civic out run a vette with the right list of go fast parts. This 03 cobra is faster stock for stock and that is a fact.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">O now bitch about how its a 350 Vs a 4.6, you ford guys always make excuses why your cars cant hang..Face the facts.</font>

Can you say hypocrite? This coming from the same guy who had to resort to comparing a modified and blown f-bod to a factory blown stock mustang cause his f-bods couldn't hang. And who needs to face the facts? Lol.

04 is a little too early for a 5th gen http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif. The sooner the better, but i don't think 04 will be the year.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
Why do you guys keep this arguing on about this 03' s/c'd Cobra and Mach 1, Terminator and any other gay name ford can think of, just remember..

03' s/c Cobra=390HP
93-97 s/c Z28/ss=400-430HP
98-02 s/d Z28/ss= 415-460HP

I fear no blue oval for i have seen the light!

~M&M

</font>

I'm a Chevy guy but that's pretty silly.

How about:
'03 Cobra with nitrous=540-590hp
or
'02 Z/28 with General Electric J79 (on full after burner)=20,000hp (reserve power of the LS1 is optional).

OMG im simply stating that a supercharged stange vs camaro,the stang would loose! You have to admit, strapping on a supercharger on a week ass motor to out power a far superior motor is a pretty hoe ass way of winning the pony car war!Especially when GM is stopping production this year!!Fine Fine you want production Vs Produstion model eyy??!! FINE ZL1 02' camaro! Now bring your stang vs my production special order ZL1 LS6 SS!! When the hell did the blue oval sympathizers start speeking for the rest of the board?? Ive stood idel to this far to long..Wheres your 03 s/c Rustang to My ZL1 SS??!! Quit running your mouths, my 396 Z28 would spank that POS anyway

~M

------------------
Today is the first day, of the end of your life..

Hmmmm, '02 ZL1 Camaro = 69 units at $55,000. Gee, what a bargain.

Yea, lets compare those 69 cars at $55,000 a pop with 12,000 cars at $35,000 each. That makes sense. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Gloria
93 EB Explorer, 1000RTI
94 F150 Lightning, 116,000 miles
01 F150 Lightning, FAST !!!!

I agree with FWFSS.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
OMG im simply stating that a supercharged stange vs camaro,the stang would loose! You have to admit, strapping on a supercharger on a week ass motor to out power a far superior motor is a pretty hoe ass way of winning the pony car war!Especially when GM is stopping production this year!!Fine Fine you want production Vs Produstion model eyy??!! FINE ZL1 02' camaro! Now bring your stang vs my production special order ZL1 LS6 SS!! When the hell did the blue oval sympathizers start speeking for the rest of the board?? Ive stood idel to this far to long..Wheres your 03 s/c Rustang to My ZL1 SS??!! Quit running your mouths, my 396 Z28 would spank that POS anyway

~M

</font>

An LS6 in a camaro ain't gonna whup no '03 Cobra. Better wait for the 6.0.

i wouldnt bet on it.that zl1 will run circles around that technologically advanced 4.6. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with the theory that an LS6 powered F-body would put a hurting on that Cobra.

You ford guys are hipocrat's! Now you say 69 units to 12,000 units??!! So what there both limited production, who cares HOW limited they are in general..Have you ever looked at sales for the mustang compared to the camaro, in comparison the camaro is almost all around limited production in itself due to its low sales!

And before you start dogging the ZL1 you better start looking at stats on that bad bad ride..If you forgot ill reprint them for you right here..

2002 ZL1 LS6 Camaro:
346 C.I.D LS6/T-56 Tranny
Hp-410
T/q-415
4:10 rear gear

1/4 12.4-12 Flat

A far cry from your 12.9-12.5's that your billy bad ass cobra runs!

And you get what you pay for, thus the 55,000 dollar price tag!

Your basically paying for a faster then Zo6 camaro!! Im going to have to go with the camaro for the reason of power/prestige/rarity of that PRODUCTION ZL1.

Oh and it out handles your SUPERCOBRA too! Geesh i guess you really do get what you pay for.

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
OMG im simply stating that a supercharged stange vs camaro,the stang would loose! You have to admit, strapping on a supercharger on a week ass motor to out power a far superior motor is a pretty hoe ass way of winning the pony car war!Especially when GM is stopping production this year!!Fine Fine you want production Vs Produstion model eyy??!! FINE ZL1 02' camaro! Now bring your stang vs my production special order ZL1 LS6 SS!! When the hell did the blue oval sympathizers start speeking for the rest of the board?? Ive stood idel to this far to long..Wheres your 03 s/c Rustang to My ZL1 SS??!! Quit running your mouths, my 396 Z28 would spank that POS anyway

~M

</font>

Yet agin, another meaningless "excuse". This new cobra isn't even out yet you guys are spouting excuses left and right. My friend is ordering one and i'll cruise the local hang outs with him just to hear some of the loser excuses coming from the f-bod crowd http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif. I'll even post the top 10. But...if...when... err...

Youre' comparing a modified car to a stock one. I know you're trying to even the playing field but that's like the ford guys saying "if we could stroke the 4.6 Dohc into a 5.0 or larger or if we had a 5.7L Dohc, we'd make more power then these stock Ls-1's". Would you agree with that?

You might wanna follow your own advice and just "face the facts" http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif.

1. This cobra is factory blown and bone stock.
2. Ls-1 and blowers/boost aren't the best of friends.
3. The ls-1 wouldn't last 100k miles at 8+psi
4. you can invest 3k+ in a blower, and when the guy in the 03 cobra does the same 3k worth of upgrades, he'll still be on top. Probably making more RWHP then you're crank Hp.

I doubt most of us would even see this Zr-1 camaro in the streets. That's like comparing a limited run Cobra R against a regular production z28 or SS.

And if you guys haven't checked out the car connection website, they've got a 400hp modular 5.0 powered Lincoln Ls on the way. This will most likely be the same engine in the upcoming 5.0 BOSS. This cobra will probably go even higher with the new body and newer engines.

I join my fellow f-body brethren...

Here are a couple of points of mine:

You cannot compare a factory supercharged Cobra and a supercharged LS1 because simply, one comes with a warranty and the other does not. I thought that we're comparing stock from the showroom? If that is the case, then the new Cobra WILL be superior to the current f-body in terms of 1/4 mile acceleration (if the forecasts are correct).

However, the car isn't out yet, so let's wait until we see some ford punks behind the wheel at the 1320 before we start jumping to conclusions. The car is sweet, but its not a Vette killer either.

LS6 f-body? The new Cobra would be a good match, but I believe it would come up short to the more powerful pushrod LS6.

The Ford contingent seems to be big on the 390 hp, however, there's alot more to going fast than just having peak hp. The Cobra motor will not make the same power across the powerband that the pushrod V8 does, thats fact. Compare a dyno sheet from an LS1 and curent generation Cobra. There is a blown 97 Snake in my club, the car makes nice peak hp, but lacks in torque and avg hp over the rpm range.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Long live the F-body.

-Rich

------------------
2002 Camaro SS
35th Anniversary Coupe
Hurst, CAGS eliminator, SLP Air lid w/ K&N, Hotchkis STB
317 RWHP 329 RWTQ
1987 Monte Carlo SS 355
13.81 @ 100mph
268 RWHP 342 RWTQ

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
You ford guys are hipocrat's! Now you say 69 units to 12,000 units??!! So what there both limited production, who cares HOW limited they are in general..Have you ever looked at sales for the mustang compared to the camaro, in comparison the camaro is almost all around limited production in itself due to its low sales!

And before you start dogging the ZL1 you better start looking at stats on that bad bad ride..If you forgot ill reprint them for you right here..

2002 ZL1 LS6 Camaro:
346 C.I.D LS6/T-56 Tranny
Hp-410
T/q-415
4:10 rear gear

1/4 12.4-12 Flat

A far cry from your 12.9-12.5's that your billy bad ass cobra runs!

And you get what you pay for, thus the 55,000 dollar price tag!

Your basically paying for a faster then Zo6 camaro!! Im going to have to go with the camaro for the reason of power/prestige/rarity of that PRODUCTION ZL1.

Oh and it out handles your SUPERCOBRA too! Geesh i guess you really do get what you pay for.

~M

</font>

Lol!!! 69 whole units? 55k for a camaro? a car with about the same power as the cheaper z06 vette? can you say ripoff. This cobra is 20k less and about anybody with the cash can go to an SVT dealer and order one.

And power is only one part of the total package? what are the handling upgrades on this bad boy?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
You ford guys are hipocrat's! Now you say 69 units to 12,000 units??!! So what there both limited production, who cares HOW limited they are in general..Have you ever looked at sales for the mustang compared to the camaro, in comparison the camaro is almost all around limited production in itself due to its low sales!

And before you start dogging the ZL1 you better start looking at stats on that bad bad ride..If you forgot ill reprint them for you right here..

2002 ZL1 LS6 Camaro:
346 C.I.D LS6/T-56 Tranny
Hp-410
T/q-415
4:10 rear gear

1/4 12.4-12 Flat

A far cry from your 12.9-12.5's that your billy bad ass cobra runs!

And you get what you pay for, thus the 55,000 dollar price tag!

Your basically paying for a faster then Zo6 camaro!! Im going to have to go with the camaro for the reason of power/prestige/rarity of that PRODUCTION ZL1.

Oh and it out handles your SUPERCOBRA too! Geesh i guess you really do get what you pay for.

~M

</font>

Let's see. A Z06 weighing 3100lbs runs a 12.4@115, SO a 3500lb camaro with the same engine will run a 12.0-12.4. Yeah right. That must mean all your other claims are BS too. At best, a ZL1 will run nose to nose with a Cobra. But we'll never get to see that race cuz nobody will have a ZL1.

Nuff Said.

Rich i agree with some of your points. But let me point you to this quote here from 5.0 mag on there recent dyno test of the 03 cobra. Paul Svinicki at Pauls High performance in Jackson, Michigan ran the 03 cobra through the dyno.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">...Strapped to Paul's Chassis dyno, the supercharged 4.6 snake was capable of busting out 360rwhp. Impressive, but he was a little surprised when the guys from SVT stopped by with two '03 Cobras devoid of an exhaust system - save the stock headers - for a "what if" test. The result: 400rwhp! Will the bassani X-pipe be hot on these cars or what!

According to Paul, in stock trim "you should be able to get one in the 12's easy. 12.80's with decent conditions. And, it's a durable engine that is corked up from the factory. "What really has Paul excited is that from 1800 to more then 5,800rpm, the new supercharged Four-Valve Cobra engine has atleast '300 lb-ft of torque. Want to talk about a car that will kick you in the ass from idle to redline? We can hardly wait..</font>

If this holds true, this cobra will have one heck of a power band. 300+ lb ft of tq from 1800 rpms to 5800!!! over 300hp and 300lb ft of tq from 3000rpms to 6000!!! 360rwhp stock and 400rwhp with the exhaust removed!! How would this compare the ls-1's powerband?

And your friend with the 97 cobra must have a centrifugal blower and not a roots type blower like the cobra. The roots type builds boost right off idle which equates to good low end power and tq. No shortage of low end or power here.

[This message has been edited by RiceEating5.0 (edited April 30, 2002).]

Ok guys, enough. I'm GM through and through but this argument is dumb. Fact of the matter is that Ford is building quite a nice Cobra for '03 and we're getting NOTHING. Theoretical blown F-bodies aside, this is the world which we will live in next year. Ford is doing it from the factory, full warranty, a semi-reasonable price. Live with it.

The only BIG exception I wish to make is with this:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RiceEating5.0:
Lol!!! 69 whole units? 55k for a camaro? a car with about the same power as the cheaper z06 vette? can you say ripoff.</font>

Okay, why is it that Ford fans were busting you-know-whats over the Cobra R, which came with less power, in 300 units and after dealer markups were 70-80k, or more? What makes the ZL1 Camaro different from that car? I can sit here and use the same argument Ford guys did, notably the one in another thread..."The ZL1 is 'meaner', and rarer, a sure collectors item, and worth every penny as far as performance goes."

BTW here is the link to the ZL1 article...the car was a prototype then but I believe the actual production car is very similar (there's also a link to the company that builds it in here)

http://camaroz28.com/articles/2002zl1/index.shtml
------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

[This message has been edited by Z28Wilson (edited April 30, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
Ok guys, enough. I'm GM through and through but this argument is dumb. Fact of the matter is that Ford is building quite a nice Cobra for '03 and we're getting NOTHING. Theoretical blown F-bodies aside, this is the world which we will live in next year. Ford is doing it from the factory, full warranty, a semi-reasonable price. Live with it.

</font>

THANK YOU!!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
The only BIG exception I wish to make is with this:

Okay, why is it that Ford fans were busting you-know-whats over the Cobra R, which came with less power, in 300 units and after dealer markups were 70-80k, or more? What makes the ZL1 Camaro different from that car? I can sit here and use the same argument Ford guys did, notably the one in another thread..."The ZL1 is 'meaner', and rarer, a sure collectors item, and worth every penny as far as performance goes."

BTW here is the link to the ZL1 article...the car was a prototype then but I believe the actual production car is very similar (there's also a link to the company that builds it in here)

http://camaroz28.com/articles/2002zl1/index.shtml</font>


My point was, there is a differece between a limited run of 69 and a limited run of 6,000-12000. You can't compare the ZL-1 to a regular production Cobra. We've always compared the Cobra R's to the vettes and not z28's and SS's. That was in reply to FilledWithFurySS's posts.

And what about the 55k Zl-1? you guys were flaming the Cobra R (which had more changes to justify it's price) for it's 54k price tag. But since this zl-1 is sporting a bow-tie, it's all good now?

[This message has been edited by RiceEating5.0 (edited April 30, 2002).]

Let's end this thread by saying that BOTH the CobraR and ZL1 are jokes.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:
Let's see. A Z06 weighing 3100lbs runs a 12.4@115, SO a 3500lb camaro with the same engine will run a 12.0-12.4. Yeah right. That must mean all your other claims are BS too. At best, a ZL1 will run nose to nose with a Cobra. But we'll never get to see that race cuz nobody will have a ZL1.

Nuff Said.</font>

Sorry to burst your bubble but several have witnessed bone stock down to the tires and paper filter Z06, whith "Average joe" driving it at Maryland International Raceway run 11.99@117. Hmmmm, bad day I guess for the Ford Fact Camp.



------------------
01 SS A4 #5156 Navy Blue Metallic, FLP's,MAF ends, 3500 stall and Whisper lid. 1/4 mile 11.87@113.55 60ft (1.59) on 17in DR's.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RiceEating5.0:

My point was, there is a differece between a limited run of 69 and a limited run of 6,000-12000. You can't compare the ZL-1 to a regular production Cobra.
</font>

I agree. My purpose wasn't to compare the two. Heck, GM isn't even building the ZL1 in-house so it makes the comparison even more pointless.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
And what about the 55k Zl-1? you guys were flaming the Cobra R (which had more changes to justify it's price) for it's 54k price tag. But since this zl-1 is sporting a bow-tie, it's all good now?</font>

Actually no, I don't think the ZL1 is worth it either, UNLESS you're the ultimate Camaro nut and have that kind of cash to blow. Just the same as the R was...performance for that price? Nope. The ultimate Camaro/Mustang? Yeah, for those that love the car that much and can fork over the dough. An LS1 with some bolt-ons can reach 400 HP, so I'm in total agreement, it's not worth it.

By the way, find me a person who actually purchased an R brand new at MSRP http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif



------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBake:
Sorry to burst your bubble but several have witnessed bone stock down to the tires and paper filter Z06, whith "Average joe" driving it at Maryland International Raceway run 11.99@117. Hmmmm, bad day I guess for the Ford Fact Camp.

</font>


GODDAMN that was worthless. In about 3 months there's going to be countless eyewitness accounts of bone stock '03 Cobras running 12 flat. Let's at least use a standard of measurement here. In this case MT ran a 2002 Z06 at 12.4@115. Now let's see what MT runs a Cobra at.

I understand that the cobra is s/c'd and it comes with a warrenty, but so what...after 36,000 miles your all on your own! And for the 100,000 mile comment about s/c'd LS1's....I would love to see a 4.6 with 8LBS of Boost last more then 80,000 miles!

To end the rant i will just say this, pound for pound of boost on both motors, The Chevy V8 will pre-vail!

For us who dont have warrentys anymore, i await you at the light in your 03' Cobra with my boost on tap!

"I could crap in a box and slap a warrenty on it if you'd like, I have spare time" ~Tommy Boy~

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

FilledWithFurySS, it is a known fact that 4.6's respond better to boost then the ls-1. Just as the ls-1 responds better to nitrous then the 4.6. The ls-1 isn't exactly blower/turbo friendly. It's higher CR may have something to do with it.

Ford had engineered and built this 4.6 to reliably handle boost and to live past 100k miles at the stock 8 pounds of boost. This assuming the vehicle was properly maintained and wasn't put through excessive abuse. It goes beyond just slapping a blower and calling it a day.

After the 36k miles are up, you can purchase an extended warranty if you want the reassurance.

and boost numbers don't matter, stock for stock, dollar for dollar in upgrades, this cobra has you beat.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:

GODDAMN that was worthless. In about 3 months there's going to be countless eyewitness accounts of bone stock '03 Cobras running 12 flat. Let's at least use a standard of measurement here. In this case MT ran a 2002 Z06 at 12.4@115. Now let's see what MT runs a Cobra at.</font>

I think you are putting way too much faith in your not-yet-arrived-Cobra.

Well rice eater 5.0...fortunatly i drive an LT1, which is a little more coarse and tougher then it's LS1 counterpart! For the reply of the TECH pistons in the cobras i know all about them, and still i KNOW FOR A FACT 90% of those DAILY DRIVEN 03' s/c cobras will see shop time before there 36K is up!

I could go and buy a 02 SS through a S/c on it and when the probs start, yank the damn S/c and return the car back to stock and take her in! Dont tell me about this stupid ass warrenty im sick of hearing it!

And Mod for Mod the Cobra responds better??!! WTF man you really need to do your homework, the LS1 is EXTREMELY mod friendly as the Cobra(98-02) are kinda retarded to the HP game

Study then talk, i get sick of arguing, when i know im right

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

As a Chevy enthusiast..I couldn't be more thrilled about all these upcoming high performance Fords.

Yes you heard right!!

Nothing focuses the mind more than a competitor about to eat your lunch....or rather..in this case, actually eating it.

BRING IT ON!!!

I want to see even more hipo Fords and Mopar...how's your Hemi coming along?

GM. Is your mind focused yet?

Please don't compare the ZO6 to the new Cobra. It may run close in acceleration, but the build quality on the the C5 have won many awards. You get what you pay for. My 97 with 40,000 miles is as solid as the day it was built. The new ZO6s' are a stock .99 to 1 g car on the skidpad and C&D went over 70mph in the slalom! Great numbers for the price! But, I'm glad they're building this car, the future should be fun! More competition is a GOOD thing! Later

------------------
JC
97 Blown C5 Vette
CNC Stage 2 heads/Blower cam etc

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
As a Chevy enthusiast..I couldn't be more thrilled about all these upcoming high performance Fords.

Yes you heard right!!

Nothing focuses the mind more than a competitor about to eat your lunch....or rather..in this case, actually eating it.

BRING IT ON!!!

I want to see even more hipo Fords and Mopar...how's your Hemi coming along?

GM. Is your mind focused yet?</font>

Get this. The 353ci Hemi is going debut later this year in the Ram at 345hp. That's a motor with cam and tuning for low end torque. Whenever they uncork that thing in a performance car it's going well beyond 400.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
Well rice eater 5.0...fortunatly i drive an LT1, which is a little more coarse and tougher then it's LS1 counterpart! For the reply of the TECH pistons in the cobras i know all about them, and still i KNOW FOR A FACT 90% of those DAILY DRIVEN 03' s/c cobras will see shop time before there 36K is up!

I could go and buy a 02 SS through a S/c on it and when the probs start, yank the damn S/c and return the car back to stock and take her in! Dont tell me about this stupid ass warrenty im sick of hearing it!

And Mod for Mod the Cobra responds better??!! WTF man you really need to do your homework, the LS1 is EXTREMELY mod friendly as the Cobra(98-02) are kinda retarded to the HP game

Study then talk, i get sick of arguing, when i know im right

~M

</font>

Study? you aren't anywhere near right. As always, you're "biased" opinions are wrong. Where did i ever mention the 98-03 cobra? comprehension problems? i was talking about the 03 cobra. Are you familiar with the lightning? forced induced engines? pulley, exhaust, custom chip, maf, etc...cheap mods that give you big gains. Spend $1000 on bolts ons on the ls-1 and 1000 on this cobra or similar engine (like the lightning) and watch the power gain difference. Engines with boost are just easier to get gains out of.

Follow your own advice and learn your stuff. If half the stuff you posted wasn't biased garbage, we wouldn't be arguing http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.

How hard is to acknowledge this cobra and move on? you've made nothing but excuses to date.

Ohh well, this argument ends here. No point in talking to a brick wall or beating a dead horse.

My comments are not Biased! Are you blind to see my point here??!! Im simply saying that throwing a supercharger on a week ass motor(4.6) to outperform the superior LS1, is a hoe ass way of winning the pony car war! You act like s/c'ing these 4.6's is a new idea??!! Mustangs have been doing it since 94 when this slow ass generation of mustang was launched(5.0 Mind you though), no one praised them because it was a cheap way out..But alas the mustang owners became sick of loosing to our faster, more advanced cars!! I do not praise Ford for strapping on a blower, i see it as a cowards way out, because ford is having a hard time drawing any more power out of there aging 4.6, Like i beleive someone said earlier in this post---"You can strap **** loads of boost to a civic and kill a viper, but that doesnt take skill at all!".N/a vs N/a Camaro & Cobra--Camaro Wins...S/c camaro Vs S/c Mustang---Camaro Wins!! Im not impressed with strapping a blower on to beat a dead dog, i look at it as cowardly!!

But like i said before Bring you 03' Cobra to my 396 C.i.d LT1 this summer, then we'll talk!

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

Coward way? cheating? hey a win is a win and Hp is Hp no matter how you look at it. You can check your excuses at the door. The mustang didn't need a blown 4.6 to win this war, they already have. No f-bod for 03 from GM, while Ford is offering 4 different version of the mustang.

As for the civic vs viper, an modified econobox 1.8L putting the smack down on a 8.0L v10 doesn't impress you? It doesn't take skill? is the civic guy cheating? keep telling yourself that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RiceEating5.0:
Study? you aren't anywhere near right. As always, you're "biased" opinions are wrong. Where did i ever mention the 98-03 cobra? comprehension problems? i was talking about the 03 cobra. Are you familiar with the lightning? forced induced engines? pulley, exhaust, custom chip, maf, etc...cheap mods that give you big gains. Spend $1000 on bolts ons on the ls-1 and 1000 on this cobra or similar engine (like the lightning) and watch the power gain difference. Engines with boost are just easier to get gains out of.

Follow your own advice and learn your stuff. If half the stuff you posted wasn't biased garbage, we wouldn't be arguing http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.

How hard is to acknowledge this cobra and move on? you've made nothing but excuses to date.

Ohh well, this argument ends here. No point in talking to a brick wall or beating a dead horse. </font>

My God guys!!!!

For a $1000 dollars in mods to each car, the Cobra will see more hp increase than the LS1. I own a LS1 now, and used to have a 96 Cobra, so I know! I am actually kinda pissed that there isn't much that can be done to the LS1 b/c to get any good number I'd completely void my warranty. If you need me to go into specifics I will.

The 4.6's not reliable??? Whoever says this has no clue and shouldn't say anything. They are the best damn engines Ford has ever made and they easily go past 100kmi. You are probably used to hearing some Joe Shmo blew up his engine at Englishtown b/c he broke loose or missed a gear or just plainly took his engine beyond all limits.

96-01 Cobra engines respond exceptionally well to SC's, better than LS1 by far. Their only problem is high compression and the fact that the engines were built without any intent on having any of them supercharged. What happens, after time and stress of racing and the such with high boot, they pop!

The new blocks are built with intent of them being supercharged and handling the boost. They will be as reliable as any other engine out there.

Oh, you cant supercharge something and not have a dealer notice it. They are all trained on finding tell tale signs that the car was supercharged. If they find anything, oh, sorry, we found this mark for this part of the supercharger you had on the car, your warranty is now expired. You owe a few grand for labor and parts.


Unless you are rich and have cash to throw around relentlessly, a warranty is everything on a new car!

OMFG, fine no more excuses right?? Check that bull **** at the door right?? Fine then here it is, pound for pound of boost on either MOTOR STOCK the LS1/LT1 wins! My 396 LT1 vs your 03' Cobra, my Z28 WINS!! Now dont make excuses because horsepower is horsepower, and my freind my Z28 has it in abundance!!

No excuses anymore 5.0, you said it yourself Hp for HP!

But the stang does win the year by year war because GM has its thumb up its ass right now for sure

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

damn those porsche turbos!!i never knew turbos and superchargers were considered cheating!!cowardly germans with their near fastest production car on earth,damn those AMG mercedes!!cowards!!and now we have the cobra,doesn't cowardly ford know we have to hold new cars to '60s standards!!!muscle cars didn't supercharge back then!!!what is ford thinking,when the hell are we going back to drum brakes???!!!these 4-wheel discs are just cheating!!six speed???HA!!sure these new cars are faster,give me two extra gears and i'd be faster too,cowards!!
sayyyyyy..doesn't ram air add power,BASTARDS!!!PONTIAC HAS BEEN CHEATING SINCE THE '60S!!!!!!!!!!!SS camaro?cheater.mach i mustang with shaker.cheater.
what the deal the viper??that thing's got a freakin huge engine!!!!!that can't be fair!!!freakin dodge cowards,too scared to play in the V-8 world.
detect any scarcasm?

------------------
'99 Mustang coupe
'97 Miata

Talk about cheating....it has come to my attention that the Z06 has a special http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif transmission with STEEPER and more tightly spaced to keep the revs up!

...also I have heard that some Japanese and European manufacturers are actually varying their cam timing (some of them infinitely!!), to get more power and lower emissions.

When will all of these cheating bastards stop!

I dont mean it like that, im simply saying its a pretty week ass way of winning the dwindling pony car war..

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

hey,hey,hey...GM started all this...what with putting a bigger engine in their pony car..WHAT THE HELL!!!talk about scared,a corvette engine in a pony car???freakin cowards!!how do we compete with that???!!!!what would you expect little ole ford to do,you gotta fight fire with fire.freakin GM cowards,fight us small displacement to small displacement!!chickens.

------------------
'99 Mustang coupe
'97 Miata

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
OMFG, fine no more excuses right?? Check that bull **** at the door right?? Fine then here it is, pound for pound of boost on either MOTOR STOCK the LS1/LT1 wins! My 396 LT1 vs your 03' Cobra, my Z28 WINS!! Now dont make excuses because horsepower is horsepower, and my freind my Z28 has it in abundance!!

No excuses anymore 5.0, you said it yourself Hp for HP!

But the stang does win the year by year war because GM has its thumb up its ass right now for sure

~M

</font>

"pound for pound of boost" is a BS excuse.

Your 396 will get smoked by any '03 with under a $1K of mods (chip,pulley,exhaust)

Go home while you're behind bub.

Cheating?? What about those TURBO Buick GNs. Man that was cheating if I ever saw it. Couldn't get the power out of the V6 engine so they HAD to throw a turbo on it. Oh well, at least we know that car went down in automotive history as a weak ass attempt to bring back the Musclecar. Don't even get me started on those lame Syclones and Typhoons. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5

All this talk about putting $1000.00 into each car makes me laugh! I'll believe the performance when we see PRODUCTION cars running. I nearly purchased a 99 Cobra and I'm so glad that I didn't.

My 1997 F150 was the worst new vehicle I have ever owned. Within the first 2 1/2 years and 28,000 miles the truck had been painted 3 times because of rust, all 4 alluminum wheels had been replaced, the winshield wipers quit working, the drivers side window was fixed 3 times and the passenger window was fixed once, the drivers side door had a tear in the sheet metal and the rear sliding window leaked twice. The "straw" to break the "camel's back" was when I was getting TERRIBLE piston slap and Ford wouldn't do anything about it. Ford told the dealership that it was normal for the 4.6 engine in the truck to do this. We now know otherwise.

Because of all my problems with my Ford (and the 99 Cobra fiasco) I purchase a 2000 Camaro SS and a 2000 Impala LS. The ONLY problem I have had with either car is the front rotor problem on the Camaro which my dealer has fixed every time with no hesitation.

For me the problem wasn't so much the fact that I had problems with my Ford it was the way Ford Motor Company dealt with the problems. It's no wonder market share is changing.

Don't get me wrong...I'd be more than pleased to see that the Cobra finally gets the rated HP that Ford claims. Mustang enthusiast deserve it! However, lets see what the production Cobras run...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:

Your 396 will get smoked by any '03 with under a $1K of mods (chip,pulley,exhaust)
</font>

Ok this is a little presumptuous. I've seen N/A 396 F-bodies running in the 10's...or better. All depends on how wild he's getting.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BigBlueCruiser:
"pound for pound of boost" is a BS excuse.

Your 396 will get smoked by any '03 with under a $1K of mods (chip,pulley,exhaust)

Go home while you're behind bub.</font>


Here is the fair way to put it,

2001 TA vs 2001 Cobra all stock, no ram air.

8psi or whatever the cobra is run at normally (save boosts), probably more like 6psi.

Base horsepower test on each car.

Throw on S-trim blower to each car.
New dyno test with the blowers on.

Now try a different style blower. Do same test.

Now increase the boost and see how much horses you get btw the two cars.

Now if anyone is bored enough to research this go ahead and prove both sides of the argument.

But I bet the cobra will win the category of largest increase in hp.

For anyone that didn't know this, Ford is using the pre-fix 99 exhaust. They have to in order to keep noise levels down. Change this exhaust out, and ooooooh sound so nice........!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like the old 5.0's. And a hellovalot a horsepower freed up too.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by WERM:
Cheating?? What about those TURBO Buick GNs. Man that was cheating if I ever saw it. Couldn't get the power out of the V6 engine so they HAD to throw a turbo on it. Oh well, at least we know that car went down in automotive history as a weak ass attempt to bring back the Musclecar. Don't even get me started on those lame Syclones and Typhoons. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

</font>


Ha ha LOL. Dont forget about them rotary engine cars with turbos. My god, RX7's gotta be cheating too. The new Mitsu being imprted, not fair.

Oh, and can the engines from the italian cars like the Diablo be considered enignes? I mean all that techno induced junk on top of the block has to be outlawed. God forbid that car go 220mph and still get 15mpg.

He he., me sarcastic too.

My last Z28 with the same motor as im buiding now did 11.230, so your little cobra dont scare me much at all! And for the repetitive "Cheating" Comments..I dont see a musclecar as a muscle car unless it comes with a nice N/a aspirated V8 from the factory...But alas im old fashioned

~M

------------------
1993 Z28:

Dax's SPECIAL

-6 speed
-!!T-top!! Conversion
-Yanked motor in the process of becoming a 396 Beast!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FilledWithFurySS:
My 396 LT1 vs your 03' Cobra, my Z28 WINS!! Now dont make excuses because horsepower is horsepower, and my freind my Z28 has it in abundance!!
</font>

That's nice. So your 396 came from the factory then like the blower on the 03 cobra then? Gotta be if it has any relevance to power in NEW cars. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif
Yeah! Damn those turbo Porches! Especially that GT2! That's a cop out way to create a supercar!
I compliment Ford on the new Cobra. The blower was probably the easiest route possible to get the power they needed. To move up in displacement they'd have to shove in the 5.4 from the Cobra R but then again I'm sure there was an economic reason why this wasn't possible. Wasn't some modification needed to the car to have it fit in with the taller deck height? Then if they had to move to an off the shelf higher displacement engine, they'd have to use the 6.0 v10 or the 6.8 v12 (not sure about those numbers). I doubt those would fit under the hood anyways. A blower was probably the easiest, most economic route to give lots of cheap power without having a super engine at a $20,000 option. There'd be less R&D cost to it and would be easier to smog certify. For the resources Ford has, this is by far the best route. To make it Z06 fast they'd need around 450 hp or so to make up for the heavyness of the car. 385 from the 5.4 cobra R isn't going to cut it.

Well, lets look at the 2002 GMMG Camaro ZL1.. you notice it's NOT a Chevrolet Camaro.. where the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra R was from Ford..

Also the 2003 Cobra seems to be making quite abit more power than 390, so yeah I think we can compare it to the aftermarket tuner car here..(2002 GMMG Camaro ZL1)

the zl1 is the same motor as whats in a zo6.just because its not put together by GM doesnt mean its not a camaro.its a GM designed motor and powertrain.but of course ford builds all of their cars right. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

LOL M*****g dudes actually get a fast car or 2 and thats all they wanna talk about even though they've been getting beat so many years by the F-Body. When/if the 5th Gen is released M*****g dudes, you can expect more of the same from the F-Body as usual. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

It sounds like the 60's and 70's are back when it comes to horse power wars...its gonna be an interesting next 5 or so years http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif from gm, ford and dodge

------------------
1988 Camaro IROC-Z
305 ci Tuned Port 700R4
3"Exhaust/Flowmaster 80 series muffler/Dynomax high flow cat
hypertech chip/k&n filers
"Theres no replacement for displacement"
SAVE THE F-BODY!!!!
"-MIDNIGHT Cruisers-"
www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html)

Let's agree that anyone can do anything to any car if they have any excess money lying around and can beat any other car that comes off any showroom of any other company, even though origionally said car is no longer made.

Better? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SPYK:
...and the Bullit is a Joke..Its a Gt with a K&N and some styling ques.. nice but ..performance..
</font>

Uh... it included the items below. Last I heard, brake and suspension modifications also affect vehicle performance. The cars do make the 270-275HP that was originally claimed. If you think it's a joke, let's talk about the GM tape and stripe specials (take your pick Camaro/Firebird/Corvette/etc.) Oh, and there's no K&N. If you are going to talk smack and or trash other cars, at least take some time to educate yourself about them first.

At least someone is still making low cost RWD performance cars.

------------------------------------------
Exterior Appearance:

Rocker moldings, spoiler delete, side scoop delete, fog lamp delete, BULLITT decklid emblem, aluminum fuel filler door, blackened corral in front grill. Revised rear quarter windows and 'C' Pillar molding.

Interior Appearance:

Cobra seats with 60's style stitching, unique instrument cluster, aluminum sill plates, door lock soldiers, shifter, shifter trim ring, and pedals.

Handling/Suspension:

Cobra Front and rear brakes with 'Tickford' Red painted calipers. Lower/Stiffer Suspension - Approx 3/4" lower w/ higher rate springs and new shocks and struts. Larger Diameter stabilizer bars. 17" Torque Thrust 'D' Style wheels with 245/45ZR17 performance tires. Frame Rail Connectors.

Powertrain:

Aluminum intake manifold, cobra throttle body, revised pulley ratios, cobra windage tray, TR3650 5-Speed Transmission, 3.27 rear axle, Beveled Exhaust Tips

------------------
If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SPYK:
Lutz and his boys had planned a limited run for SS/WS^ and Firehawks..and the 02Ls6.. but the bean counter pulled that idea.. its not like they have a shortage of Ls6's or a fit .or matchup problem with the trany.. at very Least Lutz was pushing for the 01 Ls6 in a 03 SS/WS6

</font>

"Lutz and his boys", weren't even around when they were planning the '02.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SPYK:
The Super Coupe never had more thn 220..
</font>

WRONG! The 1994 and 1995 Thunderbird Supercoupe had 230 horsepower, and if I'm not mistaken so did the 93. The 89-92 (or 93?) had 210, but SC's claim to fame was torque, which it always had in overabundance.

The 1st SC's made early in the production cycle had problems with it's crankshaft & seals, which was cured mid-year by going to forged crankshaft. The 94 & 95 models had 230 horsepower, done by switching to an upgrated Eaton supercharger. To keep Mustang as top dog, the 94 & 95 model had a smaller pulley than the earlier editions.

Alot of the owners who actually modified their Supercoupes (me included) swapped for the newer blower & used the older model pulley. Realisticly, it produced about 240-245 this way, & out accelerated 5.0 Mustangs that weren't hevily modified.

Then there were simple things like replacing that restrictive resonitator under the transmission with a Y pipe, placing a small spacer between the supercharger intake & the induction pipe.

www.sccoa.com (http://www.sccoa.com) (my old hangout before my Z28) has every bit of info you may ever want to know about those cars.

God, I get excited talking about them. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif