First OFFICIAL pictures of 2004 GTO

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[This message has been edited by formula79 (edited June 22, 2002).]

Wow... I mean, it looks good... but it looked good the first time I saw it, too... as the 1997 Grand Prix GTP Coupe... http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

I gotta say I am kind of underwhelmed.

That is one bland automobile.



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97 Z28 M6 Black
Moroso CAI, 1LE elbow, airfoil, TB bypass, 160 thermo, HPP+, LT4 KM, AC Delco Rapidfire plugs, Taylor Spiro-Pro wires, B&M Ripper, 1LE tranny mount, polyurethane front swaybar bushings, Borla catback WFO, BMR STB, red badging and custom red interior, chrome 17x9.5" ZR1s, Firehawk SZ50s, synthetic fluids throughout

How can thay call it a GTO w/o atleast a hood scoop. I mean Pontiac has the RAM AIR package on Grand Am GT's and the GTO their new flagship gets nothing. The GTO invented RAM AIR for Pontiac, and they have already forgot. W/o RAM AIR this car looks too much like a Grand Prix. How hard is it to fab up a new fiberglass hood for this car? I hope this pic is just preliminary and not the real thing.

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2002 Z28 white/neutral A4 3.23
13.33 @ 104.7 - 650 miles
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1999 Silver SS 6M #3956
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Ryan S.

I've driven nothing but General Motors products since I was 16 (three Camaros, one full size Blazer, one Sunfire, one GTP). The whole Camaro thing has bothered me a great deal. In spite of this I would never have thought I would react as many others have by stating they will take their business elsewhere. Recent changes at GM had given me hope that performance and styling were not dead at the company. In fact I could never have imagined that I would even consider another make ....until now.

These freakin' guys just don't get it! I mean the car looks like a Grand Am! If this is their idea of a GTO then please, PLEASE let the Camaro and Firebird rest in peace. This is ridiculous.

I suppose if I was somewhat better off financially and in the market for a four door then I would have the upcoming CTSi to consider. Unfortunately I'm neither. **sigh** How much does that new Cobra list for?

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1996 Z28 M6
SLP CAI, Granatelli MAF, 1LE elbow, TPS airfoil, SLP Loudmouth, GW SFCs, poly/bearing LCAs and poly panhard rod, BMR STB, Spohn TA, 1LE aluminum DS, 1LE 32mm/21mm sway bars with poly bushings and endlinks, PF Z-rated brake pads, braided steel brake lines, 17" SS wheels (ZR1 style) with BFG KDW, Hurst shifter and CAGS eliminator, LT4 KM, TB bypass, 160 thermostat, SLP fan switch

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chewbacca:
I've driven nothing but General Motors products since I was 16 (three Camaros, one full size Blazer, one Sunfire, one GTP). The whole Camaro thing has bothered me a great deal. In spite of this I would never have thought I would react as many others have by stating they will take their business elsewhere. Recent changes at GM had given me hope that performance and styling were not dead at the company. In fact I could never have imagined that I would even consider another make ....until now.

These freakin' guys just don't get it! I mean the car looks like a Grand Am! If this is their idea of a GTO then please, PLEASE let the Camaro and Firebird rest in peace. This is ridiculous.

I suppose if I was somewhat better off financially and in the market for a four door then I would have the upcoming CTSi to consider. Unfortunately I'm neither. **sigh** How much does that new Cobra list for?

</font>

man what do you expect? Drum Brakes all around. The car is a moderfn interpetation of a classic...not retro.

Well, I guess I'm gonna have to offer the counterpoint in that I actually like the style. Don't get me wrong, I'm suprised that there isn't more of an evolutionary aspect to what is becoming a dated Pontiac look on the front end, but compared to the A(ss)tek, and the Vibe for that matter, I think this is better looking than their more recent attempts. Remember, this is only a stop gap car, a few yrs at the most. I wouldn't be suprised if the next gen GTO wasn't in development already, much like the 2nd gen Fbodies were when the 67's came out.

One point of note, I'm in my early 30's and kind of getting away from the overly aggressive cars marketed to the younger members of my demographic, so maybe this car is being targeted at an older crowd (I don't mean old, just not 18-25 yr olds). I mean I much prefer my Formulas' CLEAN look to that of the T/A's bulky, tacked on look (although that Ram Air hood would look SWEEET on my car), so maybe they're designing this thing to appeal to a "safer" target buyer. By that I mean, maybe we prefer a bit blander style, and don't respond as favorably to bold new styling. I know I'm sounding like an old fart here, but this is coming from someone who likes the simplistic design elegance of the Jaguars, Acuras, and of course, the Formula.

Thoughts?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CLEAN:
One point of note, I'm in my early 30's and kind of getting away from the overly aggressive cars marketed to the younger members of my demographic, so maybe this car is being targeted at an older crowd (I don't mean old, just not 18-25 yr olds). I mean I much prefer my Formulas' CLEAN look to that of the T/A's bulky, tacked on look (although that Ram Air hood would look SWEEET on my car), so maybe they're designing this thing to appeal to a "safer" target buyer. By that I mean, maybe we prefer a bit blander style, and don't respond as favorably to bold new styling. I know I'm sounding like an old fart here, but this is coming from someone who likes the simplistic design elegance of the Jaguars, Acuras, and of course, the Formula.

Thoughts? </font>


Considering the target price of the GTO, it would be stupid to make it overly aggressive looking so the very people who could afford one don't like how it looks.

They've gotta be joking. What are they thinking?? That thing is a GTO?! What does the look of that car have to do with a GTO?? Lets take the look of the Grand Am/Prix and all the others and call it a GTO. That looks like a musclecar alright, LOL. Some1 send them !!TED!!'s concepts fast. Where's the real restyling of this thing they said was gonna happen?? With all the other things always being said about this car not being a GTO or how it shouldn't be, the looks of it are really gonna add to that. They better start redesigning that thing quick and use some sense this time.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 20, 2002).]

Considering they got this thing "fast tracked"....using an existing car and literally got done in no time...I think more about it looks good than bad.

Maybe for the next one, I'd like to see more GTO styling cues. But I'd rather have it looking relatively plain than go all out with a bunch of fake scoops, vents, cladding, etc.

And for those hoping for a hood mounted tach......

Although it looked neat...engine vibratios usually made them unreadable.

IF SLP or ASC was smart, one of them would jump on this and offer a "Judge" upgrade (much like the WS6 and SS) with an aggressive retro style rear spoiler & hood. What do you guys think about that?


[This message has been edited by TA76 (edited June 20, 2002).]

They're gonna sell 20,000 of those things either way. I understand a more conservative approach as this car will be marketed to the more affluent buyer...but it really disappoints me how I honestly don't think I'll be able to tell the difference between that and a Grand Prix, which I see hundreds of every day. Especially if it's coming right at me. It's really time to tweak the Pontiac themed front end...it looked fresh, 10 years ago. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
...but it really disappoints me how I honestly don't think I'll be able to tell the difference between that and a Grand Prix, which I see hundreds of every day.
</font>

Hey Mark,

You'll be able to tell when you notice tire smoke coming from the rear wheels. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Wowee, I love it.

A Little bland, but damn, what a sleeper!

I love this car. And I am 19, so there!

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93 Patriot Red Z28 - A4, 3.23 Gears
*Mods*: Hooker Super Competition Catback, Holley 58MM Throttle Body, Holley Powershot Filter, 160* Thermostat, A. Anderson Programming Chip, Aeromaks Cold Air Intake System

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Time: 14.052@98.23, 2.193 60', Street Tires, Hot & Humid

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
man what do you expect? Drum Brakes all around. The car is a moderfn interpetation of a classic...not retro. </font>

I expected an aggressively styled automobile worthy of the name. I did not expect nor did I want a modern "interpretation" of the original. I am NOT old school but I was hoping for something better than this same old grocery getter/rental fleet appearance.

I understand that styling is extremely subjective but sheesh, this is the best that they can offer? It will be interesting to see if GM is raked over the coals for this one.

I like it . Who cares if theres a slight looking resemblence in the front clip to a Grand Prix , the 97-02 GP's I think are still one of the best looking coupes on the road . Tasteful contemporary stying and one kick ass drivetrain , I dont see the problem http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif In concept , it is really everything the GTO was http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Bravo to pontiac for not turning this into a retro-job http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 90 Z28SS:
Who cares if theres a slight looking resemblence in the front clip to a Grand Prix , the 97-02 GP's I think are still one of the best looking coupes on the road .

Bravo to pontiac for not turning this into a retro-job http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

</font>

I agree about not making it retro... but I think it more than slightly resembles the 97-02 Grand Prix... at least from that shot, it looks like a virtual clone. They might be able to use the same body panels and all! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif

Don't get me wrong, I like the way it looks... pretty much because I like the way the Grand Prix looks, but sense the Prix has been out 7-8 years now, and it hasnt changed at all itself, this 'new' GTO is going to look outdated by the time it is launched. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif




[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 20, 2002).]

I like it! A hood scoop would be nice but it looks fine without it. Now I have to decide between a GTO, Infiniti G35 coupe, and Silverado SS!

If GM is listening.. How about some more ANGLES and less CURVES on the front and rear clips? the "bubble" look may not be completely removable, but for crying out loud at least redesign the headlights and taillights a bit. more edges. less curves. there is NO way to discern this from a Monaro except the front grill and name badges. Everything else is identical. From the front it looks exactly like a Grand Prix. AT least incorporate an optional dual snorkel Ram Air hood into that grill design, 4th gen T/A style, 1971 GTO style. I don't even care if it's functional or fake, just add it as an option. And why is it that the ass-ugly concept SUV's get some interesting angular lines (Piranha, Asstech), not interesting designs but interesting lines, angles, edges, distinctions, while all the production models get the same sleep-inducing windswept bubble look with a happy face built into the front, back, or both? GM is still going off track slowly but surely.. Better keep redesigning that thing.. I hope the preview pic is NOT what the production looks like. Having said that, the fact is that it will sell all units either way because it has the clever balance of being a Jennifer car and a muscle car at the same time (something with which the Mustang has been directly on-target), and Jennifer is where hi-production numbers happen, although she prefers a V6. But as is shown there, it has no niche appeal. The real question is whether or not it'll be collectible in 20 years. The car in that pic will NOT be. Keep working.

[This message has been edited by kizz (edited June 20, 2002).]

I go along with earlier comments from CLEAN, CHRIS 96 WS6, Z284EVER. I think it looks great. The aftermarket suppliers will provide more if you want to get more aggresive looking. I don't know what you expect from a stop gap vehicle. GM is not going to completely redesign the dang thing....geeezzz.

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1997 Formula: Black, M6, !CAGS, Flowmaster muffler, Moroso CAI, Meziere water pump, TB bypass, 160 stat

Nobody asked for a complete redesign.. it does after all have to come from the same assembly line as the Monaro. but think of the f-body.. 2 pretty different designs, off the same line, somewhat different target audiences, yet both profitable. I'm not asking for a complete design, but I'm asking for *distinction* .. people want that.

I LOVE IT!

I mean a little more heritage would've been nice, and the Ram Air hood would be awesome. BUT I think Pontiac did a great job, given what they had, and I'm sure they'll sell every one of them.

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"THE F_O_G HAS RISEN, AND WITH IT BEGINS THE DAWN OF A NEW ERA."

1967-2002, Thanks for 35 years of prestige and performance...... We look forward to the FUTURE.

Hmm...

Of all the choices available to keep costs down - they really only changed the grille -nice work. The look fits confortably into the current Pontiac family of cars, but maintains some individual identity. Sure it's front clip resembles Grand Prix GTP - a good looking car (from the front), but isn't that what brand identity is about? I can certainly see this car having good MASS appeal. we F-Body folks can be a very demanding bunch, but this is NOT a bad looking car...

If this GTO's got it where it counts I'll buy one - there's a space for it right next to the Trans Am. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif



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Jason96T/A
1996 Trans Am
Lingenfelter CAI
Aftermarket Exhaust

It'll sell out for sure, especially at ~ 20k units. Maybe I came off a bit negative, but I'm excited about it, especially after seeing that burnout vid of the HSV Clubsport on a recent thread. It's the closest yet to a GTO in action

Follow up to my older thread, but doesnt the front clip remind of youa z3, just stretched the heck out? =)

really really like it.!

so yeah, next car, Infinity G35 Coupe, or This baby. But you got to admit, nothing better than a grocery getter that hauls major ass.

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93 Patriot Red Z28 - A4, 3.23 Gears
*Mods*: Hooker Super Competition Catback, Holley 58MM Throttle Body, Holley Powershot Filter, 160* Thermostat, A. Anderson Programming Chip, Aeromaks Cold Air Intake System

Audio: JVC KDSH77 HU, Infiniti Kappa 6.5"
Max's Patriot Red 93 Z

Time: 14.052@98.23, 2.193 60', Street Tires, Hot & Humid

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FormulaLT1:
I go along with earlier comments from CLEAN, CHRIS 96 WS6, Z284EVER. I think it looks great. The aftermarket suppliers will provide more if you want to get more aggresive looking. I don't know what you expect from a stop gap vehicle. GM is not going to completely redesign the dang thing....geeezzz.

</font>

Throw my vote in with you guys, I also like the looks of it, and I compliment GM from not going retro or making the car look like a caracture of itself. For those "hey look at me" types, I'm sure there will be aftermarket spoilers, ground effects or a hood with scoops (geez, 4th gen hasn't had ANY scoops outside of SS since 98!), or any other add on you may want.

I love the sleeper look, just like the origional GTOs which passed as a run of the mill Pontiac Tempest till the driver put his foot down. This car is exactly the same way.

LT1s had dual scoops, albiet non-functional. http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif

Thats all I really want to see. Not a big, in your face scoop as in the SS or T/A, but something subtle, something to break up the huge expanse of boring hood, maybe even just a crease down the center or something.

However, for the price range, make the damn thing functional if you do add it GM...

BTW, Im suprised noone caught on that the pic is either a drawing, photoshopped, or both...Its a concept guys... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by MissedShift (edited June 20, 2002).]

That car blows! If they produce such a thing, I hope it bombs out. They would definitely deserve to be raked over the coals for this one.

Some sort of scoop or vents on the hood would be cool, but every tiny little styling change requires lots of $$$. I can only imagine how much the price of each car would go up if they had to amortize the cost of new hood tooling. And if its non-functional I'd rather not have it anyway. Non-Functional = gimmicky (I say that even though I LOVE the hood louvers on an IROC).

The car is already looking like its going to be $35K, another styling change or two and it would cost the same as a vette.

I think it looks clean and tasteful, which is exactly what the 35-50 yr olds with that kind of money to spend want.

When I see a real pic then I will throw in my opinion. Maybe this is just a leak to see what people will think if they decide to go this direction. I think that front end will be ok if it looks llike this from the side http://www.depaulachevrolet.com/main.jpg

I would like to see a Ram Air hood and the spoiler in the above picture.

"Sketch" implies drawing...didn't know that should have been pointed out.

I like the look. You know it wasn't going to be too out there--and it shouldn't be; the original wasn't. Again, it'll sell regardless, but I see this car being very well received. Plus, where do you go in a year or two if you toss all the scoops and ducts on this one? I'm sure there will be a "Judge" or higher performance edition that will incorporate these features in the future. I also think it's clearly more aggressive than the Monaro. Still gotta like the HSV flavors. I dunno, but I think they might used that HSV GTO pic as inspiration when drawing this one. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

HSV GTO and GTS (http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/coupe/coupemenu.html)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
HSV GTO and GTS (http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/coupe/coupemenu.html)</font>

Bingo, it's obviously a Photoshopped HSV GTO (or whatever graphics program they used).

I like it how it is, but I would like to see a little more agression in the design.

Either way, it'll sell.

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[This message has been edited by OctaneZ28 (edited June 20, 2002).]

That car is F*****G AWESOME!!! It's what Pontiac should have been doing for years!! It's about time they ditched that designed-by-an-eighth-grader-in-study-hall look.
This is exactly what the original GTO was. A sleeper. Looks like a Tempest, goes like a Vette.
And that is just what the new one is.
Did you check out the rims? Look like modern interpretations of the old Rally II wheel. How cool!!! And it looks like they got the GTO badging correct with the "GTO" on the driver's side grille. I love the big flush fog lamps.
And you guys worrying about scoops and such, I wouldn't. I'm sure Pontiac has a Ram Air Package up their sleeve that they're not divulging yet. It will have the forward facing Ram Air inlets and hopefully a pedestal mounted rear spoiler, for those who want it.
I got to agree with the posters who are saying that those of you who don't like the car are probably younger guys who like a more aggressive look. Unfortunately(for you guys), that segment is not the GTOs target. I bet it's shooting for the 35-60 group who may have had or always wanted a GTO.

I say BRAVO to GM for finally getting their head out of their a$$ and BRAVO to Pontiac for bringing us such an awesome car.

I guess my next problem is getting onto a waiting list at the local Pontiac dealer. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif
That car will look awesome in my garage next to my C/E.

I like it but a while back someone posted a rendition of this Holden with stacked lights and a '67 Goat-type grille that I preferred. At least it's in keeping with the current Pontiac theme. Remember, Lutz wants Pontiac to be the American version of BMW. The days of hideous scoops and cladding is over....thank God. Though the suggestion of a racier "Judge" version would be a good addition as well.

Screw Ford and that blown Cobra, here comes da Judge!

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'81 Turbo T/A
-'75 Pontiac 400
-Richmond 5-speed/3.70's
-Holley 650cfm 4-barrel on 1/2 in. spacer, blocked exhaust crossover, 160* thermostat, Blackjack 1-5/8 in. 4 tube headers, Thrush 2-1/4in. dual exhaust kit w/ Thrush California Turbo mufflers, no A/C-no emission controls; drunk bitch induced front-end damage, placed on indefinite hiatus.

'97 Z-28
-LT1 350
-Borg Warner T56 6-speed
-descreened MAF, blocked off air silencer, TB bypassed, Flow Tech Warlock 3in. muffler w/ built-in cutout, Moroso CAI, custom cold air scoop = 277.7 rwhp/ 301.9 rwtq; add-on's since last dyno = Hypertech airfoil, 160* thermostat, B&M Ripper

For teh car to be here next year that means that that design is pretty much locked down guys. They issue these sketched alot (Colorado, SRX, to name a few) and they are always right on the money. That sketch is on Pontiac's website right now. The car is a bastardized Monaro plain and simple...but I would rather have it than nothing http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

What this does is leave the door open for SLP to give us a "Judge" w/ hood scoops and other enhancements..... http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

No creativity whatsoever.If maybe they would extend the grills around the headlights(like the '70) and put a hood bulge or ram-air then it might be interesting.

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1991 Z/28 350TPI red ext. w/gray int.
1973 Z/28(project car)

!!TED!!, you got anything new on this front?
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/gto.htm
that face looks great. if you could raise the blackout a bit in the middle so it doesn't go so steep and add some full-length ram air scoops from front to back, it may be really interesting to see, even though we'll never have it that way.

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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

What do I think of the official rendering?
It looks like Lutz's fingerprints are all over this one.
Notice that the grille and foglights (also the color) of the pic are very much like the Solctice?
This is a typical rebadge, but well executed.
Theres no need to go overboard. The Monaro is a nice ride, and so will be the GTO.
And it is a STOP GAP product.
For sure, they have more daring designs waiting in the wings (like the 1999 GTO concept, remember?).

Ill do a more aggressive version for those who want to see it though.

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---Ted Krygier--&gt;

TED ONLINE (http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/)

The car is OK. The Monaro nose looks a lot better though.

91ZMan,
I think you mean the '68s and '69s. The new GTO remains remarkably true to the '70 version.

One thing that I would have liked to see was the twin grilles to be deeply recessed like the '70 and '71-'72 cars. But I have to imagine that that would be extremely expensive and would probably wreak havoc on the aerodynamics and cooling effciency.

For any one that's interested, you need to check out the latest issue of Pontiac Enthusiast (not Pontiac Excitement). In it there is an article by the legendary Jim Wangers. He was the ad genius behind the success of the original GTO. He lays out a whole bunch of ideas to ensure the acceptance and success of the new GTO. It's the July/August 2002 issue on pages 14-15. Good reading.
And in the same issue, they talk about the GTO term "The Great One". Jim wanted to do a campaign calling the GTO a "Goat", it's nickname on the street. GM would not approve. Wangers, in a letter, complained to Delorean about the death of his idea. Delorean kicked it up to John Malone (Pontiac's ad manager) with instructions to run the ad without GM approval. Malone knew better. He showed Wangers letter to GM management. Next thing he knows, Wangers is in his boss's (Ernie Jones) office being told he was fired for "offending GM's ad manager". He wasn't fired. And from the gist of this article, it looks like "The Great One" was borne out of this advertising flub.
This article is another must read along with Wangers' own book "Glory Days".

Everytime I look at that picture I like it more. Even the color combo.

Just curious,... for all you guys that want scoops, vents, cladding, huge spoilers, neon lights or whatever...do you have $35k to plunk down on this car?

wow, thats a good lookin car http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif Only thing they could improve is adding the spoiler someone mentioned ( they posted this picture:
http://www.depaulachevrolet.com/main.jpg ) and a ram air hood would be neat too. But thats a really nice looking car as is. Of course, I'm only 17 so I wont be getting one anytime soon, but oh well http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif I hope they'll still have a firebird in the future though, I've always wanted a brand new T/A.

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1988 Pontiac Firebird Formula
TBI 305 A4 (boy do I want a manual..)
It ain't too fast, but it makes for a nice first car ;)

quote from CLEAN: <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Well, I guess I'm gonna have to offer the counterpoint in that I actually like the style. Don't get me wrong, I'm suprised that there isn't more of an evolutionary aspect to what is becoming a dated Pontiac look on the front end, but compared to the A(ss)tek, and the Vibe for that matter, I think this is better looking than their more recent attempts. Remember, this is only a stop gap car, a few yrs at the most. I wouldn't be suprised if the next gen GTO wasn't in development already, much like the 2nd gen Fbodies were when the 67's came out.
One point of note, I'm in my early 30's and kind of getting away from the overly aggressive cars marketed to the younger members of my demographic, so maybe this car is being targeted at an older crowd (I don't mean old, just not 18-25 yr olds). I mean I much prefer my Formulas' CLEAN look to that of the T/A's bulky, tacked on look (although that Ram Air hood would look SWEEET on my car), so maybe they're designing this thing to appeal to a "safer" target buyer. By that I mean, maybe we prefer a bit blander style, and don't respond as favorably to bold new styling. I know I'm sounding like an old fart here, but this is coming from someone who likes the simplistic design elegance of the Jaguars, Acuras, and of course, the Formula. </font>

With you 100%!!! I really like the new GTO. It's clearly a modern Pontiac, but without going overboard. I also like my Formula due to it seeming more "Jaguar-esque" than say a WS6 T/A. The new GTO almost seems like a perfect cross between a GTP coupe and an LS1 Formula (OMG now I want to sell both my Pontiacs to get one!)

Like TA76 said, SLP can help those who want a car that "shouts" GTO Judge heritage. This is a great stopgap car and I predict will be a hit for Pontiac at a time when they will sorely need a true RWD performance car to help maintain their "excitement" image.

------------------
NBM 99Formula, DF Lid, K&N, SLP WS6 Takeoff Muffler (http://www.mwshowgo.com/Formula99/index.htm) | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, transcooler (http://www.mwshowgo.com/GTPrix/index.htm)
| Dark Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, stock (http://www.mwshowgo.com/red90iroc/index.htm)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
91ZMan,
I think you mean the '68s and '69s. The new GTO remains remarkably true to the '70 version. </font>Whoops,my bad.I thought that it was the '71 was the year that they changed the nose.Thanks for the correction.



------------------

1991 Z/28 350TPI red ext. w/gray int.
1973 Z/28(project car)

No one is saying it's a bad looking car. I was just expecting something a little different than a virtual GTP clone. Why fall back on a look that has already been done? Should have enough imagination to come up with something stylish, tasteful, and different. Can't wait to see what the "2nd New Gen" GTO will look like! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kizz:
!!TED!!, you got anything new on this front?
http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/gto.htm
that face looks great. if you could raise the blackout a bit in the middle so it doesn't go so steep and add some full-length ram air scoops from front to back, it may be really interesting to see, even though we'll never have it that way.</font>

I agree, that 2nd red GTO is something what it should look like. They can do better than that. Even if they do change it later, it should be alot better than that thing they wanna call GTO.

From looking at all the replies I think the general concensus is the picture lookes good but could use more.
The GTO gave Pontiac RAM AIR why they would abadon that is questionable to me. I know how GM designs and styles cars and I KNOW the people working on this were well aware of the 64-74 GTO's and all the special things that go along with it, Ram Air, Judge, the tiger theme. This nameplate has more musclecar history than many others combined. Hopefully SLP will step in with a RA hood and maybe some ground effects or something, for a Judge model.

What ever happened to Pontiac's GTO concept car from like 2 years ago. That car was bad ass, and it had alot of the original styling cues from the old GTO. The HSV GTO is exactly what we are getting here, except for the smoother Pontiac front end. I like it though this is going to be an incredible performance sedan. Just what I want for my second car, another year I will be ready to buy, as long as it isn't too much over 30k. Check out the link below, Holden actually compares the 255 GTO to the original Pontiac GTO right on their web site. This was such an easy move for Lutz to make, all they need to do is fab a new front fender and a few Pontiac badges, Since the GTO is already a production vehicle, they should be able to competitively price this car.......there are virtually no start up costs for GM on this one.

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/coupe/gto/gto1024.html

------------------
-Jeff
'96 Black WS6 TA
99% stock, Accel ign wires, K&N & BMR Strut Bar
http://homepage.mac.com/bond2

WS6 Ram Air Background Pics (http://homepage.mac.com/bond2/carpics.htm)

[This message has been edited by bond2 (edited June 21, 2002).]

I'm sure fans of Ted's work will like the new Alfa Romeo Brera (http://www.motortrend.com/june02/brera/brera_f.html).

Here are some links about the 1999 Concept GTO:

http://www.autoworld.com/news/Pontiac/PontiacGTO.htm

http://www.pontiacpower.net/spot2kgto.html

I think this should be the new GTO, and the Holden vehicle were getting should be introduced as a new vehicle in the Pontiac lineup. Because even though it doesn't look like a GTO, it is still a sweet car.

------------------
-Jeff
'96 Black WS6 TA
99% stock, Accel ign wires, K&N & BMR Strut Bar
http://homepage.mac.com/bond2

WS6 Ram Air Background Pics (http://homepage.mac.com/bond2/carpics.htm)

The '99 NAIAS GTO Concept (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=1154&left=)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bond2:
What ever happened to Pontiac's GTO concept car from like 2 years ago. That car was bad ass, and it had alot of the original styling cues from the old GTO. http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/coupe/gto/gto1024.html

</font>

From what I remember it didn't go over well at all. I think gaudy and garish were a couple of the many terms used.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bond2:
Here are some links about the 1999 Concept GTO:
</font>

Jeff just beat me to it, but my pics are bigger http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

No that car bombed... http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

Hell it says GTO to me. Looks to me like a 2 door Coupe that they just decided to throw some massive power underneath. That's all the GTO, Nova, Chevelle, etc etc were back i nthe day.

Nice and simple design that has a ton of power in it. That IS a muscle car. If I wanted some fancy thing with hood scoops and vents on the side and blah blah blah I'd be looking at sports cars.

Extravagant styling is fitting to the pony cars like the Camaro and Firebird/Trans-Am. It's always been a part of their game. The GTO though is supposed to be simple. You're supposed to hear and feel its power more than see it.

That's my opinion on it. And mine isn't a very weighty one as I doubt I'll be able to afford a 30k+ car in 2004. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

I am not too crazy about this 2004 GTO...
It is a nice looking car but it is not a "HOLY SH1T, DID YOU SEE THAT CAR?" kind of car.

It looks like a cross between a Grand Prix and a Prelude with Avenger headlights!

If they ever go into production and run low-mid 13's in the quarter THEN they will sell. We'll see...

Later...Heavy

------------------
1972 Chevelle SS
Forged 383, Dart Pro1 heads, TCI stall.
Should be DEEP 12's /maybe 11's.

I like it. It has a nice clean look to it. Retro styling is getting old fast, its nice to see something fresh. Keep in mind the actual car will look better in person.

------------------
-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6 (http://ws6bird.cz28.com/)
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash

have you seen the interior????
interior (http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/interior.jpg)

Its ok, looks like the gtp to me

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ude-lose:
have you seen the interior????
interior (http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/interior.jpg)</font>

I like the interior, but the outside needs to change. The 4 bucket seats are awesome!

Well, if this is truly what GM is intending on producing, then I will have to congratulate the automaker for holding up to it's recent tradition.....Of destroying classic nameplates by bringing them back in a non-flattering fashion. Now the legendary GTO can join the prestigeous ranks of the Impala, Nova, and Monte Carlo.

GM did EXACTLY what I thought they would, slap a bland front & rear tratment, and a few badges on the Monaro, and call it a day. All in the name of quick-to-market profits. This rendition is a real tribute to the original: ram-air scoops, unique body lines, revoloutionary innovations...[NOT] http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

I won't stay on my high horse too long, but again, there is much more to the GTO than the fact that it was a two-door, V8 RWD fast car. There were many factors that made the GTO stand out from the rest, for example: torquey low-revving engines pounding out torque for street dominance, ram-air engine & air intake technology, hood tachs, no-comprimise handling & powertrain options, and revolutionary front-end design [endura bumper 68-72].

All of things add up to set this car apart from all of the rest. WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS CAR??? http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

It looks like a grand am! No wonder the guys on the original link's site are excited. They're saying: wow! I'll trade my grand am for the new one! IT'S GREAT!!!

I almost had a shred of hope that GM might take their task seriously and put some time & effort into designing this car, but as usual, my hopes were too high.

I'm really starting to believe Bill Ford's commercials about the passion that Ford has for it's vehicles. It shows in their products: Merc. Maurauder, Thunderbird, Mach I mustang, Cobra R, Ford '49., Galaxie 500, etc...

GM has a lot to learn...

http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

GOATCRAZY, I think I may have asked you this before but,what specific things would you change on this GTO to make it acceptable?

...I mean it looks like a Pontiac...it carrys current Pontiac styling themes.

Is this more a sense of dissatisfaction with Pontiac itself, rather than this GTO?

What would YOU change on it if you could?

Seems that you can't please everyone, & that's OK.

There seems to be two trains of thought developing here. One group that likes the original GTO idea of sleeper performance & having a car that like the original was easily confused with Pontiac's run of the mill Tempest & would drop jaws when it took off. The other group here prefers what GTO eventually became, with the added on scoops, spoilers, & tach. A car that said "look at me, I'm fast, & I look like it".

GTO was both. It was a sleeper that evolved into a flamboyant muscle car. I'm not going to debate something that is a matter of taste (or which period GTO you prefer), but this new begining GTO certainly represents the start of the first ones.

Maybe it will evolve into the "Judge" era cars, but much more likely, it will be an optional package leaving the rest of us the oppertunity (like even late 60's GTO buyers had) to have a plain sleeper version that didn't attract unwarranted attention.

This GTO is a good start & mercifully doesn't resort to 99's GTO show car or some other cartoon, and infact does resemble in many ways the LeMans GTOs in it's curves & simplicity. Now, about the price....

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:

This GTO is a good start & mercifully doesn't resort to 99's GTO show car or some other cartoon, and infact does resemble in many ways the LeMans GTOs in it's curves & simplicity. Now, about the price....</font>

Thank you! Pontiac had it's chance to design it's own GTO...and presented to us the'99 concept GTO.....EEEEEKKK!!!!

BTW..the designer of that concept proudly proclaimed...."believe it or not, I never knew what a GTO was before this project". I completely believed him!!

I would take this Holden based GOAT over that more expressive '99 concept any day!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
Well, if this is truly what GM is intending on producing, then I will have to congratulate the automaker for holding up to it's recent tradition.....Of destroying classic nameplates by bringing them back in a non-flattering fashion. Now the legendary GTO can join the prestigeous ranks of the Impala, Nova, and Monte Carlo.

GM did EXACTLY what I thought they would, slap a bland front & rear tratment, and a few badges on the Monaro, and call it a day. All in the name of quick-to-market profits. This rendition is a real tribute to the original: ram-air scoops, unique body lines, revoloutionary innovations...[NOT] http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

I won't stay on my high horse too long, but again, there is much more to the GTO than the fact that it was a two-door, V8 RWD fast car. There were many factors that made the GTO stand out from the rest, for example: torquey low-revving engines pounding out torque for street dominance, ram-air engine & air intake technology, hood tachs, no-comprimise handling & powertrain options, and revolutionary front-end design [endura bumper 68-72].

All of things add up to set this car apart from all of the rest. WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS CAR??? http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

It looks like a grand am! No wonder the guys on the original link's site are excited. They're saying: wow! I'll trade my grand am for the new one! IT'S GREAT!!!

I almost had a shred of hope that GM might take their task seriously and put some time & effort into designing this car, but as usual, my hopes were too high.

I'm really starting to believe Bill Ford's commercials about the passion that Ford has for it's vehicles. It shows in their products: Merc. Maurauder, Thunderbird, Mach I mustang, Cobra R, Ford '49., Galaxie 500, etc...

GM has a lot to learn..</font>

AGREED. Exactly what you just said.



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 22, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Thank you! Pontiac had it's chance to design it's own GTO...and presented to us the'99 concept GTO.....EEEEEKKK!!!!</font>

No kidding. The 99 concept couldn't look more like a cartoon even if Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd were cruising in it with Roger Rabbit hanging onto the hood for dear life.

That '99 concept was nasty. Like something out of a bad B-movie.
Here's the problem as I see it. A lot of people on this board are too young to remember the original GTO. As guionM said, GTOs did not start out as flamboyant Judges, the psychadelic late 60s brought on the Judge.
As for the the early cars, you could barely tell them apart from a Tempest/Lemans. They looked that similar. And even in the late 60s and early 70s, you could option out a major sleeper GTO. There was a rare option where you could delete the Endura nose and get the Lemans' chrome unit. You could even order the GTO on the 2 door SEDAN body style. That means you got metal frames around the side glass and a fixed B-pillar. These are referred to as the "post cars". Quite ugly, actually. But a GTO nonetheless. And the GTOs were simply, cleanly styled. They had room for 4-5 adults and their stuff, a big V-8, high HP, available stick, and RWD. Isn't this exactly what the new one offers? I guess I just don't get all the negativity.
AND, everybody in here fell all over the G8 concept. And now the same people are complaining that it looks too much like a GP. I DON"T GET IT. This car is pretty much the G8. Only better!!
Maybe it is all the young-ins who want all the scoops and spoilers. And maybe they're doing all of the complaining. Maybe their just upset that the new car is not a Firebird.
Ya know, there are probably more people in the intended market that would rather have no goo-gads than to be all festooned up with plastic.
And as always, I agree with guionM 100%.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
That '99 concept was nasty. Like something out of a bad B-movie.
Here's the problem as I see it. A lot of people on this board are too young to remember the original GTO. As guionM said, GTOs did not start out as flamboyant Judges, the psychadelic late 60s brought on the Judge.
As for the the early cars, you could barely tell them apart from a Tempest/Lemans. They looked that similar. Maybe it is all the young-ins who want all the scoops and spoilers. And maybe they're doing all of the complaining. .</font>

Maybe I'm wrong...but I also get the impression that most of the unhappy posters are under twenty. Probably not the target market for the GTO....or for that matter the next Camaro.

....incidentally...if you were really a gearhead in the '60s...and could stand the looks, the "post" cars were desirable for their lighter weight and cheaper price.

Cant we all just get along??? I think some of you need to step back and take a breath. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

First off, this is only a sketch of the 2004 GTO, its not set in stone. Do you think maybe they released the photo to see what people think of it? Maybe we should wait to see what the ACTUAL car looks like before we jump down GMs throat.

Second, the origional GTO, outside of the Judge, was a sleeper, a car that would drive buy and you really wouldnt give it a long look until you heard the exhaust note. Some seem to think this GTO needs to be in you face to be a true GTO. While I like the Judge of the 60s and 70s, other Goats didnt have that HOLY CRAP DID YOU SEE THE COLOR OF THAT CAR look. Someone hit it on the head, this is a great point for SLP to make a Judge edition from.

And as far as the scoops, buldges, flairs, spoilers and such; relax. Some of you were saying not long ago that Pontiac needs to get away from the plastic clading and ad-ons ala Aztek. Now you want them again. Yes, I agree that it could use a duel scoop hood and maybe a hood tach and rear spoiler, but again, its just a sketch. As an artist I can tell you I never show my best sketches first. I tease with the ones I like but am not in love with. Then I spring the great ones. Maybe that is the case here.

One last thing; the idea that it looks similar to a Grand Prix is good and what it should be. You take a 1969 LaMans and stick it next to a 1969 GTO and guess what; they look ALOT a like. They were meant to. I for one like this new 21st century GTO. Yes, I would like to see a little more in it, and maybe we will. I think we need to wait for a picture of the actual car to see what happens. And remember, they are only changing the skin on the nose, hood and front fenders to speed up production and keep cost down, so its going to have that Monaro feeling no matter what, at least until it is re-designed and built here in the states. Just my two cents, or four! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

------------------
1998 Dark Blue Metallic
Formula
327 hp
K&N air filter
chip mod
Brut stop brakes

Not bad.. But it reminds me a spin off of a Supra.

------------------
Anthony
Sit Down Buckle Up, Objects In The Mirror Are About To Get Small VERY FAST!!!...
Mods95Z, 3" Borla Catback, SLP TPI throttle boost, 160' Hypertech Ther/at, StageII, K&N FIPK, Descreaned MAF, Hotchkis Shock Tower Brace, & a few free mods.
Appearance by Lund ,RK Sport & Reflective Concepts. Red Painted Calipers. 17" American Torq Thrust II with Falken ZIEX ZE-502, V-Tech rear light covers. White face gauge overlay. And a few nice things I did my self.
Member Of: www.slfba.com (http://www.slfba.com)
http://www.SaveTheCamaro.com

The Pontiac GTO design is good. It looks nice and clean. Too many loud cars nowadays.

Just remember, it's a lot easier to toss scoops and spoilers on a car than it is to take them off. The Honda Civic sells to normal people with it's normal look, and then to the "i want a loud car types" they can buy their own huge spoilers and body kits to put on it.

Likewise, I'm sure there will be huge spoilers and body kits for the people who want to put them on these cars. Or not, for $35K that's generally a more mature market, less interested in flash for flash's sake.

------------------
Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
The Pontiac GTO design is good. It looks nice and clean. Too many loud cars nowadays.

Just remember, it's a lot easier to toss scoops and spoilers on a car than it is to take them off. The Honda Civic sells to normal people with it's normal look, and then to the "i want a loud car types" they can buy their own huge spoilers and body kits to put on it.

Likewise, I'm sure there will be huge spoilers and body kits for the people who want to put them on these cars. Or not, for $35K that's generally a more mature market, less interested in flash for flash's sake.

</font>

Great post - Spoilers/tachs/scoops do not make the car ...

The Holden Monaro's are offered with a rear spoiler, but so far only 2% of all sales have optioned them on ...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Decromin:
Great post - Spoilers/tachs/scoops do not make the car ...

The Holden Monaro's are offered with a rear spoiler, but so far only 2% of all sales have optioned them on ...

</font>


Thats because wussy Aussies don't like aggressive things like dual exhaust http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif j/k

Great post MunchE

I love the new GTO..just what I expected http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

GOATCRAZY, so is the 231 S.D. in your '96 Bonneville and 2.4L H.O. in your Sunfire any more respectful to the Pontiac 421SD, SD455, and 455HO of yesteryear as this modern interpretation of the GTO is to the classic goats? Are you serious about those designations or is that all in jest? Are you one of those traditional Pontiac enthusiasts that don't like Wenzler and E-heads, or IA blocks and Eagle cranks because they are not "real" Pontiac parts and that you can go faster using outdated and expensive swap-meet relics? I visit a lot of the traditional Pontiac websites and soooo many diehards like yourself will never be pleased by Pontiac nowadays unless a real Pontiac V8 sits between the fenders of a new Pontiac. I think it's time to get over this. This car IS worthy of the GTO name. Lutz and Pontiac did good IMO, far better than what Chevy has done to the Impala or Monte Carlo. Yeah, the car could have been designed and built in the U.S., but oh well. They made use of their resources to get a replacement for the F-bods quickly and efficiently, and it is superior to any 4th gen F-bod in terms of suspension and interior design. And it is different from anything in GM's current domestic line-up.

This isn't a flame GOATCRAZY. I guess I can understand your discontent, but Pontiac could have done far worse to the GTO name. Thank the God's that Lutz is slowly making a difference at GM. I too love my old Pontiac, and once I have my 6X-4's and stuff in from P-Dude, I'll have my weekend warrior. In addition, I gonna be helping my old man restore his first new car that he ever bought and still has, a '74 Grand Am 400/4-speed, once he retires in a couple of years. Meanwhile, I'm gonna think about how I can rearrange my finances so I can get my hands on a new GTO when my '97 Z-28 is paid off. And to think, I was contemplating on getting one of those ugly-azz blown Cobra's, yuck. I just can't see myself buying a Ford just yet. I am still pissed that GM cancelled the Firebird and Camaro and the causes surrounding their demise, but with Lutz at the helm and the GTO on the horizon, I think GM is definitely on the verge of a serious comeback.

------------------
'81 Turbo T/A
-'75 Pontiac 400
-Richmond 5-speed/3.70's
-Holley 650cfm 4-barrel on 1/2 in. spacer, blocked exhaust crossover, 160* thermostat, Blackjack 1-5/8 in. 4 tube headers, Thrush 2-1/4in. dual exhaust kit w/ Thrush California Turbo mufflers, no A/C-no emission controls; drunk bitch induced front-end damage, placed on indefinite hiatus.

'97 Z-28
-LT1 350
-Borg Warner T56 6-speed
-descreened MAF, blocked off air silencer, TB bypassed, Flow Tech Warlock 3in. muffler w/ built-in cutout, Moroso CAI, custom cold air scoop = 277.7 rwhp/ 301.9 rwtq; add-on's since last dyno = Hypertech airfoil and 160* thermostat, B&M Ripper.



[This message has been edited by ponchoV8 (edited June 22, 2002).]

Just want to say to all that this is one of the most lively, spirtied, interesting, yet still amazingly civil posts I've ever seen here! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Hmmm. I guess our point is, it just seems like a cop-out to throw a Grand Prix front end on the thing and call it a day. Give the GTO its own identity styling-wise....no scoops or other gimmics necessary. The car deserves to be distinguished from the W-body, because it is most certainly NOT a W-body. If this is going to be Pontiac's flagship then just set it apart somewhat.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

I think it looks alright. I'm not really a fan of the whole Pontiac design theme altogether. Never really liked the Grand Prix or the Firebird. Just over the top and outragious without real charm. Sort of like that empty feeling you get after eating a bowl of empty calory icecream.

On the other hand, I liked the Monaro in the first place and this looks like a decent grafting of the better recent Pontiac design themes onto the original machine. I think that GM (and probably Lutz) did this on purpose. Here's why. If you haven't tuned into all the jazz surrounding the GTO/Monaro for the past some months and simply saw one on the street you'd think, "hmm, I can tell its definitely a Pontiac, but it looks like its got more posture and backbone than I've noticed in other Pontiacs. Maybe I'll check it out!"

Finally, this is pretty much what I've expected. I am a huge fan of understated performance and elegance. Perhaps some people were expecting some kind of ground breaking design and feel let down. To that I say, the GTO is not the right car to do that. GM is going through a lot of trouble to bring this car here as a saving face monuver, they aren't going to mess with a proven formula under such terms.

One last thing. Its only one photoshoped/touched up picture at a scewed angle. Perhaps more pictures will reveal its charm. Example, I think there is potential for a more agressive look than what appears there. Its really hard to see the car's stance, or tell its proportions...

To all of you that don't like the new GTO, click on the below link, scan down a few posts, and take a look at the photoshopped pic. Is that what you're after?

http://www.hoodscoop.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=006307

poncho,
I agree whole heartedly. These die-hard Pontiac fans want an antiquated iron block & head engine between the fenders or they're not happy. Compared to today's engines, the old Pontiac design is really not very good. Everytime you spun 'em past 5 grand you had to hold your breath in fear something was gonna shoot out the base, unless TONS of money was put into the engine. The old stuff is heavy and inefficient.
And I wish these guys would quit saying that Pontiac is ruining the car by putting a Chevy engine in it. I'm so sick of that. The LS1 is NOT a Chevy engine. It is a GM Corporate engine. It shares no parts or design with ANY of the previous versions of the small block Chevy. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.
And then they compare the car to the current Impala & Malibu. How can you compare those? GM bastardized those names onto ugly FWD, V-6, 4 door sedan cars. The new GTO is staying true to it's heritage.
I'm afraid people just don't understand or are too narrow minded.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
[B]The LS1 is NOT a Chevy engine. It is a GM Corporate engine. It shares no parts or design with ANY of the previous versions of the small block Chevy. B]</font>


AAaahhhh, there's where you're wrong, it has the same BORE SPACING! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif But hey, I LOVE my "chevy" engine http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif


------------------
2001 Formula
307RWHP/331RWTQ

Direct-Flo w/ Holley
!MAF screen
FRA
Flowmaster
Kirban Kwik Six
SLP STB and SFC's

Its great to see GM resurrect the GTO, but I believe more restyling should be done on the front end. My first car was a 67 tempest, I thought the front grill on it was an excellent design with cat eye grill and stacked headlights.
Those huge parking lights looked bad on Solstice and dont belong here. This front end says grand prix or grand am too much. It doesnt look like alot of effort was put into the restyle. They should take some of the old gto's more popular design elements (like ford did with the Thunderbird) and incorporate them into the new gto.
Also why cant GM make a copy of Holden's tooling and build these here in the us or canada instead? Many people are going to be ticked off when they go to buy the gto or ssr and find huge dealer markups. With no 2 door gp soon, there is no reason the market couldnt absorb 50,000 gto's. It is the goal of every manufacturer to maximize sales, wonder when gm will learn this?

I think it is more important for it to have a nice spoiler than a hood, if it keeps the hood in the sketch and gets the spoiler from the pic below I will be happy.

http://www.depaulachevrolet.com/main.jpg

In my opinion, this car is being marketed towards the over 25 crowd, and I think most of this crowd does not want lots of spoilers, ground effects, non-functional slots and scoops etc. I think pontiac has been doing an awful job lately with their styling, all that body cladding and over the top hood scoops and spoilers look terrible. I am so glad to hear that Bob Lutz is taking pontiac styling towards the clean look. I love the look of the gto drawing, and the solstice concept, and the next grand am is supposed to be one heck of a car with a nice clean design. Good things are coming from pontiac I think.

its good looking car.you have to understand that the gto's first year back GM isnt going to go crazy with the styling.i wouldnt worry about the scoops and tach i bet you in a year or two after it has been out they will have special edition judges that have the legendary GTO trim pieces.(you guys should just imagine the after market)can you just imagine all the things you could buy for it hoods,rims,spoilers,badges,tachs.its going to be aweosome.like the PT cruiser it has smooth lines and a lot can be done with it.its like a painters canvas.so i think that pontiac made a smart choice by not blowing it out of proportions.all the stuff you guys want will come later.you have to admit that its better than making the grand am the next gto with the supercharged 3.4 6 banger they were going to build a year or two back.THE RWD V8 IS BACK!!!!!!!

It won't sell, i'm sorry. Even former Pontiac guru Herb Adams said he highly doubts it will do well. He said he hopes he's wrong.
Think about it people. Don't you think anyone wanting a rear wheel drive, V-8 powered Pontiac wouldn't they have bought a Trans/Am?

2000 Ram Air T/A
92 Firebird
79 Z/28

------------------
THE Z-MAN

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by THE Z-MAN:
...Don't you think anyone wanting a rear wheel drive, V-8 powered Pontiac wouldn't they have bought a Trans/Am?

2000 Ram Air T/A
92 Firebird
79 Z/28

[/B]</font>
That question sent a chill down my spine...
Knee jerk reaction aside - even the previous 4th Gen styling (Like my trusty, reliable 96 T/A) is a bit polarizing in a love/hate kinda way. I sure hope people go for this more 'body neutral' design so we still have that familiar Pontiac rear wheel drive 2 door V8 formula available to us...

[This message has been edited by Jason96T/A (edited June 22, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by steven j:
(you guys should just imagine the after market)can you just imagine all the things you could buy for it hoods,rims,spoilers,badges,tachs.its going to be aweosome.</font>

But I agree with Darth, since only 20,000 units are going to be made I doubt we'll see an abundance of aftermarket parts for this car. Not at first anyway. Aftermarket companies have to make their money too and they won't, unless they charge a couple grand for a hood tach.

And about if people wanted a RWD Pontiac they would've bought the Firebird...not necessarily. Many didn't want the impracticality and (overly?) aggressive styling of the Bird. RWD and V8 power is where the similarities end. This car will be a "success" either way, because it WILL sell all 20k copies.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

[This message has been edited by Z28Wilson (edited June 22, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by THE Z-MAN:
It won't sell, i'm sorry. Even former Pontiac guru Herb Adams said he highly doubts it will do well. He said he hopes he's wrong.
Think about it people. Don't you think anyone wanting a rear wheel drive, V-8 powered Pontiac wouldn't they have bought a Trans/Am?
</font>

I'm going to be in the market for a used LS1 once I pay off my LT1 Z28. And I sometimes think I'd want a WS6, except for the god awful styling on it. No offense, but the T/As are way overdone, turns off a lot of the market over the age of 25 to them.

They could sell this car to a mature market, it's a nice looking car in the vein of a BMW or a Lexus or any of those brands. It's smooth, clean, and nice looking. Most people don't care if it's a Pontiac or whatever, they like what they like. The Trans Am and the new GTO aren't the same car, not even close to the same market.

If someone wanted a nice clean looking RWD V8 in the mid 30s, they could go for the GTO, or a lux brand import. They could not look at the Trans Am. This car definintely has a segment, but the question is wether or not they can lure people away from Lexus/BMW/etc. I think the limited run, the GTO name and the extra oomph will sell out the original 20k. But I guess only time will tell.

------------------
Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

&lt;FONT SIZE="6" COLOR="#307500"&gt;WHAT ABOUT RED TIRES?

They will undoubtedly sell out 20k units...probably faster than they can build them.

And I agree with the previous post about Trans Ams being overdone. The only people I ever hear talking about how great they look, are people too young to afford them and their insurance.

The great irony with the 4th gens in general was that those could afford them...didn't want them and those who wanted them couldn't afford them.


.....I don't think the GTO will have that problem.

Well it's not a real hot looker but at least it's no Aztek!! 7 out of 10.

A Ram Air Hood would liven it up.
I'd like to see a rear shot.

If Pontiac is going upscale towards BMW- this is the perfect car. BMW's look good- no one would call them beautiful or sexy though-
but they are a true high performnace car with
a rep Pontiac would kill for

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
They will undoubtedly sell out 20k units...probably faster than they can build them.

The great irony with the 4th gens in general was that those could afford them...didn't want them and those who wanted them couldn't afford them.</font>

That makes at least 6 or 7 people who have stated that now in different threads (the quick 20K sellout prediction), and it's something I totally agree with. Interesting to note that in 1992 or so when we were getting the first look at the F4, you didn't really see people coming out and boldly predicting a success waiting to happen like you see now. Granted, the F4 wasn't limited to 18k - 20k units, but the fat@ss crackwhale design is really what killed it in the long run, and the conflicting markets / budgets you mentioned. The '04 GTO doesn't have this bipolar attribute of the F4 and it'll have no trouble selling all 20K fast. Assuming '05 will have similarly low numbers, they'll all sell as soon as they come in too. Beyond that, I don't know what's in store. Just the idea of a new nameplate not seen for 28 years is enough to energize enough enthusiasts to ensure a sellout.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 305fan:
A Ram Air Hood would liven it up.
I'd like to see a rear shot.</font>

That's something not many people have talked about. I guess the assumption is that it'll look basically just like a Monaro in the back too. I desperately hope they'll square out those taillights on the outer edges somehow. As they are now, they scream "soccer mom", if you ask me http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif the rear bumper could benefit from some squaring off too. If you look at the rear bumper from one end to the other, it just bulges out too much and looks countrerproductive. I'd move it in a couple of inches towards the middle where the license plate mounts.

Or better yet: move the license plate down to the bumper itself, and then you have more room to enhance the taillight design towards the middle, on the actual trunk lid, adding maybe just reflective non-illuminated panels or something there. I did a prelimilary retouch of a Monaro pic this way and it looks excellent!

------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

[This message has been edited by kizz (edited June 23, 2002).]

Post it. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif Before and after. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
GOATCRAZY, I think I may have asked you this before but,what specific things would you change on this GTO to make it acceptable?

...I mean it looks like a Pontiac...it carrys current Pontiac styling themes.

Is this more a sense of dissatisfaction with Pontiac itself, rather than this GTO?

What would YOU change on it if you could?</font>

What I really dreamed of for the return of the GTO was similar, no, EXACTLY what ford did for the thunderbird. Ford took the time and money to create a MODERN INTERPERTATION of a classic vehicle. The thunderbird follows NONE of the current ford styling cues [thank God], it is a freshened version of the original.

THAT'S what I expect from GM. Other car manufacturers have done it. If Chrysler can make low-production specialty cars like the prowler, viper, pt cruiser, etc etc..Why can't GM??? Why does GM have to take the easy way out and slap badges on other people's vehicles? It's a cop-out in my opinion..It's an easy business decision..Spend millions developing, designing, manufacturing, and marketing a vehicle that they're really not sure will sell...Or slap badges on something else that already is a hit..It's almost a no-brainer....But to a loyalst, it's an insult http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

As for specifics, I'd like to see the obvious: ram-air hood scoops, styling flavor of the 68-70 models [endura bumper, body shaping], maybe even a modern hidden headlight system. Hurst 6-speed or dual-gate automatic. Modern version of ralleye wheels..

I think you see where I'm coming from..When I look at this car, I want to see a MODERN RENDIDTION of a classic.

JUST LIKE FORD http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif



------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ponchoV8:
GOATCRAZY, so is the 231 S.D. in your '96 Bonneville and 2.4L H.O. in your Sunfire any more respectful to the Pontiac 421SD, SD455, and 455HO of yesteryear as this modern interpretation of the GTO is to the classic goats? Are you serious about those designations or is that all in jest? Are you one of those traditional Pontiac enthusiasts that don't like Wenzler and E-heads, or IA blocks and Eagle cranks because they are not "real" Pontiac parts and that you can go faster using outdated and expensive swap-meet relics? I visit a lot of the traditional Pontiac websites and soooo many diehards like yourself will never be pleased by Pontiac nowadays unless a real Pontiac V8 sits between the fenders of a new Pontiac. I think it's time to get over this. This car IS worthy of the GTO name. Lutz and Pontiac did good IMO, far better than what Chevy has done to the Impala or Monte Carlo. Yeah, the car could have been designed and built in the U.S., but oh well. They made use of their resources to get a replacement for the F-bods quickly and efficiently, and it is superior to any 4th gen F-bod in terms of suspension and interior design. And it is different from anything in GM's current domestic line-up.

This isn't a flame GOATCRAZY. I guess I can understand your discontent, but Pontiac could have done far worse to the GTO name. Thank the God's that Lutz is slowly making a difference at GM. I too love my old Pontiac, and once I have my 6X-4's and stuff in from P-Dude, I'll have my weekend warrior. In addition, I gonna be helping my old man restore his first new car that he ever bought and still has, a '74 Grand Am 400/4-speed, once he retires in a couple of years. Meanwhile, I'm gonna think about how I can rearrange my finances so I can get my hands on a new GTO when my '97 Z-28 is paid off. And to think, I was contemplating on getting one of those ugly-azz blown Cobra's, yuck. I just can't see myself buying a Ford just yet. I am still pissed that GM cancelled the Firebird and Camaro and the causes surrounding their demise, but with Lutz at the helm and the GTO on the horizon, I think GM is definitely on the verge of a serious comeback.

</font>

Au contraire, mon frere! I have no problem with what people do with their pontiacs! My motto is: if it's on the street, it's not in the crusher! And, yes I was kidding about the 231 SD, but not about the 2.4 or 400 those are factory designations...

And, remember I used to work for GM, so I know that It's no longer realistic to have divisional powertrains in vehicles..That was an inefficient way of doing things fron the beginning...Of course GM brands competing against each other for sales in the 60's diddn't make sense to me either...So I'm not asking for a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac-specific car designed just for Pontiac. I wouldnt have a problem with that PLATFORM being used as a springboard for the return of the Gutless 442, chebby SS, and Skylark...They were all on the same platform back then anyway!

All I'm asking for, and I don't think that's too much, is for GM to put the same time and effort into this platform as Ford did with the Thunderbird. The Thunderbird is not styled along the same lines of the taurus, or focus, or escort, or anything else. It was designed as a modern rendition of a classic. NOT just another model in the lineup! And that's what the GTO has been reduced to..Just another in the lineup.. http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

It's not a very flattering way to do a tribute to a legend!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif



------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z28Wilson:
Hmmm. I guess our point is, it just seems like a cop-out to throw a Grand Prix front end on the thing and call it a day. Give the GTO its own identity styling-wise....no scoops or other gimmics necessary. The car deserves to be distinguished from the W-body, because it is most certainly NOT a W-body. If this is going to be Pontiac's flagship then just set it apart somewhat.

</font>

AMEN!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif



------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
To all of you that don't like the new GTO, click on the below link, scan down a few posts, and take a look at the photoshopped pic. Is that what you're after?

poncho,
I agree whole heartedly. These die-hard Pontiac fans want an antiquated iron block & head engine between the fenders or they're not happy. Compared to today's engines, the old Pontiac design is really not very good. Everytime you spun 'em past 5 grand you had to hold your breath in fear something was gonna shoot out the base, unless TONS of money was put into the engine. The old stuff is heavy and inefficient.
And I wish these guys would quit saying that Pontiac is ruining the car by putting a Chevy engine in it. I'm so sick of that. The LS1 is NOT a Chevy engine. It is a GM Corporate engine. It shares no parts or design with ANY of the previous versions of the small block Chevy. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.
And then they compare the car to the current Impala & Malibu. How can you compare those? GM bastardized those names onto ugly FWD, V-6, 4 door sedan cars. The new GTO is staying true to it's heritage.
I'm afraid people just don't understand or are too narrow minded.</font>

Again, I would have some disagreements about your comments about Pontiac engines, but I'll reserve that for another place & time http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

I strongly disagree with the notion that purists want unrealistic things from GM. You guys think that we want GM to get out the old PAD documents, Get out the old stamping dies, fire up the old tooling plants, and start pushing '68 GTO's out of the door at the pontiac central plant in michigan!!
http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

Did GM demolish the name of the GTO as BAD as the impala or monte carlo? No, I can't honestly sit here and say that. Could GM have done better? YES! I view this as a quickie, half-@ss attempt at a boost in sales, and re-lighting the fire of excitement at pontiac. http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif

It's sad that GM has fallen to this level of mediocrity. Like I've stated in previous posts, if Ford and Chrysler can do it, why can't we??




------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gtjeff:
Its great to see GM resurrect the GTO, but I believe more restyling should be done on the front end. My first car was a 67 tempest, I thought the front grill on it was an excellent design with cat eye grill and stacked headlights.
Those huge parking lights looked bad on Solstice and dont belong here. This front end says grand prix or grand am too much. It doesnt look like alot of effort was put into the restyle. They should take some of the old gto's more popular design elements (like ford did with the Thunderbird) and incorporate them into the new gto.
Also why cant GM make a copy of Holden's tooling and build these here in the us or canada instead? Many people are going to be ticked off when they go to buy the gto or ssr and find huge dealer markups. With no 2 door gp soon, there is no reason the market couldnt absorb 50,000 gto's. It is the goal of every manufacturer to maximize sales, wonder when gm will learn this?</font>

Can I get another AMEN!

[Sorry for all the back-to-back posts, I diddn't realize the thread was moving so fast!]

Here's my last comment {for today}. The new GTO should be designed such that Jim Wagners, John DeLorean, anybody who owned (or owns) a GTO, or anybody who loves GTO's can look at the car WITH NO BADGES!!! [Important point] http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif And say WOW! Is THAT A GTO! If someone has to look at the badges of the new car, IT'S NOT A GTO. http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

That's the most simple, and succinct way of describing the emotion behind the words. You shouldn't have to say...Well it says GTO on the side, and it's got a V8, and it's a 2-door, so I guess it's a GTO..

If you have to think that hard about it, you're rationalizing something that really isn't meant to be.

So my issue (and I think others are on board as well), is not spoilers or not, hood scoops or not, body cladding or not. The issue is the need for a car that screams GTO! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by THE Z-MAN:
It won't sell, i'm sorry. Even former Pontiac guru Herb Adams said he highly doubts it will do well. He said he hopes he's wrong.
Think about it people. Don't you think anyone wanting a rear wheel drive, V-8 powered Pontiac wouldn't they have bought a Trans/Am?

2000 Ram Air T/A
92 Firebird
79 Z/28

</font>

How would you explain Mustang's current success? Firebirds were selling about 24,000 cars per year, Grand Prix coupes were doing about the same, and now with both gone, there are 18-20,000 GTO's comming.

Seems that just having a GTO at those planned production levels won't fill the vaccum left buy discontinuing 40,000 coupes. I predict a shortage of GTOs & unfortunately dealers going crazy with markups as they are currently doing with TransAms & Z28s here in Dan Diego.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
...the Gutless 442, chebby SS, and Skylark...
</font>

Excuse me!?
Why have you bastardised those legendary names?



------------------
---Ted Krygier--&gt;

TED ONLINE (http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mylego0/)

GOATCRAZY,
RE: your disagreements about my comments about Pontiac engines: This looks like a good place & time.
I have been around the Pontiac hobby for around 20 years now. I can't remember how many Pontiac engines I have built. I've been racing the real Pontiac stuff since 1988. I've probably got every book, magazine, and/or article written about the Pontiac engine. And I happen to be an engineer for one of the Big 3 car companies. I know what they're capable of and what their downfalls are. I still think it's a great engine with one caveat: for a by-gone era. They do not stack up to a modern engine in any way, shape, or form. Sure you can get the same power (and more) from them then, say, the LS1. But what do you have to give up? Driveability, efficiency, mileage, longevity, not to mention they spew tons of emissions into the atmosphere. Plus, they make a car nose-heavy. The Pontiac engine isn't exactly light.
And the aftermarket hasn't exactly gotten behind Pontiac. Where's the sequential tuned port fuel injection kits for these engines, or a distributorless ignition system? Or other high tech stuff. Non-existant, unless you want a super-small company (read, 1 guy) cobbing something up in his garage.
These engines were developed in the early and mid- 1950s, for crying out loud!
I'm sorry, time marches on.

And about the purists. I consider myself a purist. If it had a Pontiac engine when it was built, then it damn well better have one now, otherwise the car was hacked up.
But I'm visiting some GTO boards to gauge GTO owners opinions of the new car (Performance Year's, for example). Many of the owners have expressed quite clearly that if it doesn't have a Pontiac engine in it, it's not a Pontiac. They want their 400 back. What a shame. To be living in the past, with blinders on, never opening your mind to new and better ideas.
Maybe GM Powertrain should bore & stroke the LS1 to 400 CI, paint it blue, and call it a day. That's the only resonable alternative

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
Post it. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif Before and after. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

Allright, here it is:

BEFORE:
http://ohok.com/monarofront.jpg
http://ohok.com/monarorear.jpg

AFTER:
http://ohok.com/gtofront.jpg
http://ohok.com/gtorear.jpg

Obviously there's not a lot happening in the back, but I moved the license plate, added dual exhaust, and removed all Holden logos. Same on the front, plus the obvious changes.

Let me know if it's any good or if you have suggestions http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

GT

Thats nice work but it could still use more stuff all around. I still like !!TED!!'s ideas, but yours spark design interest.

Is this pic new or old? http://www.motortrend.com/feb02/gto/GTO.jpg
URL and story with it are old but I don't think I've seen the pic before.. front end looks like !!TED!!'s and the headlights are from a Pontiac G-Force ( http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/02images/g-force1.jpg )

GT

Both of those are from a while ago and actually look alot like the "offical" GTO. None of them look like a GTO at all though with no cues.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
GOATCRAZY,
RE: your disagreements about my comments about Pontiac engines: This looks like a good place & time.
...I know what they're capable of and what their downfalls are. I still think it's a great engine with one caveat: for a by-gone era. They do not stack up to a modern engine in any way, shape, or form. Sure you can get the same power (and more) from them then, say, the LS1. </font>

My point of disagreement was not to argue whether or not the '69 Pontiac 400 is a better engine than the '96 350...That would be LUDICROUS! There's ~30 + years of development in between! My point of contention was FOR THE ERA, the pontiac 400 was an excellent engine compared to the chevy or others. There's no way that one could compare the two. It just happens that Chevy was the more popular powertrain, so it was chosen to be the "corporate" boilerplate for future designs.

I'll state again, I'm not one of those guys with their heads in the sand like ostriches ignoring the world around them...

I just refuse to settle for anything but the best when it comes to Pontiac! http://web.camaross.com/bb/cool.gif



------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 305fan:
BMW's look good- no one would call them beautiful or sexy though-
but they are a true high performnace car with
a rep Pontiac would kill for</font>

say what? i will appreciate you not speaking for me in the future. i absolutely love the current 3 series BMW styling and find it extremely sexy. more sexy than any modern ferrari for sure and one of the top 10 most sexiest cars made today. PERIOD.

A word from downunder. I have been a fan of American Muscle for years, as long as I have know about the existance of F-bodies I have wanted one and have now for some years. I felt for everyone in America, myself and every other F-body owner in the world when GM decided to kill them. I felt sorry for everyone over there when it looked like you had no replacement, unlike us here with a very healthy V8 market.

I have read most of these post and have come to a couple of conclusions. A. Most if any have not been lucky to see this car parked infront of them, or B, are just to picky for your own good.

What GM have offered you is a real size RWD V8 with a heap of power a back seat and trunk. Making it as practical as it is powerful. Not to mention all the spares and support you need for a car.

The idea that it looks like a Grand prix, well wait until you see them parked side by side before you make that opinion. You are taking about a car that is bigger then the original GTO.

The car is not that overpriced, not much more than a brand new Trans AM. Try buying one here for less than $70,000 Aus. At least they are in the market there for a reasonable price.

If you want it to look tuff then do it, companies like SLP are already doing the work for you.

The idea that calling it a GTO is some sought of crime and they have not followed the ideals of the "GTO" legend is rediculous. Where have they gone wrong. Pontiac trade mark front end with the split grill, RWD, V8, excellant handling package, from GM anyway, 4 spot front brakes with 12" rotors, duel spot backend, so you have some way to stop the freight train.

Given that GM where going to leave you with nothing I think you have done pretty well, don't you.

I don't mean to sound offencive by this, but there seems to be a lot of misconception about the sought of car you are getting.

Chevrolet engines and stuff are IT, thats all I'm saying. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif For now anyway. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Is the GTO a GTO mechanically?? Yes. Is the GTO a GTO in looks?? No. We want both. Its not too much to ask, I mean they didn't have to make it look like the others. Where is the creativity in the design?? And we know they need that. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif Maybe you guys need to take another look at it or keep looking until you see. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 25, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by morb|d:
say what? i will appreciate you not speaking for me in the future. i absolutely love the current 3 series BMW styling and find it extremely sexy. more sexy than any modern ferrari for sure and one of the top 10 most sexiest cars made today. PERIOD.</font>

You feel a 3 series BMW is more sxy looking than a 360 Modena or 575M Maranello. Yea the new 3 series are very very nice and the M3 is a killer car but compared to a Ferrari... BMW styling is kinda concervative twin round headlights in a swept headlight lens, 2 kidney bean grills, a rounded block style bumber and a large horizonatal opening in the lower front faschia accented by foglights at either end. That style has been around for a very long time. Not a flame I just found this comment interesting.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AussieGTA:
A word from downunder. I have been a fan of American Muscle for years, as long as I have know about the existance of F-bodies I have wanted one and have now for some years. I felt for everyone in America, myself and every other F-body owner in the world when GM decided to kill them. I felt sorry for everyone over there when it looked like you had no replacement, unlike us here with a very healthy V8 market.

I have read most of these post and have come to a couple of conclusions. A. Most if any have not been lucky to see this car parked infront of them, or B, are just to picky for your own good.

What GM have offered you is a real size RWD V8 with a heap of power a back seat and trunk. Making it as practical as it is powerful. Not to mention all the spares and support you need for a car.

The idea that it looks like a Grand prix, well wait until you see them parked side by side before you make that opinion. You are taking about a car that is bigger then the original GTO.

The car is not that overpriced, not much more than a brand new Trans AM. Try buying one here for less than $70,000 Aus. At least they are in the market there for a reasonable price.

If you want it to look tuff then do it, companies like SLP are already doing the work for you.

The idea that calling it a GTO is some sought of crime and they have not followed the ideals of the "GTO" legend is rediculous. Where have they gone wrong. Pontiac trade mark front end with the split grill, RWD, V8, excellant handling package, from GM anyway, 4 spot front brakes with 12" rotors, duel spot backend, so you have some way to stop the freight train.

Given that GM where going to leave you with nothing I think you have done pretty well, don't you.

I don't mean to sound offencive by this, but there seems to be a lot of misconception about the sought of car you are getting.</font>


AHH this man knows what he is talking about!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 99SilverSS:
You feel a 3 series BMW is more sxy looking than a 360 Modena or 575M Maranello. Yea the new 3 series are very very nice and the M3 is a killer car but compared to a Ferrari... BMW styling is kinda concervative twin round headlights in a swept headlight lens, 2 kidney bean grills, a rounded block style bumber and a large horizonatal opening in the lower front faschia accented by foglights at either end. That style has been around for a very long time. Not a flame I just found this comment interesting.</font>

the theme has been around forever, yes. the current styling is pretty current however. and I'm not even talking about the M3 although its one inclreadible machine. the 360 and the 550/575M are probabobly more conservative than the bimmer considering they ARE ferrari and that has been many people's gripes with them (if you can call those "gripes"). Don't get me wrong, I like the clean lines of those two much more than farrari of the 80s and place them within the same top 10.

my original comment was to tell you to not assume that your own tastes completely conisided with everyone elses. that is all.

also, aussies are funny. correct. but funny.

I think it is great that GM is at least making something new that has performance like a F-body it's a whole lot better than a front wheel drive p.o.s. something that you can buy off the show room floor and stomp rustangs!

BRING BACK THE F-BODY

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AussieGTA:
A word from downunder. I have been a fan of American Muscle for years, as long as I have know about the existance of F-bodies I have wanted one and have now for some years. I felt for everyone in America, myself and every other F-body owner in the world when GM decided to kill them. I felt sorry for everyone over there when it looked like you had no replacement, unlike us here with a very healthy V8 market.

I have read most of these post and have come to a couple of conclusions. A. Most if any have not been lucky to see this car parked infront of them, or B, are just to picky for your own good.

What GM have offered you is a real size RWD V8 with a heap of power a back seat and trunk. Making it as practical as it is powerful. Not to mention all the spares and support you need for a car.

The idea that it looks like a Grand prix, well wait until you see them parked side by side before you make that opinion. You are taking about a car that is bigger then the original GTO.

The car is not that overpriced, not much more than a brand new Trans AM. Try buying one here for less than $70,000 Aus. At least they are in the market there for a reasonable price.

If you want it to look tuff then do it, companies like SLP are already doing the work for you.

The idea that calling it a GTO is some sought of crime and they have not followed the ideals of the "GTO" legend is rediculous. Where have they gone wrong. Pontiac trade mark front end with the split grill, RWD, V8, excellant handling package, from GM anyway, 4 spot front brakes with 12" rotors, duel spot backend, so you have some way to stop the freight train.

Given that GM where going to leave you with nothing I think you have done pretty well, don't you.

I don't mean to sound offencive by this, but there seems to be a lot of misconception about the sought of car you are getting.</font>

Welcome to the board AussieGTA, & don't worry about being offensive. We talk like this all the time. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Welcome to the board AussieGTA, & don't worry about being offensive. We talk like this all the time. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

we do? i don't think we're THAT civilized. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by morb|d (edited June 26, 2002).]

thanks for the welcome, just don't like to offend on the first post, doesn't make for good conversations later. From then on its open, lol http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Sure we are glad we are getting a car like this from GM, we just want a GTO not a 360HP Grand Am/Prix.

It looks great, I want one. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Any of this added crap is just going to make the car more expensive, which I don't want. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif I plan on buying one, instead of an LS1 F-body. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

As far as looking like a GTO (http://stevil.easy48.com/images/temp/gto_01.gif), it does! Does it sort of look like a Grand Prix? A little bit, but thats not a bad thing. We haven't had muscle cars for awhile, and the term sleeper seems lost these days. I'm 23, and I'm ready for a nice coupe like this, it looks nice.

What I'm worried about is price and performance. I looked at the pic, it looks good, and thats that. GM could have ruined the Monaro and made some hideous car! We're lucky.

Also keep in mind that we begged for this car, and now we're getting it. I can't believe how many schmucks complain, and are only concerned with the looks of the car.

Sometimes, less is more.

------------------
FormulaV8.com (http://www.FormulaV8.com) · 1994 Formula · A4 · 3.23
13.45 @ 102.5 MPH w/ 1.9 60' | 267 rwhp | 307 tq/lbs | 3535 lbs
"I know for a fact he is NOT an Easter bunny"

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
Sure we are glad we are getting a car like this from GM, we just want a GTO not a 360HP Grand Am/Prix.</font>

Exactly! I don't know if I'm reading the pulse of the posts correctly, but I get the feeling that GM has driven people to the point of despiration so that they will accept ANYTHING remotely V-8 RWD performance oriented! http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif
I truly believe that the overall mood would be totally different if this happened in '96 when the F-body was in full swing, the corvette was also, and the Impala SS (the real one) was on the streets.

It appears to me that people are acting like little desparate teenagers that are just happy to play hide the salami with anything with two legs! http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

What a number of people are saying is: raise the standards bar! And accept NOTHING less than excellence! Don't let the current situation change your level of integrity. Like I've said before: if you look at the car WITHOUT badges and say "That's a GTO" then it's a GTO. If not, then it ain't. And we should accept nothing less than the best. Especially not a hurry-up, slapped-together sham of a car that they are proposing.

The ending comments of the gent from Australia put it well: You should be GLAD to be getting a car like this given your current situation.

WRONG! We should let these pieces of **** ROT on the dealer's lots and buy all the mauraders, thunderbirds, and ford '49's we can get our hands on and give GM the BIRD!

Maybe then they might get the picture, but if we coddle them along with constant sales then they think everything's OK. We need to send a message. A strong one.

http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
It appears to me that people are acting like little desparate teenagers that are just happy to play hide the salami with anything with two legs! http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

What a number of people are saying is: raise the standards bar! And accept NOTHING less than excellence!</font>

I haven't heard one person jump on the band wagon for this car just because it's the only option out there. Have you ever read a review for the Monaro or been reading any posts pertaining to it in the last 6 months? What about this car is short of excellence? You are out of your mind! Go ahead and take your underpowered Marauder, Thunderbird or 49 (btw, where can you buy this concept car?), you're going to be too far behind the guys in the GTOs for them to see you with your little bird hanging out the window. The only thing that's been adolescent about this topic are the remarks by people like yourself. Get over it--your "dream girl" isn't retro and doesn't have a hood scoop! Sorry to disappoint you and your salami. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

QUOTE FROM IZ28: "We just want a GTO not a 360HP Grand Am/Prix."
Then how come everybody fell all over the G8? That was a high HP GP. And the GTO will be better; better chassis, balance, handling, braking, etc.


QUOTE FROM GOATCRAZY: "Like I've said before: if you look at the car WITHOUT badges and say "That's a GTO" then it's a GTO. If not, then it ain't."
If you removed the badges from old GTOs, then you would think that they were Tempests or Lemanses. So what's the difference today?

Why does it have to be like that again. Why do they all have to look the same. Originality?? Creativity??

When are you 7 or 8 people gonna get it?!?
It's called "brand recognition". It's been around for decades. Look at any manufacturer. All their cars have similarities. This is so people who don't know anything about cars can easily identify a car as a certain make. And Pontiac has one of the strongest brand identities. What company wouldn't capitalize on that? Why would you make a Pontiac not look like a Pontiac?
You guys are fighting a battle that's just not worth fighting. It certainly is not going to sway anyones' opinions or change anything.

Yeah, but I dont think we're going to sway their opinion either. Whether the current GTO looks like an older GTO or not is debateable, some say they look similar to a '70. But, the older GTO's looked exactly like all the other Pontiac's of the time, the LeMans or the Tempest. Why shouldn't the new GTO look like a GP or GA? The old GTOs looked a lot more like a LeMans or a Tempest then the new GTO looks like a GP.

They could've done a lot worse then to improve the looks of an already sharp car (the GP).

------------------
1988 Pontiac Firebird Formula
TBI 305 A4 (boy do I want a manual..)
It ain't too fast, but it makes for a nice first car http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Big_Z (edited June 26, 2002).]

Big Z,
You're right. The "pro" faction is not going to sway the "con" faction. I know this. I'm just getting tired of hashing it and re-hashing it over and over again.
We're all entitled to our opinion. That's what makes this country great.
And I agree with you on the brand identity issue. GTOs back then looked very similar to the other Pontiacs. Just as the new one does now.
I said it before, I don't understand the "con" crowd.

There is no denying the platform, that america GM swayed away from in the 80s/90s in favour of the FWD platforms it was trying to push...
It has proven itself time and time again, on the international stage, with record sales figures, it has left Ford Australia with two black eyes and scratching their heads, and theatens to spread like an epidemic throughout the world....

It is my friends none other that the V-Car GM2800 platform, and has been developed by australia into so much more than its humble beginings as the opel omega/catera, they are now developing the 4WD version + Ls1 , now thats gonna be something else...

The GTO is just the begining ,,, be prepared as GM realizes what this car is and becomes at least a big chunk of GM platforms including the 4-door and Ute , maybe even the return of the caprice long wheelbase.



[This message has been edited by Ude-lose (edited June 26, 2002).]

Why are you posting the same thing in multiple threads?

It was meant to be for this thread... but i first posted it in the other-one..accidently.

Ok, my final, FINAL thought on GTO styling. This is Pontiac's flagship right? Style it that way. Look at Corvette. Corvette carries no "Chevy styling cues" (whatever they may be) but still looks great, and is differentiable from everything else from a mile away. And, it's still a clean-looking design. If you need to have Pontiac cues in it, there has to be more than one or two ways to do a split grill. http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif All it takes is a little imagination. The Con crowd is disappointed because this car, at least from the sketch, does not say "I have a GTO and this car is something special, something unique!" Personally if I had one of only 20,000 built I would expect it to not be easily confused with your run-of-the-mill Grand Prix coming down the road. I guess that's just me, another in the minority apparently.... http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

[This message has been edited by Z28Wilson (edited June 27, 2002).]

I guess the only way to answer that Q is to see one on the street ...

OK so the argument is it doesn't look like a GTO............As F-body lovers, can someone go down the street for me and park a 4th gen next to a 1st Gen and tell me, where do they look the same. I'm interested to know. From memory the 1st gens weren't a hatch back for a start. Walking to mates place to check............................................. ...........Nope. Its called a generation change. This is the new generation of GTO, are you complaining about GM's change in style with the F-body???? Then why the reborn A-body.

The comment about the Vettes not being the same year after year, Look at the shape, compared to the second gen vette and all others from then on, very similar. High front fenders, long sloping bonnet, short rear with twin round tail lights. Where are they not the same, unlike the F-body that changed big time from the 3rd gen on.

To Goatcrazy, I did not mean to imply that the GTO was all you have so take it or leave it because its all you have. Its a bloody good car and you should be proud to have it parked in your garage, and after having nothing you could not have wished for better.

------------------
88 Trans AM GTA

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AussieGTA:
OK so the argument is it doesn't look like a GTO............As F-body lovers, can someone go down the street for me and park a 4th gen next to a 1st Gen and tell me, where do they look the same. I'm interested to know. From memory the 1st gens weren't a hatch back for a start. Walking to mates place to check............................................. ...........Nope. Its called a generation change. This is the new generation of GTO, are you complaining about GM's change in style with the F-body???? .....</font>

Ah, but park it next to a 2nd gen RS, split-bumper and tell me you can't see the similarities....there are dozens.

Why make your new found "halo" car look like a dated, five year old design only to satisfy some dogma about corporate styling? Thank God Chevy doesn't with the Corvette. Sure NO-ONE expected GM to totally re-design the car, but this "safe" approach to car design and marketing is a formula for failure....unless you're all happy to drive forgettable, cookie cutter, plain brown wrappers.


[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 27, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
When are you 7 or 8 people gonna get it?!?
It's called "brand recognition". It's been around for decades. Look at any manufacturer. All their cars have similarities. This is so people who don't know anything about cars can easily identify a car as a certain make. And Pontiac has one of the strongest brand identities. What company wouldn't capitalize on that? Why would you make a Pontiac not look like a Pontiac?
You guys are fighting a battle that's just not worth fighting. It certainly is not going to sway anyones' opinions or change anything.</font>

HuJass,
Could you help me out by showing me which Ford product looks just like a Mustang?
And which other Ford product closely resembles the new T-bird?
And the Focus is being confused with...?

Aside from the Blue Oval that appears somewhere on the front, and headlights on the front as opposed to the side of the car, I don't see it. These models set themself uniquely apart from one another, and it brings in a broader range of potential buyer, IMHO. [edit]

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AussieGTA:
To Goatcrazy, I did not mean to imply that the GTO was all you have so take it or leave it because its all you have. Its a bloody good car and you should be proud to have it parked in your garage, and after having nothing you could not have wished for better.

</font>

To Aussie, and others. Let me repeat an earlier statement: If the Holden came over as a HOLDEN, or a Pontiac "biscuit" then I would be one of the FIRST to test drive it & probably put one in the driveway. Contrary to popular opinion, I have researched this vehicle, and find it to be an excellent performer. It's actually what I'm looking for, [and GM needs], a 2-door, midsize V-8 vehicle that's still practical as a daily driver, and limited family vehicle. AND it comes with a six speed. One of my biggest gripes is that you can't get an american mid-size car with a stick, especially not four doors [unless you count the Ford SHO (do they still make that thing? I thought the grand prix GTP embarrased that thing off the road!). http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

So, my [and others] contention is not that the car is not a worthy performer. Our contention is that the way & form that GM is proposing to bring back the GTO name is less than flattering to the legend behind that name. That car simply does not look like a GTO.

And we believe that "integrating" that nameplate into the current lineup [the same way that it was in the '60's] is not the way to go! We are asking for [I promise I won't say this again] the same thing Ford did with the Thunderbird. A complete retro design as a tribute to the legend. Not a means of broadening the Pontiac lineup (which would rationalize the integration of current styling) but a low-volume retro-car to stir up brand excitement w/in the consumer!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
We are asking for [I promise I won't say this again] the same thing Ford did with the Thunderbird. A complete retro design as a tribute to the legend. Not a means of broadening the Pontiac lineup (which would rationalize the integration of current styling) but a low-volume retro-car to stir up brand excitement w/in the consumer!
</font>

Yeah, like the PT Cruiser and New Beetle? We all know what happened to them after the novelty wore off. Which is exactly what retro is, a novelty. That same Thunderbird also only comes in an automatic, runs high 15 qtr miles and not tuned to be a sporty drive at all. Just something to cruise around in and turn heads until everyone's seen it. Being such a devoted GTO fan, this is what you want? After reading all of those reviews, you should know the Monaro embodies everything the GTO is about and is a worthy of wearing the badge over here.

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Yeah, like the PT Cruiser and New Beetle? We all know what happened to them after the novelty wore off. Which is exactly what retro is, a novelty. That same Thunderbird also only comes in an automatic, runs high 15 qtr miles and not tuned to be a sporty drive at all. Just something to cruise around in and turn heads until everyone's seen it. Being such a devoted GTO fan, this is what you want? After reading all of those reviews, you should know the Monaro embodies everything the GTO is about and is a worthy of wearing the badge over here.
</font>

Allow me to interject one little difference in the models to which you are refering.

The PTCruiser and Beetle are both full continuous production vehicles which are intended to sell as many units as possible, based on demand and orders. The "GrandGTO" (I better learn to type this), is currently a 20K unit, fixed volume, market entry car.

AND AGAIN, WHO THE FLIP ASKED FOR A "GTO"??? Apparently, the same mystical guy who asked for it to be a full-blown retro-design from scratch too. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

PS - as for the T-bird, I don't think anybody has really ever touted it as a high-performance car, the Mustang has that role at Ford. But it is still a sporty RWD V8 with a drop-top! http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by johnmon94:
I think it is great that GM is at least making something new that has performance like a F-body it's a whole lot better than a front wheel drive p.o.s. something that you can buy off the show room floor and stomp rustangs!
</font>

Well, this new Monaro will have performance much better than Fbody in terms of acceleration (at least it should), especially in handling, and braking.

I am really looking forward to this car, it will be the best performer (next to Corvette) of all GM cars currently produced.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
Sure we are glad we are getting a car like this from GM, we just want a GTO not a 360HP Grand Am/Prix.</font>


What a whiner! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Given the schedule and the quick response GM made to bring this car over, there isn't any time / money to invest into this project. Besides, they do plan on a limited run of these cars, so it does not make sense to invest tens if not hundreds of millions to re-style the car.

Perhaps I will agree with you on the GTO name - they should've simply not used it, that's all.

The car is a great package. It will be well received.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevil:
I can't believe how many schmucks complain, and are only concerned with the looks of the car.</font>

There aren't a lot of shmucks who complain, as a mattter of fact there are few. But the few shmucks who do complain (IZ28 one of them http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif) complain the loudest.

Besides, you don't read much rationale in those complaints, it's simply a continous, repetitive use of a single statement, by a volume of which the schmuks hope to establish a point.

Very equivalent of me saying that space shuttle looks like a commercial jet. And now imagine me repeating this in every post, about 10 times. And if you bring in any counterpoint thoughts, I will simply say "we want a space rocket/transport/ship, not a BOEING." End of reasoning. You get the picture of what is really going on :wink:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
I don't know if I'm reading the pulse of the posts correctly, but I get the feeling that GM has driven people to the point of despiration so that they will accept ANYTHING remotely V-8 RWD performance oriented!</font>

I don't know if I'm reading the pulse of these posts correctly, but I get the feeling that some people drove themselves to the point such denial that they view Holden GTO as only a remote V-8 RWD performance...

I also get the feeling that some people won't accept anything new unless it shares all styling and body parts with its original sibling.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
Why does it have to be like that again. Why do they all have to look the same. Originality?? Creativity??</font>

My goodness, just because it has a similar front grille and headlights, all of the sudden these are 2 identical cars.

Ever wonder why BMW 3 series and 5 series looks similar? Or why do all Audis have similar looking front end? Yet you won't be confusing Audi A8 for Audi A6. You won't go complaining that "why on earth did they bring A8 if it looks exactly like A6."

Brand recognition is a good thing. And this coming Pontiac GTO will deliver many things that will bring the image of the Pontiac up.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
HuJass,
Could you help me out by showing me which Ford product looks just like a Mustang?
And which other Ford product closely resembles the new T-bird?
And the Focus is being confused with...?

</font>

First off, I said "all their cars have similarities". I did not say "looks just like", as you imply with your 1st statement about the Mustang. Nor did I talk about the degree of similarities. Just that there are some.
Maybe the Fords don't look similar. Maybe that's their problem; why they are having a tough time this year with sales. They don't have any brand recognition. Unless you knew Fords, you wouldn't know what kind of car it was (if you weren't a car person).That's a whole other discussion that I'm not going to get into but just to say that check out buisiness mags & papers. They are all saying Ford isn't doing too well this year.
And their trucks all look the same. It's hard to tell an Explorer from a Expedition nowadays.
Lincolns all have similar styling cues. That big, toothy chrome grille and the big chrome liscense plate surround.

And I know the T-bird looks nothing like the rest of their cars. But what's going to happen when everybody sees this car on a regular basis. It's gonna be old news and it will fade away. Or will they redesign using styling from the '58? Retro is just a fad.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
...That car simply does not look like a GTO.

And we believe that "integrating" that nameplate into the current lineup [the same way that it was in the '60's] is not the way to go! We are asking for [I promise I won't say this again] the same thing Ford did with the Thunderbird. A complete retro design as a tribute to the legend. Not a means of broadening the Pontiac lineup (which would rationalize the integration of current styling) but a low-volume retro-car to stir up brand excitement w/in the consumer!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

</font>

This is not a slam, but a friendly debate, so look at this that way. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Your entire argument as I understand it is that it doesn't look like a Pontiac Tempest or Pontiac LeMans (I'm no longer calling it a GTO look because it was a package on those cars). If GTO had continued over the past 30 years instead of being MIA all this time, do you feel it would look like a car of the 60's?

Pontiac has changed over the years. Grand Prix is the car that looked much like a fancy Tempest once, and look how it has changed. In your T-Bird example (which though I think is a nice design, I prefer the sinister look of the MN12 SCs), Thunderbird was it's own car like with it's own design being a separate car line from anything else. I feel that is what you and a few others are not taking into account. GTO was an option package on an existing car like the SS to Chevelle, the R/T to Charger, the GT to Torino, the GNX to Cutlass, etc.

It seems that what you are asking for is a mid-60s Pontiac Tempest retro-car or a car that flies in the face of Pontiac's current family of design. Before you slam the idea of a design family, look at Pontiac's 1965 lineup. This isn't a concept that just popped up in recent years.

As far as the public taking whatever scraps are thrown at them, I feel that is a ridiculous statement, and here's why. Currently Mustang is available & selling very well. If you hurry, you still may find a dealer with a new Z28 around. GTO isn't even out yet.

However, by the time GTO is in dealers, the new Mustang will be only months away, Chrysler will have it's 1st LX cars out, Mazda will have a modest priced 4 passenger RWD performance car, as will Infinity & Nissan. All will be competing in very close to the same market.

So the idea that somehow the only reason I or any other person willing to spend the next 4 to 5 years making car payments to buy a GTO is because GM starved us performance-wise, while other choices are & will be readily available (now & in the future) isn't very honest.

I said it before & I'll say it again. Styling is subjective. I think Mustang is gaudy & a tad overstyled. But I apprieciate it & praise Ford for investing to keep Mustang fresh & realize that at least Team Mustang is doing things right at Ford. I'm not going to slam Mustangs (I do that on the street http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif ). But I can separate my taste & realize what a car is about.

The whole point is when we look at historic names, we need to look at what the original was about. Some cars like Mustang was about high style for little money. Thunderbird was about luxury & sportiness. GTO was about putting a monster motor in a lightweight economy car. Looks change over the years, yet Mustang kept it's purpose (though I question the 71-73 versions), T-Bird kept it's purpose despite a variety of incarnations. And based on GTO's original purpose, it is on target.

Yes it looks like a Grand Prix. In pictures it has the profile of a Cavalier. In light of the GTO's that looked like a boring economic Tempest with a blackout grill, I'd say it carrys the same spirit as the originals. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Just the same, didn't virtually everyone here praise the swoopy, clean look of the G-Force (a thinly veiled look of the next Grand Prix) on this site no more than 5 months ago?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
So, my [and others] contention is not that the car is not a worthy performer. Our contention is that the way & form that GM is proposing to bring back the GTO name is less than flattering to the legend behind that name. That car simply does not look like a GTO.

And we believe that "integrating" that nameplate into the current lineup [the same way that it was in the '60's] is not the way to go! We are asking for [I promise I won't say this again] the same thing Ford did with the Thunderbird. A complete retro design as a tribute to the legend. Not a means of broadening the Pontiac lineup (which would rationalize the integration of current styling) but a low-volume retro-car to stir up brand excitement w/in the consumer!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

</font>

Actually this was a great post, and it gives some insight where most con are coming from.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your side so well.

QUOTE BY guionM:
"didn't virtually everyone here praise the swoopy, clean look of the G-Force (a thinly veiled look of the next Grand Prix) on this site no more than 5 months ago?"

Yes they did. And that car can't hold a candle to the new GTO (in both styling & performance). I feel the G-force is not very attractive.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
AND AGAIN, WHO THE FLIP ASKED FOR A "GTO"??? Apparently, the same mystical guy who asked for it to be a full-blown retro-design from scratch too. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif </font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
We are asking for [I promise I won't say this again] the same thing Ford did with the Thunderbird. A complete retro design as a tribute to the legend.</font>

I was waiting for the raionalization that those are higher production number cars, but the principle is the same. Remember the Plymouth Prowler? Besides, retro is still not for everyone and one vehicle is on the way already in the SSR. And the fact it is limited in production is more of a short term issue. Once this stop-gap is filled, I'm sure GM would welcome a car they can sell in higher numbers. Then what? You try to back peddle from retro to mass appeal?

As far as who asked for it? Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup? They had no performance car at all beyond the Corvette. The Monaro was available and made a lot of sense for the situation. It was a resurrection of a muscle car in itself, so the usage of GTO is fitting. Having a lot of recognizable brands is a strong point for GM, why shouldn't they use it? The application is right. This isn't comparable to the current usage of Impala. Most of all, I think GM wanted another "GTO" as evident by the '99 concept.

[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 27, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
QUOTE BY guionM:
"didn't virtually everyone here praise the swoopy, clean look of the G-Force (a thinly veiled look of the next Grand Prix) on this site no more than 5 months ago?"

Yes they did. And that car can't hold a candle to the new GTO (in both styling & performance). I feel the G-force is not very attractive.
</font>

And we will conclude this little iteration with the observation that...

it was called...G-FORCE!!!
it was not called...GTO!!!

Hope it was at least good exercise for you guys' fingers typing all that rhetoric about such an insignificant point. How does the G-Force have anything to do with GM pimping the GTO name? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
As far as who asked for it? Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup? They had no performance car at all beyond the Corvette.</font>

I repeat the original question... it is really a simple one IMHO...
WHO ASKED FOR A GTO? Not a "car like this", or "a performer of this level",
but a GTO by that name. Who ever asked for it?

To quote you verbatim; "Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup?"
I challenge you to prove that any of us (who oppose the use of GTO badges) have not been anything but complimentary about the car itself. Awesome drivetrain and handling, nice refinements, etc. SHOW ME WHERE ONE OF US HAS SLANDERED THIS CAR FOR ANYTHING, OTHER THAN THE NAME IT IS BEING GIVEN. AND REMEBER - our critique of the front end/styling is based on the name it was given, not the design in and of itself. If it wasn't being called a GTO, we'd have no problems with nose/styling as it is.

OK - Now, here's the answer to the magical question above...
NO-FREAKIN'-BODY ASKED FOR A GTO!!!!!!

GM - in it's ultimate wisdom, (the same wisdom that gave you 421 FWD V6 models next year and NO Camaro), decided FOR us all to use(er make that "PIMP") the GTO name for economic benefit.
THAT IS MY PROBLEM - NOT THE CAR. Is this too difficult a concept to comprehend?

I swear, you guys can't even see that you are really taking out some kind of subliminal frustrations on those of us who still are thinking clearly and with passion about your present and future GM products. Living only for today is not always wise, guys!


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
What a whiner! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Given the schedule and the quick response GM made to bring this car over, there isn't any time / money to invest into this project. Besides, they do plan on a limited run of these cars, so it does not make sense to invest tens if not hundreds of millions to re-style the car.

Perhaps I will agree with you on the GTO name - they should've simply not used it, that's all.

The car is a great package. It will be well received.</font>

muckz,
If you agree about the name issue, (which BTW is waaayyy cool http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif ) why did you write all the other stuff about "whiners" and what a "great performer" it is and all?

I'm glad you see the point about name pimpin', but then to bash the people who feel the same way is like playing on both teams or selling your sister or something. I don't get it.

'66 PONTIAC Le Mans
http://www.cars-on-line.com/7600/66lemans7625-A.jpg

'66 PONTIAC GTO
http://www.cars-on-line.com/2sdirectory/66gto5686-A.jpg

GTO's have always looked similar to other pontiac cars. It the ballz under the hood that count.

All pontiacs of this era had similar grilles.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
I repeat the original question... it is really a simple one IMHO...
WHO ASKED FOR A GTO? Not a "car like this", or "a performer of this level",
but a GTO by that name. Who ever asked for it?
</font>

Hey, why don't you continue reading my post after that comment; I elaborated and answered your question. It's obvious your the one sniffing for little soundbytes to blow up on--"see, I told ya so! I said GTO, not this kind of car!" I knew it would be coming when I typed that sentence. Thanks for not disappointing.

Regardless, majority like this new incarnation, think the name fits, and don't see the need for such extreme overprotection of the GTO moniker.

Your word of caution is overstated. What are all of us so "subliminally frustrated" about? We're paranoid about not having another performance car and are jumping on the closest thing we can get? Others have listed the large number of cars on the horizon in this segment. I don't think anyone is panicking. Being a fan of performance cars in general, whichever car I go with next will have to earn my dollar and will not be selected on name alone. Maybe you're just overly conscious (or even subliminally http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif ) of the fact that manufacturers rely on name recognition for some of their cars? "Pimping it out" would be tacking GTO onto a S/C Grand Am or Bonneville. The car receiving this designation couldn't be more fitting.

We all appreciate your enthusiasm for muscle cars, even if it is to the extreme right of the situation. Unfortunately, most of us see eye-to-eye with the guys calling the shots on this one. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

That was then this is now. It should be unique looking especially for a return after all these years.

------------------
Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. :)

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Hey, why don't you continue reading my post after that comment; I elaborated and answered your question. </font>

Jerry, I did read your whole post as I do every time, and I did so with an open mind. But IMHO, you did not answer the question poised. "Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup?" is not an answer. Nowhere else in your entire post did you give a name or group that actually requested a car named "GTO". In fact, you wrote, "Most of all, I think GM wanted another "GTO" as evident by the '99 concept." Yeah, I agree. It seems that is exactly the case - screw what the public wants, screw what the collectors want, screw what we want, we'll get what they(GM) want us to have - as usual.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Regardless, majority like this new incarnation, think the name fits, and don't see the need for such extreme overprotection of the GTO moniker. </font>

And being the armchair quarterback that you make me out to be, I'll offer that this same attitude was present during the "reintroductions" and subsequent redesigns of the Nova, Impala, Malibu, Monte Carlo, and how many others a few years back. Boy, am I glad we didn't "overprotect" those names... I'm sure proud of them as they stand now.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Your word of caution is overstated. What are all of us so "subliminally frustrated" about? We're paranoid about not having another performance car and are jumping on the closest thing we can get? Others have listed the large number of cars on the horizon in this segment. I don't think anyone is panicking. Being a fan of performance cars in general, whichever car I go with next will have to earn my dollar and will not be selected on name alone. Maybe you're just overly conscious (or even subliminally http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif ) of the fact that manufacturers rely on name recognition for some of their cars? "Pimping it out" would be tacking GTO onto a S/C Grand Am or Bonneville. The car receiving this designation couldn't be more fitting.</font>

You are on the cusp of seeing a car that we all are passionate about go away... indefinitely. Even if most here act like they are living with it - I bet it really bothers them - hell, I don't own one but I'm deeply wissed about it. If you don't/won't miss it when it's gone, then why are you even coming to this board? All I am trying to point out is that you should expend energy trying to make a change in GM's philosophy, not trying to "accomodate" or "be happy with" their offerings to you.

As for your "large number of cars on the horizon in this segment...", get ready for lots more copy/paste designs and conservative approaches like this GTO/Monaro one. You are giving GM your stamp of approval for this technique right here. Hope one of 'em isn't the F5 my friend.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
We all appreciate your enthusiasm for muscle cars, even if it is to the extreme right of the situation. Unfortunately, most of us see eye-to-eye with the guys calling the shots on this one.</font>

I wonder if anybody "saw eye-to-eye with the guys calling the shots on this one" when the F4 was being introduced? Real smash hit that was, eh? Yup, the General always knows best. So nobody else can see this pattern of "I'll take whatever the General offers me."? Wow. Hard to see how the F4 ended up like it did, huh.



[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
I wonder if anybody "saw eye-to-eye with the guys calling the shots on this one" when the F4 was being introduced? Real smash hit that was, eh? Yup, the General always knows best. So nobody else can see this pattern of "I'll take whatever the General offers me."? Wow. Hard to see how the F4 ended up like it did, huh.</font>

Wow, thanks for taking all of my comments pertaining to the circumstances of the GTO and making generalizations that apply to all of GM's decisions.

My feelings on the fourth gen leaving? I'm have some fond memories, but I'm ready for it. I would like to have seen GM prepared to offer an F5 without hiatus, but I want a better car and there was nowhere else to go with the current offering. That is why I am in the "5th gen forum" of this site; I'm waiting for news of an improved, even better performing next generation Camaro and hopefully Firebird.

I think GM itself is an adequate answer to "who asked for it?". It's always their decision on what cars they make. I'm sure there are groups of GTO enthusiasts that will welcome this car's return and have been clamoring for it for years. I don't know what point you're trying to make. Everyone was content with letting the GTO lay to rest? No one wants it to come back? That's what you're saying with "who asked for it?".

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
muckz,
If you agree about the name issue, (which BTW is waaayyy cool http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif ) why did you write all the other stuff about "whiners" and what a "great performer" it is and all?</font>

Because GTO does not look like a Grand Prix, this is what I don't agree with. And virtually in every post from people who don't like GTO is mainly due to reasons that it looks like Grand Prix/Grand Am.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I'm glad you see the point about name pimpin', but then to bash the people who feel the same way is like playing on both teams or selling your sister or something. I don't get it.</font>

I don't bash people, I bash the complaints that we keep getting about essentially the same thing. We have heard those complaints many times already, yet it seems that they never die.

I thought I came out pretty clear on where I stand on this issue.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
It seems that is exactly the case - screw what the public wants, screw what the collectors want, screw what we want, we'll get what they(GM) want us to have - as usual.</font>

Tell me, what is wrong with this Monaro? Is this something that the public and enthusiasts DO NOT WANT? Did they ask for something else?

Did they not ask for a rear wheel drive car?
Did they not ask for V8 engine and good tranny?
Did they not ask for awesome handling and IRS?
Did they not ask that the car would have better ergonomics?
Did they not ask for an actual, real back seat?

I will repeat as I said before - this car will be an awesome performer. Everyone would love the car if it didn't carry GTO name. Now because GM decided to brand the car as GTO, all of the sudden this turns into hate GM?

The only reason I agree that GM should've named this car some other name is ONLY to please the whiners who can't stand GTO logo on this name. As you know, GTO logo stirs much controversy, and GM could have anticipated that.

At the same time, wait for a couple of years. If this car will be accepted, if the public truly falls in love with it as with original GTO - what will happen then?

I don't have any doubts that this upcoming GTO can deliver to its name.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
My feelings on the fourth gen leaving? I'm have some fond memories, but I'm ready for it. I would like to have seen GM prepared to offer an F5 without hiatus, but I want a better car and there was nowhere else to go with the current offering. That is why I am in the "5th gen forum" of this site; I'm waiting for news of an improved, even better performing next generation Camaro and hopefully Firebird.</font>

Jerry,
I'm all squared-up with you, and it's good on my side http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif - I hope so with you too.

I really don't mean to sound like I'm on a rag or something over this topic. I also don't want to sound like I'm a smart-alick know-it-all, especially here in GM-land, because I'm not that kind of guy. I'm just trying to point out some things to you guys that you might not otherwise see being insiders of GM that you are - kind of like the old "rose-colored glasses" thing. But let's be honest, something needs to change in GM's current process, don't you think?

I am an engineer. That makes me somewhat conservative, a stickler for details, and morally charged to do what's "right", not just "OK" or "good enough", no matter what it is. You have barely seen my passion displayed with this GTO-thing here... can you imagine my tenacity against Ford when the Mustang was on the line?!?! This is what it's gonna take (from every one of us) to steer the General in a new direction. At least we all have a good start on the inside with Lutz' new mentality, but he really can't do it all alone - the public must help/guide him.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
That is why I am in the "5th gen forum" of this site; I'm waiting for news of an improved, even better performing next generation Camaro and hopefully Firebird.</font>

Here's my version...
That is why I am in the "5th gen forum" of this site; I'm here to help forge a new process for GM/musclecar enthusiasts to be heard, and to help develop the best possible next-generation Camaro and Firebird.

I honestly appreciate your thoughts and opinions. It is obvious you have passion for the topic or you wouldn't spend this much effort writing about it - I admire that. Thanks for a respectable debate. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
This is not a slam, but a friendly debate, so look at this that way. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Your entire argument as I understand it is that it doesn't look like a Pontiac Tempest or Pontiac LeMans (I'm no longer calling it a GTO look because it was a package on those cars). If GTO had continued over the past 30 years instead of being MIA all this time, do you feel it would look like a car of the 60's?

Pontiac has changed over the years. Grand Prix is the car that looked much like a fancy Tempest once, and look how it has changed. In your T-Bird example (which though I think is a nice design, I prefer the sinister look of the MN12 SCs), Thunderbird was it's own car like with it's own design being a separate car line from anything else. I feel that is what you and a few others are not taking into account. GTO was an option package on an existing car like the SS to Chevelle, the R/T to Charger, the GT to Torino, the GNX to Cutlass, etc.

It seems that what you are asking for is a mid-60s Pontiac Tempest retro-car or a car that flies in the face of Pontiac's current family of design. Before you slam the idea of a design family, look at Pontiac's 1965 lineup. This isn't a concept that just popped up in recent years.........

....Yes it looks like a Grand Prix. In pictures it has the profile of a Cavalier. In light of the GTO's that looked like a boring economic Tempest with a blackout grill, I'd say it carrys the same spirit as the originals. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

</font>

Let me clarify something. ALL of the original musclecars [except the corvette, and a few specialty cars] were based on plain-jane daily drivers. GTO-Lemans, Skylark GS - option pkg. on skylark, SS was another option pkg. on chevelles. So, this concept is nothing new, and it continues today: GTP - Grand prix, Z28 SS - Option pkg. for camaro.

Again, the choices are: 1) Make the GTO into yet another model in the Pontiac lineup, or 2) Make it a limited-edition specialty car. GM has already chosen #2 in production quantity, but styling-wise they have chosen #1. With low-volume specialty cars it makes sense to give them the individualty and independence from their brother & sister models. For mass-volume cars, brand identification and association is key.


The "flagship" vehicles within a particular brand always tend to be the most techniclly advanced, most powerful, and leads the styling upgrades for the remainder of the line. EX: Exterior styling of the flagship chenges 1st, remainder of the line follows suit.

If Pontiac intends this to be a "Flagship" then it's styling should indicate what's coming in the next few model years for the rest of the line. [This also assumes Pontiac is integrating this into their model lineup]
I don't see that in the styling of this car. It appears to be the same themes as current models.

Another point: You mentioned the GAP in production of the vehicle. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT. It has been mentioned [myself included] that GM has bastardized nameplates of classic cars, but it reality, those cars never TRULY died. The Impala, bonneville, monte carlo, grand prix, camaro/firebird, mustang have always been around, so they naturally evolved with the rest of the models. NO ONE complained when the Impala was a 4-door tugboat w/NO 2-door models offered and a WHIMPY 305 V8 or pittiful V-6 as the only engine options!

BUT the GTO is a TOTALLY different story. The last memories of the GTO were FOND memories! [Except 73-74, we tend to forget those years!]. That car lived up to it's heritage RIGHT UNTIL THE END!

So, does it not make sense to pay tribute to a car that went out like Micheal Jordan left the NBA [the 1st time] with full glory and honor! Or should we turn the GTO's return into Jordan's return to the NBA with the Wizards!!! Interesting at first, but NOT WHAT MOST EXPECTED!!!!!!
And now most pay little attention to his performances....

http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

As I've been reading & posting on this GTO topic, I start to wonder: How many of the people who are posting are #1) even old enough to remember musclecars [I don't count in that category myself] or #2) Have ever driven or rode in a musclecar? What about the GTO? Anybody owned/driven/rode in a GTO?
Does anyone posting really know about the magic of a musclecar, what it's like to drive a car w/ 350+HP and NO little convienences like power steering, power brakes, NO disc brakes up front [that's a REAL challenge], NO ABS to help with driving boo-boo's, NO A/C, NO P/W, P/L, T-tops, No FM radios, etc. etc.

What it feels like to stomp the pedal down at 55 and have the back end break LOOSE on you? To get 7 MPG? [not good]. To feel the body twist when you get on it at the light? The exaust note, engine sound, the sound of MONSTER back barrels opening up? Or TWO MORE CARBURATORS opening up when you stomp on it?

And the GTO is the one to thank for all of that [not LITERALLY, but it did start a massive movement].

I really don't think that the people posting have a good feel, or passion, for what a musclecar is all about.


------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

How many people asked for a Mustang Mach 1? How many asked for a new T-bird that looks like a 55 model???




------------------
Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4 (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm)
White with red leather
1979 Firebird Formula SOLD!!! 8/2001
Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
I don't bash people, .......
I thought I came out pretty clear on where I stand on this issue. </font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
The only reason I agree that GM should've named this car some other name is ONLY to please the whiners who can't stand GTO logo on this name. </font>

???? I challenge you to score the "pros' - vs - "cons' on who is doing the name calling here...I'd personally like to see the level of maturity raised....this can and should be a calm debate.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
Because GTO does not look like a Grand Prix, this is what I don't agree with. And virtually in every post from people who don't like GTO is mainly due to reasons that it looks like Grand Prix/Grand Am. </font>

You can't be serious......it looks nearly identical to the GP....I know, I own one!

I'm going to say this one last time....my discontent stems from the obvious LACK of effort/talent/desire on GM's part to put even the slightest of heritage styling cues in this car, short of the twin grilles........much less using a dated 5 year old design!

I say this as much as to my own memories of the original GTO's as I do in hopes that IF & WHEN we ever get a 5th gen Camaro they do more that slap the emblems on a similar non-descript plain brown wrapper, "corporate design styling". Does it really make you happy to see cars that simply look like Pontiacs and not a "model specific" Pontiac?

I truly do hope and believe that, from what I've heard, the Monaro/GTO will be a world class car with performance to match.....shoulda' spent more effort on the styling though...even if it was the hood/front fascia area.

[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:


I say this as much as to my own memories of the original GTO's as I do in hopes that IF & WHEN we ever get a 5th gen Camaro they do more that slap the emblems on a similar non-descript plain brown wrapper, "corporate design styling". Does it really make you happy to see cars that simply look like Pontiacs and not a "model specific" Pontiac?
</font>

Great point!

If styling went down that road we could just call all Pontiac's "Pontiac Small", "Pontiac Medium", "Pontiac Large".

There is something to be said for brand identity... to a point

I think the Grand Prix, the Firebird, the Bonneville, and Grand Am, and the Sunfore all "look like a Pontiac"... but they don't look too much like each other...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:

Does anyone posting really know about the magic of a musclecar, what it's like to drive a car w/ 350+HP and NO little convienences like power steering, power brakes, NO disc brakes up front [that's a REAL challenge], NO ABS to help with driving boo-boo's, NO A/C, NO P/W, P/L, T-tops, No FM radios, etc. etc.

What it feels like to stomp the pedal down at 55 and have the back end break LOOSE on you? To get 7 MPG? [not good]. To feel the body twist when you get on it at the light? The exaust note, engine sound, the sound of MONSTER back barrels opening up? Or TWO MORE CARBURATORS opening up when you stomp on it?


I really don't think that the people posting have a good feel, or passion, for what a musclecar is all about.
</font>

That describes a muscle car of days long gone by. Do you think that any car, produced either now or in the future, will essentially go back to stone age? No manufacturer will attempt to satisfy small percentage of POTENTIAL customers where they will lose money.

Essentially, my understanding is that a number of those who complain about GTO complain because the car does not resemble the features of the muscle cars of the 60's and 70's. Well, airplanes in world war 2 were far different from those of world war 1. There were pilots who always said that to fly a real plane was to fly a sopwith camel, with no brakes, open cockpit, and when you do a loop, the engine cuts out because fuel doesn't flow into the engine. That was a thrill, that was excitement. The newer, modernized planes provided a different experience. Just like F16 and F18 provide a much different experience than world war 2 planes. Yet a WWI plane was a fighter plane, and WWII was a fighter plane. So is F16. 4th gen fbody is a muscle car, so is current Mustang. The Monaro is a muscle car. But a different, evolved muscle car.

What many have a passion for is no longer produced. Nor will it be produced. There is no longer any market for it. Cars, industry evolves. People of present day have different desires, wishes than those from a decade, or 2 or 3 ago. Tastes change, and what people try to look for in a car changes.

I'm sure that when cars go to alternative fuels in the future, such as fuel cell, many will be dissatisfied and cry for gasoline cars. What will change? Nothing. It is not advantageous for anyone to keep using gasoline when fuel cell (or other technology) will replace it.

I also do not understand how some here exclaim that GM let everyone down, and by listening it seems that you think that GM is introducing an inferior product that nobody asked for, that it didn't listen to its customers. This car is everything we would ask for, save some smaller few details and the price. If you can't see that, remove GTO name from it and view it as Monaro. If the whole GTO name completely changes perception of the car for y ou, well, too bad, what can you do...

[This message has been edited by muckz (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
You can't be serious......it looks nearly identical to the GP....I know, I own one!
</font>

Everyone raise your hand if you own a 2004 Pontiac GTO:
Oops, I see no hands. So you can't claim to have done a side-by-side comparison of 2 real cars.

Raise your hands if you've seen a 2004 Pontiac GTO in person, apart from that silly *hand-drawn* sketch (it's not computerized) :
Hmm.. no hands.

Raise your hands if you know for a fact what the final 2004 Pontiac GTO looks like at the front, rear, interior, hood, wheels, and other places where they are giving it GTO identity:
Once again no hands. Naturally, since we are talking about a car still being designed, a car that does not yet EXIST, a car which has been seen by maybe a dozen people on the globe. I challenge anyone to deny these facts without changing the subject.

Let's stop acting like Cornholio and wait for this destined success to arrive. The basics are there. The Monaro's performance is undeniable. The shape is sleek and intuitive (unlike some other disaster of a design going on a hiatus .. *cough* F4 *cough*). I have faith in PMD to do it right, as far as cosmetics and identity. Not only will it sell out completely, but it will be accepted as a true GTO. All these ridiculously long threads are based on a hand-drawn sketch from a bad angle. Get a grip people..

[This message has been edited by kizz (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kizz:
Everyone raise your hand if you own a 2004 Pontiac GTO:
Oops, I see no hands.

.....
Let's stop acting like Cornholio ...... Get a grip people..</font>

I OBVIOUSLY was speaking about owning a Grand Prix.....

So much for raising the maturity level of this debate.

We're ALL waisting our breath here anyway, GM is going to do whatever the beancounter tell them anyway....

NOBODY has compared these 2 cars in real life. Period. The front is similar, but after all it's a Pontiac. See my previous post.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
And we will conclude this little iteration with the observation that...

it was called...G-FORCE!!!
it was not called...GTO!!!

Hope it was at least good exercise for you guys' fingers typing all that rhetoric about such an insignificant point. How does the G-Force have anything to do with GM pimping the GTO name? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

</font>

Because people keep saying that it looks like a Grand Prix. Some of you guys believe that it looks like a GP, and that's OK. But when the new GP comes out in 2004 (the same year as the GTO), they won't look anything alike.

And I think what guionM was trying to say is that everybody here loved the lines and styling of the G-force. But when that type of styling execution was used on the GTO, you hated it.

Let's face it; you guys just hate the idea of a new GTO period. Probably wouldn't matter what it looked like. You have strong emotional feelings about the old car and these emotions just don't translate well into words. That's OK. We've all been there. It's frustrating.
I guess you don't have to like/buy the car. That's OK, too. I'm fairly confident you guys will be in the minority however.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
Because people keep saying that it looks like a Grand Prix. Some of you guys believe that it looks like a GP, and that's OK. But when the new GP comes out in 2004 (the same year as the GTO), they won't look anything alike.

.....

Let's face it; you guys just hate the idea of a new GTO period. Probably wouldn't matter what it looked like. You have strong emotional feelings about the old car and these emotions just don't translate well into words. That's OK. We've all been there. It's frustrating.
I guess you don't have to like/buy the car. That's OK, too. I'm fairly confident you guys will be in the minority however.

</font>

Obviously, none of us "cons" are saying the GTO will simply have a GP nose welded on....but if you can't see the "nearly" identical fascia....then I can't help you. Of course ALL we have to base this on is GM's "official" sketch....they haven't given us anything else.


To say that we simply "hate" the GTO is just not true.....please read what we have been saying before you simple jump to your own mis-guided conclusions......I've said over and again that I think the Monaro/GTO will be a great car.

Doug,
I know you like the actual car. I'm talking about the notion of a new GTO. I'm getting the feeling that this is the whole crux of the problem.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
.....I'm going to say this one last time....my discontent stems from the obvious LACK of effort/talent/desire on GM's part to put even the slightest of heritage styling cues in this car, short of the twin grilles........much less using a dated 5 year old design!

I say this as much as to my own memories of the original GTO's as I do in hopes that IF & WHEN we ever get a 5th gen Camaro they do more that slap the emblems on a similar non-descript plain brown wrapper, "corporate design styling". Does it really make you happy to see cars that simply look like Pontiacs and not a "model specific" Pontiac?

I truly do hope and believe that, from what I've heard, the Monaro/GTO will be a world class car with performance to match.....shoulda' spent more effort on the styling though...even if it was the hood/front fascia area.
</font>

I've decided to simply keep repeating this until the "pros" understand my position..........

Are you really happier with GM's front fascia/hood design than the one DutchInjun came up with?

Please understand this also.....when I heard that the GTO was coming back......and as a really great car...I was excited as a kid at X-mas......but when I saw the sketch, I realized it was only getting the generic version of the Pontiac corporate design. I KNOW GM wouldn't spent a ton to re-do the Monaro, but it wouldn't have cost hardly anymore to do something like Dutch's version....but let's be honest, it had MUCH more to do with "corporate" design than money....THAT's my beef! Are you happy with GM's effort on the 35th Anniv. Camaro? (Most here threw a fit) Are you happy with GM's new Silverado "SS"?? I could name dozens more half-hearted attempts...not to mention our beloved f-bodies!!....I thought/hoped/believed GM was a LEADER in the automotive industry NOT a follower. But their self-admitted lag in getting into the SUV market cost them billions....when will they LEARN?

Plain and simple, I'm just trying to help to drag them kicking and screaming back into a leadership role.......

What I'm realizing the problem is here...

All these people are begging for a new GTO that looks like the old GTO, a limited edition specialty car that's all it's own.

So you guys really want a GM Prowler? Are you going to shell out $45,000 for it, too? All these people want it to be more limited, more specialty...so more EXPENSIVE.

I'd be willing to bet that 90% of you wanting the more expensive more gaudy GTO would point at it and go "YEAH THAT'S THE PONTIAC I LIKE" and continue driving whatever it is you drive now, just because it'd become unaffordable at that point.

We really need another gimmick car like the SSR? Or the PT Cruiser or Bug?

It'd be novel and cute and there'd be an initial rush, then people would realize that it's tacky and lame, and wish that GM would come up with a new idea.


Chrysler has the Viper and the Prowler (or had the Prowler) to put people into Neons. I for one would rather see a GTO that I could maybe afford, not a GTO that looks really cool but I can never afford, but yay Pontiac let's go buy a Sunfire. No thanks.

And the first person to go "Well GM should make an affordable GTO that looks retro and performs great and also watches the kids when I'm tired and cleans itself" can please walk off a cliff.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
That was then this is now. It should be unique looking especially for a return after all these years.
</font>

So "that was then, this is now" but it needs to be more retro and look like the old GTO?

Oooooooooooook.

------------------
Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

[This message has been edited by MunchE (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
Some of you guys believe that it looks like a GP, and that's OK. But when the new GP comes out in 2004 (the same year as the GTO), they won't look anything alike.
</font>


Sure they will look alike, because even after the next gen Grand Prix comes out there will still be hundreds of thousands of 1997-2003 Grand Prix's that will be running around on the roads that will look very similar to the 'newly' styled GTO...

[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
What I'm realizing the problem is here...

All these people are begging for a new GTO that looks like the old GTO, a limited edition specialty car that's all it's own.

So you guys really want a GM Prowler? Are you going to shell out $45,000 for it, too? All these people want it to be more limited, more specialty...so more EXPENSIVE.

I'd be willing to bet that 90% of you wanting the more expensive more gaudy GTO would point at it and go "YEAH THAT'S THE PONTIAC I LIKE" and continue driving whatever it is you drive now, just because it'd become unaffordable at that point.
</font>

You're not listening........IF they had done something even slightly similar to Dutch's design, I wouldn't say a word, but they chose to play it safe and use a dated, 5 year old "corporate" design. I hate tacked on scoops too.......why would anyone want a "gaudy" car?? Please tell me what's wrong with Dutch's front design (the first pic that loads on his site)....to me, it screams GTO and Pontiac....and doesn't look gaudy at all.

Here, I'll make it easy for you.....which one would you prefer?? http://www.indycamaro.com/images/GTOfronts.jpg

My point is GM's propensity to follow and not lead, to play it safe and not be a leader....look at the Silverado SS....could have at least met the bar raised by the Lightning, but no, play it safe and just make it 'good enough'.

You can lead without going over the top in design and engineering...GM chooses to hide behind the stockholders purse strings.


[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
Here, I'll make it easy for you.....which one would you prefer?? http://www.indycamaro.com/images/GTOfronts.jpg</font>

Personally, I find those two cars to be pretty similar looking. They both have that wide opening on the bottom, and the headlights are similar in shape (ok, so they could actually be seperate insead of the one large lens with the black cover, but hey, theres not a big difference). All they'd need to do is recess the grill a little and square it off, and add that part protruding that extends onto the hood (which, in my opinion, would look pretty tacky on a real car). Then they move the fog lights into that large opening in the middle, and they'd have a fairly good approximation of that. But who says that is the be all end all of drawings? What if people like the official rendering better then that drawing? There are a lot of minor things they could have done with it, but didnt for whatever reason. I think it looks pretty damn good the way it is, obviously there are people that disagree, and thats great, its called free will. But whether you like the styling or not, I dont think you can disagree that this is very much a GTO, a good performing car, but still looking like the rest of the line (just like the classic GTOs).

[This message has been edited by Big_Z (edited June 29, 2002).]

You can't just throw a retro bumper and hood on a 2002 model year car and expect it to look right. Who wants some Frankenstein car because it has to have hood scoops? That dutch injun illustration is a totally different car--not a touched up Monaro which is the reality of the situation. As others explained, were we to receive a completely redesigned, "original" GTO it would cost as much as a Corvette. Then what? That's not what a GTO is. It's not a trophy piece or unattainable car for most people. It's priced right where it will be; it looks right the way it will be (in fact, the more I look at it now, the less I see Grand Prix); it adheres to the mission statement GM has imposed and to the history of the car it borrows its name from.

I don't find those two cars to be similar at all.

Let me just say that I'm glad the GTO is coming back...and considering the speed with which GM is bringing us the Monaro based GTO, I guess it is understandable that this is the best we can expect for now.

But.....man oh man oh man....Dutch's rendition just screams modern GTO and I would like it even more if it looked like that!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
Here, I'll make it easy for you.....which one would you prefer?? http://www.indycamaro.com/images/GTOfronts.jpg</font>

Neither. !!TED!!'s design and some other concepts are better though.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
So "that was then, this is now" but it needs to be more retro and look like the old GTO?

Oooooooooooook.</font>

Know what a cue is?? A few would be nice, doesn't have to be too much.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
Know what a cue is?? A few would be nice, doesn't have to be too much.

</font>

A cue... hmmmm... Cue stick? Cue ball? Billiards and pool? LOL! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

I think you mean "design cue" or "styling cue", basically the same as a design element or characteristic... something that can be referenced. Please don't say: "That car needs more cues" because that doesn't really make sense. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Oh, and some of you guys act like this is YOUR project and YOUR car. It is not. GM is importing this car, and will use whatever name they wish. You should be used to this by now... it could be worse, so stop b¡tching.

It is also BASED on the Monaro, and the chances of it being designed retro at this time are NONE. And what year GTO should this look like? I'm sure you would have a big debate on that too, because you want it to be the perfect car that you picture in your little heads. Nobody is going to be satisfied!

Me for instance, I think this GTO is perfect. The fact that it looks similar to a Grand Prix is good... its a fast car that won't attract attention. More of a sleeper than a sports car or pony car. I guess this car is aimed at an older market though, maybe you aren't old enough to appreciate a nice coupe like this. It reminds me of how the GTO looked just like the Le Mans and Tempest back in the day. Wow, what a coincidence.

If you are SO worried about what the nose of a 2004 GTO will look like, I suggest YOU get a job at GM and help them FIX this terrible error that has disgraced the GTO name.

Lets look at YOUR problem with the car...

"It looks like the current Grand Prix, which a GTO cannot look like!!! It needs to look like an old GTO. But its a perfectly good car, and it would be OK if it was called Le Mans or something like that..."

Well hey, the GTO looked like the Le Mans and Tempest... you say you want a true GTO and all this other BS, but what it boils down to is that you want it to LOOK the way YOU want it to. Obviously you guys couldn't give a crap about the actual car, and accept the car and the way it looks, which some of you say is good, but not for a GTO. http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif Did you b¡tch when the GTO first came out, and was based on the Tempest??? Or the Le Mans later on??? No, because thats the way it was. GTO was all about the performance...

You seem to think that the GTO name is being disgraced in this situation, just because the car isn't friggin' retro enough... oh how sad.

------------------
FormulaV8.com (http://www.FormulaV8.com) · 1994 Formula · A4 · 3.23
13.45 @ 102.5 MPH w/ 1.9 60' | 267 rwhp | 307 tq/lbs | 3535 lbs
"I know for a fact he is NOT an Easter bunny"

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevil:
.......

Oh, and some of you guys act like this is YOUR project and YOUR car. It is not. GM is importing this car, and will use whatever name they wish. You should be used to this by now... it could be worse, so stop b¡tching.</font>

So they DON't want to sell them?? Interesting concept..... :rollseyes:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevil:

Me for instance, I think this GTO is perfect. The fact that it looks similar to a Grand Prix is good... its a fast car that won't attract attention. More of a sleeper than a sports car or pony car. I guess this car is aimed at an older market though, maybe you aren't old enough to appreciate a nice coupe like this. It reminds me of how the GTO looked just like the Le Mans and Tempest back in the day. Wow, what a coincidence.</font>

So you'd pay $35k+ for a car that nobody can tell from grandma's car....you want a "sleeper" that isn't a "pony car" (neither was the GTO...it was a muscle car) or a "sports car"?? Might want to check out a Catera......

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevil:

If you are SO worried about what the nose of a 2004 GTO will look like, I suggest YOU get a job at GM and help them FIX this terrible error that has disgraced the GTO name. </font>

It's painfully obvious that you have to check your artistic individuallity at the door...no thanks....but amatuers like Ted and Dutch seem to have a better sense of design.

Maybe the problem is that we are being force fed a diet of boring, non-descript cars because CEO's have a stockholder's gun to their heads......and SOME people would buy a anything if it's even 'just good enough'.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevil:

You seem to think that the GTO name is being disgraced in this situation, just because the car isn't friggin' retro enough... oh how sad.</font>

What's sad is we can't have an adult, mature debate without being called names and cussed at....learn how to make a point without resorting to childish antics and maybe we'd be more inclinded to listen to your points.

Fact is, most of us have held very true to the main point of fact......IF your going to rely on and use the name of a classic muscle car that EARNED it's place in history, then at the very least give us a design package (ain't nobody arguing against this car as being a possibly great car, performance wise) that has some tie to it's gloried past.

Some of us are not content to simply swallow whatever is thrown our way....obviously Pontiac could have called this car anything, THEY chose to invoke the GTO name, but wrapped it in a DATED 5 year old "corporate design" that is forgettable as it is tired and worn....Why not call it a Tempest, or ??

You gonna' be as happpy when the Camaro returns if it wears as boring of a design as this one? I'm sure GM would be tickled to not have to stretch the envelope...it's safer and cheaper.....heck, they know some people don't really care.

This debate has grown as tired as the Grand Am/Prix/GTO design....enough already.

BTW, I'm 45 years old, so YES I remember.



[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 29, 2002).]

I always laugh when someone mentions "Sleeper Car" as a good thing.

In 95% of the cases, I think the term "Sleeper Car" is just a way to try and justify bad or uninspiring looks on an otherwise great car.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
Why not call it a Tempest, or ??</font>

So you have no problem with this car being called a Tempest?you don't care about the Tempest name?

Keep in mind that a 2004+ GTO based of the 2004+ Tempest would look exatly like this car, with more power, hood tach and scoops maybe.They would look the same, which is your guys big arguement of it!!!

thats like saying a 2005 Trans Am must look like an old one, but a Firebird I could care less about, the name does,nt mean anything to me. even though they are sposed to look the same.the problem is obviously the GTO name, and you have some history to it. but you aren't in favor of following history. makes no sense.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Spot:
So you have no problem with this car being called a Tempest?you don't care about the Tempest name?</font>

Actually no, no I don't care about the Tempest...it was a role player NOT a car that is permanently etched in muscle car history.......

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Spot:
......but a Firebird I could care less about, the name does,nt mean anything to me. even though they are sposed to look the same.the problem is obviously the GTO name, and you have some history to it. but you aren't in favor of following history. makes no sense.</font>

So YOU don't care about a car's name? Then WTH are you arguing w/ us?

BTW, where did I EVER say I wasn't in favor of "following history"?!? I've been arguing EXACTLY the opposite! Might want to re-read some of this thread and others.......:rollseyes:

I don't expect a full off re-do of a 1970 GTO, I simply want more of a resemblence than the weak, dated, GP copy design they showed in the sketch...they chose to use the GTO name..make it look like it at least came from the same tree.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:learn how to make a point without resorting to childish antics and maybe we'd be more inclinded to listen to your points
</font>

How can you possibly judge (and form complete, strong opinions on) two cars where one is real and the other is a picture of a drawing of a nose clip, and call GTO a Grand Prix derivative?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You can't be serious......it looks nearly identical to the GP....I know, I own one!</font>
But you don't own GTO. You have not seen a GTO with the front clip as revealed in the picture, if ever you saw a Monaro.

I said before that people have different tastes. And to me, GTO doesn't look like Grand Prix, even the front nose. I said I see the similarities, but both speak of two different cars. As postings increased, I corrected my views to a certain extent, and I agreed that GM would be better off not using the name GTO on this car - all problems would be solved. So don't post saying "You can't be serious......it looks nearly identical to the GP" and later ask for more maturity in these conversations. This is all a matter of perception, this is what I concluded. Do you have the maturity to come to such conclusion?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
You're not listening........IF they had done something even slightly similar to Dutch's design, I wouldn't say a word, but they chose to play it safe and use a dated, 5 year old "corporate" design.</font>

But are you listening? Are you hearing that MOST or the majority of people are satisfied with current upcoming GTO? How can you be so arrogant as to say that whatever design YOU would accept would be a perfectly valid move, whereas whatever you do not approve of is absolutely horrendous? OK, so GM would produce a design that would fit the appeal of enthusiasts such as yourself, but would it have greater appeal necessary for success of this car and any future derivatives of this car or of its platform?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I've decided to simply keep repeating this until the "pros" understand my position..........</font>

Based on the posts I read so far, we know and we understand your position. There is absolutely no need to go repeating it.

QUOTE]Originally posted by muckz:
How can you possibly judge (and form complete, strong opinions on) two cars where one is real and the other is a picture of a drawing of a nose clip, and call GTO a Grand Prix derivative? [/QUOTE]

I use my eyes and the fact that it is nearly identical to my wife’s GTP (that I see every day)…..this isn’t a child’s finger painting, it’s a detailed sketch. How can you not see that? I have strong opinions, shoot me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
But you don't own GTO. You have not seen a GTO with the front clip as revealed in the picture, if ever you saw a Monaro.

I said before that people have different tastes. And to me, GTO doesn't look like Grand Prix, even the front nose. I said I see the similarities, but both speak of two different cars. As postings increased, I corrected my views to a certain extent, and I agreed that GM would be better off not using the name GTO on this car - all problems would be solved. So don't post saying "You can't be serious......it looks nearly identical to the GP" and later ask for more maturity in these conversations. This is all a matter of perception, this is what I concluded. Do you have the maturity to come to such conclusion? </font>

IF you had read my response to that post, I said “Obviously I am referring to owning a GTP”…what do you propose, wait until GM put’s this thing out or state your own opinion now in hopes someone listens?

Don’t preach to me about maturity……I haven’t use one derogatory term in any of my responses…..meanwhile the "cons" are referred to as "whiners" "bitchers", etc…. I respect everyone’s opinion, but I find it disingenuous for anyone to say they don’t see the similarity…..simply to attempt a response.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
But are you listening? Are you hearing that MOST or the majority of people are satisfied with current upcoming GTO? How can you be so arrogant as to say that whatever design YOU would accept would be a perfectly valid move, whereas whatever you do not approve of is absolutely horrendous? OK, so GM would produce a design that would fit the appeal of enthusiasts such as yourself, but would it have greater appeal necessary for success of this car and any future derivatives of this car or of its platform?
</font>

It isn’t arrogant to state one’s opinion…we have that right don’t we? You get to state yours, I expect to do the same….without being personally attacked. Must I walk in lock step because the "majority" likes it? Not me, I use my own brain. Do I expect GM to change anything? Heck no. They are too scared of trying something that isn’t “safe”. If it’s OK for GM to put out (what I feel like is a half-hearted attempt) this kind of design, then buy one….me, I already own a car that (to me….guess I oughta’ start clearing that up so people won’t get so bent out of shape) looks and performs (again, I KNOW it's not the same, just close) nearly identical……..I’ll save my money for something better.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
Based on the posts I read so far, we know and we understand your position. There is absolutely no need to go repeating it. </font>

Ditto……..


[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 29, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
What's sad is we can't have an , mature debate without being called names and cussed at....learn how to make a point without resorting to childish antics and maybe we'd be more inclinded to listen to your points.</font>

You did listen, you even quoted and replied to me... http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif And where did I call anyone names? I guess "b¡tching" was a little too harsh, I'm sorry. http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif But if you aren't in favor of the new GTO design, then you are complaining about it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
So you'd pay $35k+ for a car that nobody can tell from grandma's car....</font>

Sure. Why not. If it performs well, like the Monaros supposedly do. Not to mention the room and comfort inside. I don't care who thinks my cars look fast or not, I like driving them.

I don't think for a second anyone will confuse this car with Granny's Grand Prix... I'm sure it will be advertised and promoted, not to mention the fact that they will be rare, and will be easily spotted. Any car guy will be able to spot one of these a mile away, you know we pick up all the little details.

Like a car with a supercharger or cam, or the different tailight changes on a 1st gen Camaro, or even the difference between LT1 and LS1... some people don't notice those types of things, but we will. A GTO won't be shrugged off as a Grand Prix, but instead turn heads...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC:
they chose to use the GTO name..make it look like it at least came from the same tree.</font>

Well, they are using the current tree, not the old. Look at the other Pontiacs today... and thats what they are using for the GTO.

That is true to what the GTO was, it looked similar to other cars in the Pontiac lineup. This is a modern GTO, and not a retro one.

True, some cars are re-released today that are obviously retro, like the Thunderbird. But those cars aren't being imported here quickly in limited supply. Those cars are designed like that, and I'm sure a totally redesigned GTO would look nothing like a Monaro. But thats what our GTO is.

Dated design? Maybe. But this is a "stop-gap" car... what if in just 2 years they replace it with an American designed and built GTO? Probably with more sales in mind too, and not just 20K.

Lets pretend for a minute that the current Grand Prix is a Tempest, since it is missing from our current Pontiac lineup. Or that the Tempest replaced the Grand Prix name in 1997, whatever...

Would this new GTO satisfy you? Or not? Just an odd scenario, but if you look at that, then you will see where the problem lies. Would you be happier with a perfect looking GTO, if it was retro like the Thunderbird, but underpowered? Or front wheel drive?

I want one of these cars btw. I'm worried about how much this thing is going to cost. How much power it will have. That matters more to me, and I'm suprised that were debating something dumb like this.

From that pic, and everything else I know about the car, it looks great. I look at a car and take everything into account, and measure it up. Like my Formula, its red and a hardtop... I wanted a black Trans Am with t-tops, but I couldn't pass up this car with such low miles. Same with this. It looks a little bit like a Grand Prix, but I see no problem with that.

You want the GTO to be more retro, and thats fine. But you guys make it out to be a huge problem and disgrace that the GTO name is on this car, and I think thats crazy.

If you are willing to accept mediocrity, then be my guest.

Let's let this dead horse lie in peace...it's starting to smell from the beating.

Peace....

LOL! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Fine with me, although the Monaro/GTO itself is nothing close to mediocre... I can't wait to test drive one and see what all this Holden hoopla is about. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Doug Harden... I have more appreciation and admiration for you right now than you can possibly know. I was out of town for a few days, so I was unable to post for a while. (I actually wanted the break from this debacle after taking my lumps last week!) You have presented the "con" side of this issue admirably. JWD. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

And for the twenty-some-odd people who have posted fervishly in support of this car... Great job! Way to beat-up on a few guys who are just trying to help make some change for the better in GM-ville - oops! I meant Truckville - OH-no wait, that's Dodge's turf, um, well, OK, how 'bout FWD-V6-land - hows that? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

formula79 -&gt; you replied,"How many people asked for a Mustang Mach 1? How many asked for a new T-bird that looks like a 55 model???"
Well, as for the Mach 1 - the interest was generated back in '94/'95 with a concept car. There was also a BOSS package, which did hit the streets a while back(mostly stripe kit). But to answer your question directly, I think something like @150,000 people "requested" a properly packaged Mach 1 in the last few years through Mustang Club of America and other organized bodies (NMRA, local clubs, new car questionaires, etc).(I was one of 'em!) I know that demand was good for the T-bird through their clubs too, but I don't have any recollection of actual numbers.
Point is - these cars were asked for by the buying public.

stevil -&gt; Thanks for the lesson on "cues". Boy, no wonder nobody else here understood what us "cons" here were trying to say when we asked for "cues of the old GTO in this new one". Man, I bet GM would never mount two cue sticks or cue balls on the hood like the old one had, huh? I'll put the "cue" lesson in my "queue" to print when I get the "que".

Spot -&gt; So you get this grand image of dual hood scoops cramming cold air down 4 to 8 barrels of gas-guzzling carbs creating tire-smoking power when you hear the name Tempest, eh? Showing both your age and your knowledge of car history in the same paragraph there my friend. Honestly, I would have no problem calling the Monaro a Tempest, even though it is still a Monaro. http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif

muckz -&gt; you wrote,"Are you hearing that MOST or the majority of people are satisfied with current upcoming GTO?" Well yes, I am aware of that, and all I have to say is that the same could be said of the F4 introduction, the Monte Carlo reintroduction, the Lumina debut, and countless other car intro's. Did that make them unabashedly successful? It just tells me that "MOST or the majority of the people are satisfied"... in raping old names, settling for whatever is offered, or just have no appreciation for legends. No opinions, fact.

stevil -&gt; you replied,"But if you aren't in favor of the new GTO design, then you are complaining about it." What a shame!! http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif After the wonderful literary proclamation about the definition of "cues", you falter on this concept of debate v. slander.
You see, when one offers criticism about a topic, they are compelled to point out what a deficiency is, then offer a potential solution to remedy said issue. Others may return like diction poising an alternative point. This process is called "debating".
However, when a person simply says bad things about a design, issue, or even another person - that is called slander. The point of this lecture is to inform those who believe we "cons" are just "complaining" that we are not - we are debating an issue. To the contrary, I think the posts show that we "cons" have taken an excessive amount of slander (name calling and fictitious directives) from many (but definitely not all - BTW, thanks to those who disagree, but write professionally. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif ) of the "pro" supporters. Says alot about the insight and level of maturity of those of us not approving of the GTO naming process, IMHO.

kizz -&gt; you said,"All these ridiculously long threads are based on a hand-drawn sketch from a bad angle. Get a grip people."
GM wouldn't make such a big deal about the press release of that "sketch" if it wasn't close to the finished product. BTW,you aren't seeing the rear of the car because nothing was done to it(ref the article (http://web.camaross.com/bb/Forum5/HTML/001572.html) Decromin posted). Also in that article, they talk about the directive to make it look like all the other Pontiacs, and say the design is done. Crimony, they even give you quotes from the guys that were charged to do the work! THERE WILL LIKELY BE NO MORE CHANGES!!!!

Flamesuit on guys... I had a great weekend and I'm ready! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 30, 2002).]

SO.. I just read this article (http://carpoint.msn.com/advice/windowshop.aspx?contentid=4021153), about car models dying this year, posted in another thread.

QUOTE - Still, research has shown that Camaro "is the fifth most recognized nameplate in the industry," he said. But asked if the Camaro will return at a later time, all Baldic would say is "You can never say never, but we don't have any current plans to return with the car."

The fifth most recognized nameplate in the industry... doesn't say "pimp me out, I'll sell cars!" to me. You guys got nothin' to worry about with GM and future car names/designs/performance! Let's all go fight for a GTO at our nearest dealer!!!

Speaking of the demise of the Mercury Cougar, the following was quoted...
"Besides, he added, some Cougar club members have been recently contacted by Ford officials asking for opinions about a possible future Cougar. Indeed, "the Cougar will probably come back in about four or five years on the next Mustang platform," Cedergren said.
OMG!!! Now there's an interesting concept. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif
Who would actually care what buyers wanted?
Much less go after the feedback?

And 180,000 Mustangs a year sell why? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif
And we can't have a GTO with 1 visual link to it's past why? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif
And the buyer is where on GM's totum pole? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 01, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
Cougar will probably come back in about four or five years on the next Mustang platform," Cedergren said.
OMG!!! Now there's an interesting concept. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif
Who would actually care what buyers wanted?
Much less go after the feedback?


</font>


PP, once again you bring up thought provoking points.

As I've said previously...Ford does a good job of communicating with their enthusiast base. Ford has been much more thorough about communicating with me, just from one purchase of an SVT Contour, than Chevy has, even, with my life long affiliation with the Camaro.

I've driven future (at the time) Ford products with Ford developemental engineers riding shotgun....urging me to drive it even harder...and hanging on my every word of input.

With that said, and to be fair, I also know of fellow Camaro club members who got a ride in an LS1 Camaro before it was released.

I think the failure here is in what GM does with this info. Ford seems better able to convert this into products people want.

quote from Muckz: <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Tell me, what is wrong with this Monaro? Is this something that the public and enthusiasts DO NOT WANT? Did they ask for something else?

Did they not ask for a rear wheel drive car?
Did they not ask for V8 engine and good tranny?
Did they not ask for awesome handling and IRS?
Did they not ask that the car would have better ergonomics?
Did they not ask for an actual, real back seat?

I will repeat as I said before - this car will be an awesome performer. Everyone would love the car if it didn't carry GTO name. Now because GM decided to brand the car as GTO, all of the sudden this turns into hate GM?

The only reason I agree that GM should've named this car some other name is ONLY to please the whiners who can't stand GTO logo on this name. As you know, GTO logo stirs much controversy, and GM could have anticipated that.

At the same time, wait for a couple of years. If this car will be accepted, if the public truly falls in love with it as with original GTO - what will happen then?

I don't have any doubts that this upcoming GTO can deliver to its name.
</font>

Thank you sir! It amazes me, reading this thread, seeing GTO-antagonists ignoring these key characteristics and issues. It's perfectly fitting to me to see the new GTO as it has been drawn, with its performance, capabilities and likely price point. Think of the Monaro as the modern-day Tempest. The GTO is essentially the same car but with a few visual tweaks to make it unique. Would I like to see a new GTO like Dutch Injun's rendition... sure, but it will take years for such a car to happen, IF a business case can be made for it and IF a plant can be found. Meanwhile - I live in the real world, where it's suddenly simpler now for me in the event my Formula gets trashed or stolen in the next year or two. GTO here I come! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

I've recently detected a certain attitude from people discussing this car, among those opposing it (especially if they are also Ford fans)... they sound kind of... jealous! http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif Jealous... that Ford has nothing like this to offer in 2003, 2004 or who knows when. To whit, a hot RWD IRS A4 V8 coupe with an American heritage and (relatively speaking) value pricing, with a real back seat to boot. Ford IMHO really should bring back a Torino GT-like vehicle. I hope the GTO is offered in some shade of green, so Ford fans can more easily turn green with envy! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

Doug - Speaking of the GTP and similarities with the GTO... I guess styling is a subjective thing because I don't see the GTO being such a disgraceful carbon copy of the GTP. There are some things I don't like about my GTP's front end... the huge panel gaps around the headlights, the way the bumper bulges way wider than the headlights. There are some things I really like about it too, like the trademark twin notsrils, prominent fog lights, wide streamlined headlights. All the good things carry over in the new GTO design, but the things I don't like are not present (BTW I like the GTO front end better than the G-Force concept front end too). If I am a typical GTP owner, what do you suppose I will think upon seeing a GTO on a dealer's lot and reading about it's other features and price? A lot of GTP owners are dismayed about the upcoming discontinuation of the GTP coupe, and a lot also pine for RWD. They will LUNGE for this GTO. No, wait, they will have a long, gut-wrenching and emotional debate with themselves first about whether the new GTO "deserves" its name http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif - then after that five-second pause, they will become happy GTO owners and a whole new chapter in GTO history will dawn. http://web.camaross.com/bb/cool.gif

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| Dark Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, stock (http://www.mwshowgo.com/red90iroc/index.htm)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
As I've been reading & posting on this GTO topic, I start to wonder: How many of the people who are posting are #1) even old enough to remember musclecars [I don't count in that category myself] or #2) Have ever driven or rode in a musclecar? What about the GTO? Anybody owned/driven/rode in a GTO?
Does anyone posting really know about the magic of a musclecar, what it's like to drive a car w/ 350+HP and NO little convienences like power steering, power brakes, NO disc brakes up front [that's a REAL challenge], NO ABS to help with driving boo-boo's, NO A/C, NO P/W, P/L, T-tops, No FM radios, etc. etc.

What it feels like to stomp the pedal down at 55 and have the back end break LOOSE on you? To get 7 MPG? [not good]. To feel the body twist when you get on it at the light? The exaust note, engine sound, the sound of MONSTER back barrels opening up? Or TWO MORE CARBURATORS opening up when you stomp on it?

And the GTO is the one to thank for all of that [not LITERALLY, but it did start a massive movement].

I really don't think that the people posting have a good feel, or passion, for what a musclecar is all about.


</font>

At 38 I think I can say I was around when a good many of those muscle cars were still on the road. Quite a few people at my high school (these cars were 10-15 years old & very affordable in the fuel starved late 70's) and a cousin in Indiana had a 68 Torino GT 390, in North Carolina an uncle had a (gasp!) 69 GTO. My own father had as our family car from 1967 to 1972 a 1962 Impala SS.

The definition of muscle car is no longer bad brakes or straightline acceleration only. In a modern way GTO does relate to the past.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
I always laugh when someone mentions "Sleeper Car" as a good thing.

In 95% of the cases, I think the term "Sleeper Car" is just a way to try and justify bad or uninspiring looks on an otherwise great car.

</font>

It's just a matter of taste Darth. Are you wrong for wanting a car that looks racy? No! Is someone else wrong for wanting a car that looks good but doesn't attract alot of attention? Of course not. It boils down to a matter of taste. What we do have in common, along with everyone else is that we like world class performance cars & we want GM to be in the game.

I loved the stealth nature of my Mustang coupes. I also loved the simple linebacker looks of my SC T-bird, & prefer the suttle yet sinister look of the recessed headlights of pre-98 Camaros to the latter versions. I know you are partial to Corvettes & racy designs. It's whatever one's taste is.

I wouldn't call a design bad (except Aztec) or uninspired (though the current Thunderbird comes dangerously close) for going the low keyed route. Jaguar has done it for years, and Pontiac is most certainly going that direction.

On a positive note, I Chevrolet is going to be the more daring design division within the new "Lutz" GM. The family design bar won't be on everything, but Chevrolets won't be "sleepers" in design anymore.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
muckz -&gt; you wrote,"Are you hearing that MOST or the majority of people are satisfied with current upcoming GTO?" Well yes, I am aware of that, and all I have to say is that the same could be said of the F4 introduction, the Monte Carlo reintroduction, the Lumina debut, and countless other car intro's. </font>

Don't put Monte Carlo and Lumina/Impala into the same boat as GTO. Lumina/Impala/Monte Carlo has mass appeal, but not necessarily enthusiasts' appeal. GTO actually has the appeal of majority of enthusiasts.

GTO is a car that most performance enthusiasts asked for, save the name. It has:
1. RWD
2. powerful V8
3. Option of 6-speed.
4. Great handling and IRS.
5. Better visibility / ergonomics than F4.
6. Coupe, not 2+2 seater, with usable back seats.

We want RWD/V8 performance vehicles. Seeing as there is currently no F5, nor are there any plans for immediate/future production of it, making available a car such as Monaro coupe here is something that we ask[ed] for. Again, save for naming the car GTO &lt;sigh&gt;.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I had a great weekend and I'm ready! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif</font>

Hopefully it won't get spoiled by any posts here. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by muckz (edited July 01, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
Don't put Monte Carlo and Lumina/Impala into the same boat as GTO. Lumina/Impala/Monte Carlo has mass appeal, but not necessarily enthusiasts' appeal. GTO actually has the appeal of majority of enthusiasts.</font>

I wasn't insinuating that the cars were of the same class or caliber, I was making a point about resurrection of old names and how they don't ever end up representing their legend-making ancestors. That was all I was saying.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
GTO is a car that most performance enthusiasts asked for, save the name.</font>

YUP - There you go! I fit squarely into that category as well. I don't see why all the others have such a big stigma about this? Our dissention is not due to any performance issues, it's the styling based on the name. Change one or the other, and we should all be happy. Quite simple, isn't it? (muckz, you realize that you may be heckled and have stones cast at you if I declare you a "con"-man, and pick you to be on my team, right? http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif LMAO!)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
We want RWD/V8 performance vehicles. Seeing as there is currently no F5, nor are there any plans for immediate/future production of it, making available a car such as Monaro coupe here is something that we ask[ed] for. Again, save for naming the car GTO &lt;sigh&gt;.</font>

I'm not sure I buy into the "we asked for it" thing as much as Lutz and the boyz saw fruit in the neigbors yard and decided to pick it... quick. I do think Lutz realized that NO RWD V8 for GM would have been unforgiveable, and this was the fastest/cheapest solution.

BTW, I would expect nothing less than a few arousing posts, but I'm actually kind of getting used to the abuse! Kind of sick, huh? http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Well, I don't know if that constitutes me in the con crowd. Maybe there are 2 groups of cons.

First crowd. Most everyone who attacked GTO attacked it on the basis that it was Grand Prix and Grand Am, and basically trashing for the lack of innovation, etc.. etc... I have a very fair analogy for you: LT1 Camaro and Geo Storm are practically the same car by your standards.

The other crowd likes the upcoming car, but would have it named something else.

I personally do not have a problem with the car named GTO, in my opinion it has the meat to live up to the heritage. But because of all the commotion that it stirs among true purists (for whatever reasons, be it styling or lack of hood tach) I would stay away from naming it such if I had a say in GM. Of course, we all know that it would be equivalent of speaking to the great wall of China.

This thread proves my point that unhappy people are always the one that are heard. the poll on my site is nearing 1000 votes and 80% of those who voted love the design. In that poll less than 15% actually don't like the car. I am willing to bet that an LS1 Camaro would have a lower appoval rating in a similar poll. I doubt that GM will have trouble selling these cars http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif I am wondering how many people who are complaining on here would actually buy one if it was more inovative...given the $35K MSRP is will probally have and dealer mark ups.

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DUDE! I though it was just me...although I think that the 2004 GTO is a decent looking car but I though that I was the only one who thought it looks like a souped-up Grand Prix.But hell...but i'm just glad it doesnt look like that ugly ass Aztek and I doubt very seriously that it would take the place of the F-Body (in my opinion two of the coolest American cars ever made LOL).

maybe you aren't old enough to appreciate a nice coupe like this. It reminds me of how the GTO looked just like the Le Mans and Tempest back in the day. Wow, what a coincidence.

Okay while I was not born during the muscle car era, I still prefer the styling of the "old-school" GTO judge and other cars from that era. GM needs to get back to it's roots and design a real muscle car and leave the imports where they are because in 30 years I hope not to see a re-worked Honda civic being called a Firebird or Camaro.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 305fan:
Well it's not a real hot looker but at least it's no Aztek!! 7 out of 10.

A Ram Air Hood would liven it up.
I'd like to see a rear shot.

If Pontiac is going upscale towards BMW- this is the perfect car. BMW's look good- no one would call them beautiful or sexy though-
but they are a true high performnace car with
a rep Pontiac would kill for</font>

I beg to differ. Pontiac needs to stop trying to keep up with the Jones's (BMW Mercedes-Benz etc)and build another kick-ass muscle car.They [pontiac] needs to learn that
those European styling cues that they have been tinkering with for the past few years are not working for them.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dre_d_madman:
They [pontiac] needs to learn that
those European styling cues that they have been tinkering with for the past few years are not working for them. </font>

I really do not see much, if at all, european cues in any of Pontiac's lineup. Especially the Azztek, the laughingstock of design (not engineering, but design). Edit: Solstice is a good example - while it has that european appeal, it still looks american to me.

You also have to keep in mind that any transition takes time, and since it's something new (european styling) for GM, I'm sure it'll take them twice as long. Plus, they're GM, so double that time again.

Some of the upcoming vehicles, in my opinion, are very good at keeping American styling with something of an appeal to europeans.

Mind you, european styling is good only on their flagship vehicles (Audi, Mercedez, BMW, Aston Martin, Jaguar &lt;subjective&gt;, etc..), there are a lot of middle- and low-class vehicles that are quite ugly, some of them beat Azzteks by a long shot. I certainly wouldn't want THAT to influence Pontiac.

Edit: just out of the blue, why does GM try to do european styling? What is wrong with true american styling, especially the muscle car era of the late 60's and early 70's? European styling will wear out here eventually, then people will be asking for true american heritage.

[This message has been edited by muckz (edited August 08, 2002).]

Actually I think they are going for American heritage..just got to build on it..the ball is rolling..case in point..Thunderbird, GT40, and Mustang..Amercan heritage..
D/C..PT cruiser, Prowler new Charger, stuf like that..
GM..umm umm ..ohh the vette...the T/A is american all the way..SS Camaro..umm..SSR?? maybee..
BUT Caddy..big bad caddies..soo what if they are SUV's..the Escalade is AWSOME!..so it is gaining ground..just need more AMERICAN muscle..the GTO will be better..and an LS1 CTS...can you say easy 500HP caddy..ohh yea... http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif BMW eat your heart out..corvette Fbody tech with all the aftermarket stuff..in a caddy..I would want one.. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif
GM is comming around..soon..isnt there supposed to be 7 RWD cars atthe next auto show..??

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Congrats Tony L. of the "ODG" Owner of The BBC 6SP 81 Malibu

Making Hot Rod Mags top 10 cars of 2001!!

I skimmed over all 9 pages and I still can't understand how this topic is a 9 page thread LOL!. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

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'93 Camaro Z28 Automatic with a ZL1 hood.
No bottle.
No blower.
383 cubic inch serving of horsepower...hold the rice please.
Thats all you need to know.
ICQ: 23984221
Gripenfelter's Homepage (http://pages.sprint.ca/Gripenfelter)

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily supported or indicative of the Government of Canada or any other Federal Employee.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gripenfelter:
I skimmed over all 9 pages and I still can't understand how this topic is a 9 page thread LOL!. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

</font>

as far as the GTO goes expect something big...not news based coming from GMI in the next week or two http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

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Branden-Founder-www.GMInsidenews.com-The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4 (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm) White with red leather! SOLD 1979 Firbird Formula 400HO!
Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

Brandon - what's up with GMI at the moment? Got a page saying that the domanin had been suspended?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Decromin:
Brandon - what's up with GMI at the moment? Got a page saying that the domanin had been suspended?</font>

http://web.camaross.com/bb/Forum16/HTML/035795.html

I had to cancell the account yesterday to get off the server that never worked anyway. I am waiting on network solutions to fix my DNS's then I will be running on Zanaes server.

The good thing is it has allowed me to move full steam ahead on my new project.

Hey Docromin do you know alot abou Manaro history? If so can you email me at branden_firebird79@yahoo.com?

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Branden-Founder-www.GMInsidenews.com-The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4 (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm) White with red leather! SOLD 1979 Firbird Formula 400HO!
Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

[This message has been edited by formula79 (edited August 10, 2002).]