Brand loyalty among Camaro buyers

I came across an interesting quote in a GM dealer rag.
It says: "Camaro owners are very brand loyal" says Scott Settlemire, assistant brand manager Camaro. "Ninety percent of Camaro owners buy GM cars as their second vehicle. This Camaro Legends Tour is a way for dealers to reach these owners"

My thoughts. Since GM had known there would be no more Firebird, is that why there is no Firebird Legends Tour?

I totally believe that 90 percent of Camaro owners are loyal. However, personally I think Firebird/Pontiac owners are even MORE brand loyal than that! I would like to see those numbers.

Anyway, did Pontiac Motor Division think about brand loyalty among Poncho nuts when they cancelled the Firebird? I dont think they did, and I think Pontiac will lose market share cuz of it.

For my part, I bought a Buick Regal GS for my wife recently instead of the better looking GTP, just as a way to say thanks to Pontiac. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif (Now I wish I would have got her a Yugo, but that is a different story.)

I no longer want to go to a Pontiac showroom for any reason. It would just make me mad.

However, I still am still looking for a nice 2nd gen 70-73 Bird for my next car, and would not hesitate to buy a 70 GTO convertible or a 69 Firebird if I came across a cheap one either. Just no more new Pontiacs for me till the FIREBIRD comes back. The Vibe wont cut it, sorry.

The possible ?GTO? turbo six banger wont do it for me either, tho I realize some will like it. Example: My neighbor has a MarkIV Supra that has a lot of mods, but it sounds almost EXACTLY like another neighbors fart piped Neon. The sound of the car is important to me and I have never heard a six popper that sounded good. V8s for me thanks.



[This message has been edited by Reno Leigh (edited December 29, 2001).]

Very true. And as good as a 5th gen sounds, there won't be a Pontiac (so far), which just makes me sad. The 5th gen Camaro will have to be a knockout for me to buy it. It just depends on what they come up with. But I'd rather have a Pontiac.

I would consider a I6 Turbo, but only because I'd keep my Formula. As a replacement, no way. But I'd rather have a V8.

So that leaves me with option C, pretty much the same as yours; find a 1st or 2nd gen 'Bird. Thats what I'm leaning towards, and they are cheaper anyways. So my next car will probably be a Pontiac, with a V8.

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1994 Formula A4, 3.23
Flowmaster, K&N FIPK, MAC Headers, Off-Road Pipe
14.032 @ 99 - 2.091 60'
The 'Bird (http://members.9cy.com/stevil/index.html)
"Push the seat back a little lower, watch light bend in the blower."

There is great loyalty with Camaro owners...but boy..I've seen alot of them (even really loyal ones)..trade their Camaros in for something else..and it's not just to get a bigger rear seat. They were tired of poor fit and finish..too many rattles.. old chassis etc.

But hey...were all here to make sure the 5th gen turns out to be awesome..and make mine a "REAL" Z/28!

2nd gen Firebird has been mentioned alot, so I thought Id show this again:
Its a 5th gen Firebird concept drawing by Daniel Kuhlmeyer. He based it of the second generations styling theme.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/dan/2005transam.html

--Ted krygier
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/

While I think that a lot of Firebird owners owna nother Pontiac, I really doubt it is equal to or more than Camaro owners owning another Chevy... if for no other reason, except the fact that there are so many more Chevy's (including trucks) to choose from...

BUT, I think this is one reason why Chevy & Pontiac should always have an F-Car... these owners almost always buy another GM product.


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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

Reno - Note that the quote was "ninety percent of Camaro owners buy GM cars as their second vehicle". So you fit, so far, in the 90%. I agree with you though to a point about the likely effects if no V8 sports/muscle car follows the 4gen Firebird. I really think Pontiac needs a V8 halo car to keep their brand identity alive. And if they don't have that identity, can they still survive? If they intend to be more like BMW as said recently by Lutz, they still need one. I for one sincerely hope Chevy doesn't become the sole performance division at GM (although I'd still buy a 5gen Camaro if they did). I doubt very much I would buy a turbo-6 GTO. No matter how hot a next-gen Grand Prix or GTO might be with less than eight cylinders, I will always want a V8 - at least until hi-performance AWD hybrids are cheap (probably 10-15 years from now at least). Who knows, maybe they'll have a V8 hybrid by then!

Z284ever - You must be speaking of the older (non-4gen) Fbodies. Because my 99 Formula has state-of-the-art crashworthiness, with 4/5 driver/pasgr stars from NHTSA tests (better than my 98 Grand Prix BTW!). And nary a squeak to be found. I'm growing tired of this myth about the current Camaro/Firebird's "crummy archaic chassis" (and I'm not saying that was your claim BTW). Obviously there are better chassis out there - Z06, Impala, BMW, etc. And IRS would be nice too if cost-effective - that's another debate. But for the price, the current FBody remains a great performance value, right down to its "archaic" chassis that can put many/most regular sedans/coupes to shame on a curvy road, probably even with the base engine. If it has an LS1 you'd better have at least a Cobra or $8-10K more than a base Z28 (at $22K) to think about keeping up.

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NBM 99Formula, DF Lid, K&N, SLP WS6 Takeoff Muffler (http://www.mwshowgo.com/Formula99/index.htm) | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, transcooler (http://www.mwshowgo.com/GTPrix/index.htm)
| Dark Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, stock (http://www.mwshowgo.com/red90iroc/index.htm)

BigDarknFast..sorry buddy.. I am talking about the 4th gen. It does have good crashworthiness and the live rear axle and relatively flex- prone chassis have been developed to the max....but man oh man oh man does it need updating.

Also, I'd pay the premium you mentioned for a "REAL" 5th gen Z/28.

Brand loyalty, I've been preaching that ever since i came to this site and the 5th Gen forum. I am of perfect example, my first car, a '78 Z/28. I've owned many F-bodies since and drive all GM vehicles now.
The F-body is an exellent entry level performance car and young people are lured to them by the thousands every year.
GM will suffer greatly just by the Camaro being gone for a couple of years. And it doesn't look good for Pontiac right now. They act like they want the Firebird to just go away so they can shove horrible cars like the azztek down the publics throats.
With no Firebird in the line-up what do they have to lure young people to Pontiac? Nothing.


Cars currently own:

-2000 Ram Air T/A
-92 Firebird
-79 Z/28
-72 Chevy Pickup, Restored
-85 Chevy Nova FWD, commuter car
-82 Chevy S-10.

Cars previously owned:
-99 Z/71 Pickup
-66 GTO
-72 Olds Cutlass Supreme
-75 Monte Carlo
-78 Z/28
-Different 79 Z/28

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THE Z-MAN

[This message has been edited by THE Z-MAN (edited December 30, 2001).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by !!!TED!!!:
2nd gen Firebird has been mentioned alot, so I thought Id show this again:
Its a 5th gen Firebird concept drawing by Daniel Kuhlmeyer. He based it of the second generations styling theme.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/dan/2005transam.html

--Ted krygier
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/

</font>


Ted, thanks for posting that. Not bad. I would like it a lot better tho if it had round headlights, since it is trying for the 70-73 look, and they had round headlights. They could be smaller than the original 70's, but still should be round. The triangular headlights dont look right to me.

I would also change the rear tailights, making them go all the way across instead of being broken up in the middle. Firebirds and Pontiacs have always had nice tailights, from 1965 on up anyways.

I cant help but feel we are wasting our time tho discussing how a 5th gen Firebird should look. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
While I think that a lot of Firebird owners owna nother Pontiac, I really doubt it is equal to or more than Camaro owners owning another Chevy... BUT, I think this is one reason why Chevy & Pontiac should always have an F-Car... these owners almost always buy another GM product.
</font>

I politely disagree Darth, the Pontiac people I know are pretty rabid fans...

Lets take my family. My gramps was die hard Pontiac. He bought dozens of them new in his lifetime. New ones every year for himself and the wife, and all his company cars were new Pontiacs every year, he made sure of that. Shop trucks were Chevys and GMCs, since Pontiac has not made a truck since the late 30s I believe.

So anyway, my dad was a Pontiac guy then too, and myself and my brother and sister also have preferred Pontiacs. My sisters first car was a Trans Am. My Brothers first car was a Formula, and so on. I have now only a 92 Trans Am, I have not had a Camaro since my 93 Z28. But My first car was a slammed Chevy stepside, and I have no problem buying a Camaro, even if there is no F5 Firebird. I have Chevy Trucks now too.

Anyway, the original quote by Scott was that Camaro buyers buy 90 percent GM cars. I just take that further, and not only do Firebird buyers buy 90 percent GM, it is my impression that most of the Firebird owners stay strictly within the PONTIAC family, only straying to GMs other divisions when they need a truck.

Pontiac people just seemed to me as extra loyal. They like how Pontiacs looked. Cant speak for future Pontiacs tho, or future buyers. Pontiac seems to be lost....

[This message has been edited by Reno Leigh (edited December 30, 2001).]

I guess i am the odd man out,i owned 2 mustangs previously(86 GT and 88 5.0 hb).The reason i bought my first(97 SS with a 2002 SS on order)camaro(my first car was a 77 Trans-Am)is because it was such a superior car performance wise,compare the 94 Mustang and the 94 Camaro.
I have no brand loyalty,i will buy whichever car is better and the camaro is the better car.


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86 T-Type
2002 SS (arrives march or april)

Z284ever - I do agree with you on some points. The live rear axle has been splendidly refined (maybe that's a reason why the 2002 GMC Envoy, recently named Motor Trend 2002 SUV of the Year, also has a live rear axle). And there is no doubt the chassis can benefit from an update, or maybe an all-new one like Sigma should be used. I'd like to see a longer wheelbase too and a third door like on the Saturn SC. My point though was, the current chassis is a great bargain for someone seeking high performance on a budget. Fit-n-finish? I have not seen the quality problems on my Formula so feared and lamented by some. And if I did run across an "unequal panel gap" frankly I wouldn't give a hoot. I've got the Power... under the hood.

Z-Man - I don't think it will hurt GM market share much if the Camaro is only gone for a year or two. If targeting 2005, they will likely have a concept at NAIAS 2003 and a production-intent version at NAIAS 2004. So people will know what's coming. If it makes 2005, that will be just in time to snare 2002 lessees and chevy buyers with SSR-remorse.

As for young people the Vibe will probably be a real hit with them. The question though is, what does that Vibe owner aspire to as he/she ages? With no V8 halo car like the Trans Am, Pontiac might steadily lose market share as the buyers age. The average age now of V8 FBody buyers is 35-40. People in this age bracket are more likely to have more than one car, or directly influence those in their family by cosigning on loans. This is where the loyalty comes in, or goes away, depending on what Pontiac can put out. I hope Pontiac stops treating V8's like an unwanted stepchild. If they reject the V8 it will put the brand in jeopardy. BTW Z-Man - nice fleet of cars. I used to have a K5 Blazer. What do you think of the K5 concept Chevy had at NAIAS 2001?

Pontiac needs a leader like RedPlanet!!!!

Mass....

I'm like you. I just buy what I like..no matter who makes it; 'Benz, Toyota, Ford, DC, GM, Lexus, and so on.

David
'67 Camaro
'97 E320 Ragtop
'99 Pontiac Montana
'02 SLK320

My Garage (http://www.tunetimeracing.com/benz3.jpg)

[This message has been edited by 67LT1 (edited December 30, 2001).]

BigDarknFast- True the current F-body is a bargain..(if you don't count 30-35K for the gingerbread on an SS)..but what you get for that price is a "motor in a box".

While this concept is appealing for a bench seat Road Runner(I know Mopar) or a really fast strippo Nova...the Camaro and especially the Z/28 should be a whole lot more. It's about style and image and yes...even sophistication.

I want a "REAL" Z/28!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Reno Leigh:
I politely disagree Darth, the Pontiac people I know are pretty rabid fans...

Lets take my family. My gramps was die hard Pontiac. He bought dozens of them new in his lifetime. New ones every year for himself and the wife, and all his company cars were new Pontiacs every year, he made sure of that. Shop trucks were Chevys and GMCs, since Pontiac has not made a truck since the late 30s I believe.

So anyway, my dad was a Pontiac guy then too, and myself and my brother and sister also have preferred Pontiacs. My sisters first car was a Trans Am. My Brothers first car was a Formula, and so on. I have now only a 92 Trans Am, I have not had a Camaro since my 93 Z28. But My first car was a slammed Chevy stepside, and I have no problem buying a Camaro, even if there is no F5 Firebird. I have Chevy Trucks now too.

Anyway, the original quote by Scott was that Camaro buyers buy 90 percent GM cars. I just take that further, and not only do Firebird buyers buy 90 percent GM, it is my impression that most of the Firebird owners stay strictly within the PONTIAC family, only straying to GMs other divisions when they need a truck.

Pontiac people just seemed to me as extra loyal. They like how Pontiacs looked. Cant speak for future Pontiacs tho, or future buyers. Pontiac seems to be lost....

[This message has been edited by Reno Leigh (edited December 30, 2001).]</font>

That's cool. I have owned nothing but GM myself. The way I took it was that Camaro people bought more Chevy's (Firebird bought Pontiac) rather than crossing over the whole GM brand world... Since Pontiac has notrucks, I figured it would be almost impossible for Pontiac to hold that number, especially in today's market...

But, yes, I do agree with you that Firebird owners would be just as loyal to GM as Camaro owners... but I think for some types of vehicles (basically trucks and SUV's) that Firebird owners are pretty much forced out of the Pontiac brand to fill those needs...



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Darth Xed
1999 Camaro Z28
LS-1 6 Speed
Mods: Borla Cat-Back; Bridgestone Potenza RE730's; MTI Air Lid; Holley Power Shot; Flux-Capacitor

I guess I'm one of these Pontiac owners that aren't terrribly brand loyal. I'm more of an generic F-body owner, meaning either one is fine with me, depending on the year. I previously had a '92 Camaro, and when I was looking for a new one, it really only came down to styling, since the performance between the two were identical. Not being brand loyal, it afforded me the luxury of comparing both models w/ an open mind. For ME, the T/A was too gaudy, the Z/28 just a little too plain (too similar to the base car). It came down to the perfectly balanced look of the SS, or the Formula, w/ it's more sculpted styling (although a WS-6 option on the Formula would have made it a hands down winner). I went with the Formula because it had the same visual impact (for me) and was 3-4K less than the SS. Plus the fact that the Formula is a much rarer car, I guess makes it kind of nice.

I also stay w/in the GM family for my other car as well. Part of the reason is that we get the GM employee discount, but I would buy GM anyway. My wife drives a Buick Regal LS, and it's a fine car (oddly enough, I always thought it was bigger, but upon inspection the other day, it's the same size as the Formula!).

I've previously owned a Mustang GT, and a 280ZX, to go along w/ my 78 Firebird, and 92 Camaro, and the F-bodies just suit me to a tee, so I imagine that I'll keep buying them as long as they make them. So in a sense, I'm brand loyal to the F-body. But certainly nothing in the Pontiac lineup excites me (except the GTP to some extent), so until they come out w/ another V-8 halo car for me to consider, I'll be wearing a bowtie from here on http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif.

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2001 Formula
SLP Subframes and STB, !CAGS, Flowmaster 80 Series, Kirban Kwik 6, Direct Flow lid, Holley Powershot, FRA

Brand loyalty? Ha! That's the most over-rated marketing concept ever conceived.

Why buy from the same brand again if they don't offer what you want? I buy from whichever brand makes the car I like best when I happen to be in the market. The fact that I own two Pontiacs is merely a coincidence. I love my Fiero, but if GM did not offer the WS6 I probably would not have bought a GM product last month when I got my WS6.

All else being equal, I'll prefer to buy American, but if Toyota makes a car I like better the next time I'm in the market (unlikely) then I'll buy the Toyota. Are you listening GM?

z284ever - don't know where your prices are from, but from what I can tell a 2002 SS stickers at $28,395 and invoices for $25,897 to start. Practically anyone can get one now for at or near invoice - if not below (it's not T-Top season anymore). I cannot agree it's just a "motor in a box". Not with T-tops, great handling, crashworthiness and fuel economy, and I believe also a healthy dose of distinctive racing heritage on both the strip and the track. I think the Camaro is already plenty sophisticated, and want it to remain the great bargain it is. GM please don't make it into a "BMW wannabe".

quote from CLEAN:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">For ME, the T/A was too gaudy, the Z/28 just a little too plain (too similar to the base car). It came down to the perfectly balanced look of the SS, or the Formula, w/ it's more sculpted styling (although a WS-6 option on the Formula would have made it a hands down winner). I went with the Formula because it had the same visual impact (for me) and was 3-4K less than the SS. </font>

I couldn't believe when I read this - it's exactly the decision process I went through in choosing my Formula! I agree with CLEAN. The only difference for me was I did have the option of ordering a WS6 Formula in 99, but couldn't afford it. For anyone looking for more "sophisticated" or distinctive styling than a Camaro, they can still get a Formula!

BigDarknFast- Sounds like you've already got your car...but I'm still waiting for mine.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

I've own a series of fox bodied 5.0 Mustangs, and a T-Bird Supercoupe w/ 5 speed. I went Camaro when time came to replace the Bird because I was extremely disappointed w/ Ford over discontinuing the SC and not only making the 94 Stang slower than the 93, but then making the 4.6 slower then the 5.0 a couple of years later. Camaro was basically the only game in town. I bought a 93 Auto at auction & liked it enough to get a 97 w/ 6speed.

I respect those who put brand loyalty ahead of all else, my dad is a loyal Chevy fan as long as I can remember. My first 4 cars were Chevys. But it takes a certain amount of guts to put out good performance cars nowadays. Ford backed away from it in the 90s while GM via the F-bodies upped the ante.

Although GM is working on a Camaro (and probally a Firebird replacement as well) the fact is that they still walked away from their loyal fans by not officially investing one red cent, even today still, in a replacement.

If I know a Camaro is comming in 2004 for the 2005 model year, will I wait for it? Sure. If the new Mustang comes out & GM still isn't saying anything about Camaro, will I take a look & consider it? Of course I will. If the Charger come out, I'll look at it also. So will everyone else in the market for a high performance RWD V8 car.

Loyalty is great, and if an automaker makes the cars I want, I'll be brand loyal to the max. But if you are loyal to a woman who isn't loyal to you, who is getting the better deal & who is being used?

I'm sure when GM formally approves the Camaro, that we'll get the OFFICIAL "have faith" message.

Not to beat the dead chassis horse too much, but the FBody's chassis has been a selling point for many buyers since at least 1982. Here's a quote from a Hot Rod Magazine review of the 82 T/A: <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Flat and stable, the 82 Trans Am with the optional WS6 suspension is both predictable and forgiving, even on demanding race courses such as Laguna Seca where we tested all the new Firebirds.</font>

Just from my own experience, my 1990 IROC has much less unwanted vibration and especially a lot less cowl shudder than my friend's 76 T/A had. So I believe the 3rdGen's were a significant improvement over the 2nd. And the 4gen chassis is 23% stiffer yet than the 3rdGen, according to my Camaro book by Anthony Young. Plus the SLA front suspension and other refinements are also a clear improvement. GM has refined the chassis and handling steadily over the years as a response to needs/wants of customers. Why didn't GM deliver a completely new chassis with the 4gen? It would have killed the chances of it being an affordable muscle car. And it would have overlapped too much with the Corvette. The Camaro is about performance VALUE, not ultimate performance like the Vette. This is why I won't turn down a 5gen Camaro if it has a live rear axle.

guionM - agree with you about loyalty. If GM can't get off the dime and produce, I'll be looking somewhere else too.

So can we put you down for a Monzarado?

wassat?

Actually, I've already begun my research, just in case:

http://www.uglycars.co.uk

Take a look IF YOU DARE

WHOAW!! I think the tube on my monitor just cracked!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
So can we put you down for a Monzarado?</font>


HAHAHAHAHAHAAH, good one.

BDnF, GM actually was planning an entirely new car for the 4th gen, it was called the GM80. It was killed because it was getting too expensive w/ all that newfangled technology (i.e. FWD, 4 and 6 cylnder power!). Since the big budget program got whacked, they had no choice but to work w/ updating what they already had, and to be honest, they did a great job. My 4th gen is way better than my 3rd, w/ the same architecture. But we can thank our lucky stars that the GM80 didn't work out. GM was going FWD in all their cars and they thought what better platform to SHOWCASE the superior http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif FWD than to put it on the highly visible F-cars. Thank God the bad crack wore off and somebody put an end to it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
BigDarknFast- True the current F-body is a bargain..(if you don't count 30-35K for the gingerbread on an SS)..but what you get for that price is a "motor in a box".

While this concept is appealing for a bench seat Road Runner(I know Mopar) or a really fast strippo Nova...the Camaro and especially the Z/28 should be a whole lot more. It's about style and image and yes...even sophistication.

I want a "REAL" Z/28!</font>
Though "motor in a box" is a bit harsh it does point out that the V8 Camaro can stand for some improvement in the next generation. My suggestion would be improved brakes and better ergonomics, my knee hits the drivers door pull handle and I have already overheated as set of front rotors. Anything other than that would make it cost prohibitive and price it too close to the Corvette. In my eyes the Camaro has always been the smart mans Corvette for value and performance combined with practicality.

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2002 Camaro SS,2001 Corvette,1996 Impala SS

Enthusiasts make up the pride of a company. People who have so much pride in their car and company that they wave the GM banner at races, brag about their cars and so fourth. That pride reflects on everything else the companies make. A camaro or firebird owner brags so much about his car its reflects kindly on other GM cars. An f-body is a way of getting a mass of enthusiasts. Most people can afford an F-body, atleast alot more people that could afford a corvette. The more people who have pride in their brand, the more people that'll come back and buy another GM car like an Impala, Grand Prix ect.

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1996 Camaro RS
Black M5 T-Top

IO'm brand loyal, but up till a point.. I'll probably only get a Chevy or GMC truck, unless I get a deal I really can't pass up on something else.

Performance cars, there's nothing like a Camaro. All the better cars otu there, are just too expensive. I just don't like Mustangs.

Passanger cars is where my brand loyalty starts to weaken... I'd love to have an Impala SS.. However I wouldn't mind a Mercury Maurauder.. However, if I was looking for a boring family sedan, I think I'd probably get an *** or german car, simply cause I think they make better boring sedans.

Those AWD import sedans are very interesting.. If they drop down in price a bit and have a bit more power.........


But they have one thing right.. If it wasn't for the Camaro.. I'd probably not be that interseted in GM vehicles in general.


[This message has been edited by Ken S (edited August 20, 2002).]

I agree with Reno 100%. I have been loyal to GM since my first F-body. Actually, before that all i ever bought was GM, and has been that way all my life. I don't care what anybody says, lack of seriousness and promoting and advertising by GM was the DIRECT reason for the F-body dying.
Ford has spent years and years promoting, advertising, paying movie companies to showcase their mustang in dozens of blockbuster movies, and very aggressivly promoting their high performance division.
And look what it got them, to the top.
While GM turned their backs on the F-body.
No supprise its dead now.
I also agree about Pontiac, they completely dropped the ball on the Firebird. The Trans/Am was ahead of the game and they blew it. I too have no reason to visit a Pontiac dealer anymore. Man, i bet ford is laughing all the way to the bank these days.

2000 Ram Air T/A- Factory ordered
92 Firebird- Factory ordered
79 Z/28

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THE Z-MAN

I said in another post, my dad's first real car that he bought and paid more than $25 for was a 1969 Z28/RS. If you can imagine, he still talks about the car to this day and how much he loved it. We buy nothing but GM products, and GM has never given us a reason to go else where. Right now in our garage we have my Camaro, 97 Lumina (mom), 93 Seirra (dad), 00 S10 ZR2 (sister), 91 Cavalier (my beater). They all run perfect, even the truck with 150,000 miles. The damn thing shifts like its brand new.

Brand loyality is alive and kicking, esp when you can grab a person young. This is why I think GM and Ford are going to really be hurting in a few years. Look how many kids bleed Honda, VW, or Toyota now... it wasnt like that in previous generations. GM and Ford have preowned muscle cars out there to attract customers, but nothing else and thats a killer.

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Chuck Kulchar
1991 Camaro RS LO3 A4 (http://www.thirdgen.org/rides/index.tgo?action=view&rideid=8662)
Now with 100% more Vortec heads!

Pontiac has no new Halo car? What do you call the upcoming GTO? Its going to be V8 powered not a turbo six. It will be powered by a LS-1 making around 340-350 hp. I think this new GTO will be a perfect halo car for Pontiac.
I like the looks and the whole GTO package but I think I'll wait and see what the 5th generation Camaro is going to be like.
As far as brand loyal I've been with Chevy all my life so far, but they are currently not making any cars I am interested in. Sure I'd buy a new Vette if I won the lottery. I like the looks of the Monte Carlo SS but I'd wouldn't have it with just a 3.8L V6.
So as far as being brank loyal I'm all Chevy but my second pick would be Pontiac. And actually my wife drives a '98 Cavalier and were thinking about trading it in on a New Pontiac Vibe. She likes them alot.
I drive a '97 Z28 and as far as all the rattles and noises, my car is 100% rattle and flex free and it has T-Tops and fit and finish is great, I've never understood the complaints about these cars not being built good.

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David

1997 Z28 M6, Monsoon CD, T-Tops, Leather
Flowmaster, TPIS AirFoil, 1LE Intake Elbow, CAI, K&N Conal Filter, Chromed Z28 style tips, Silver Camaro lettering rear, Replaced factory fog lights with Pilot Driving Lights with Hyper-White Bulbs

Join my Yahoo Group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HighPerformanceChevrolets/

I call the new GTO out-of-my-league.

Its nice to me and you, but what is it gonna be to the rest of the youth? Another oversized RWD V8 that they wouldnt think of buying since its from GM. I hate to say it, but that's my generation's mentality.

Halo seems intersting but its about 8 years late to market.

The GTO should be an awesome flagship for Pontiac. 2-door sedan with 340 horspower, sounds good to me. The GTO name is also a ton cooler then the screaming chiken name plate. Not too many people take Pontiac seriously, the GTO should help. The Germans seem to do very well with their RWD cars. Chrysler's going in the direction of building their cars with RWD, the 300N with the new Hemi will be a great example. GM really does suck when it comes sedans. The Cavalair is a joke, the Impala is decent but it's still a couple years behind the imports. Good thing GM sells so many trucks. I almost bought a Infinti G35 (0-60 in 6 seconds),it has BMW 3 series performance for $35K. The Caddilac CTS is moving in the right direction but it still has a lame under-powered V6. I'm not going to spend $38K for a wannabe BMW that only has 222 h/p http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif I have a 02 Avalanche, and I have owned 3 Camaros. The only thing that brought me back was the 0% financing for 5 years. I'm also 22, and driving a Jag or an Infiniti wouldn't of been too cool. Yes my SS has a hard time going around corners and the interior is as small as possible, but I sure do love 340 horsepower and T-Tops. I guess I have a little white-trash blood in me.

A mustang guy recently said to me that his buddies 95 Z is all over the road,now I have a 94 Z and nothing could be further from the truth.These cars are the best they have ever been,just awsome.As for the live axle it just makes things more interesting.It is supposed to be a performance car BALLS OUT,and that is exactly what they are.I wouldn't change a damb thing.Oh ,yes I think I would change 1 thing and that is that I would SPEND A LITTLE ADVERTISING MONEY.That is the real reason the rustang is outselling You can't turn on th T.V. without seeing them,It doesn't even have to be a commertial for it , it could be a car polish,wheel cleaner,etc.And then u see a commertial for Wax as u dry, and the damb GMC emblem is blacked out on the Envoy what the hell gives?