Idea for a GTO tagline:)

The Original Muscle Car...REBORN!

What do you all think?

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Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4 (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm)
White with red leather
1979 Firebird Formula SOLD!!! 8/2001
Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
The Original Muscle Car...REBORN!

What do you all think?

</font>

I think this is more appropriate:

The original muscle car: Raped and left for dead.

http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif



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'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

I like it,

Simple and succinct.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
I think this is more appropriate:

The original muscle car: Raped and left for dead.

http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif

</font>

How can you say that?

I think the new GTO is a very trut to the original formula.

who cares if Holden makes it...and as far as styling...it could have looked like the Aztek http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

I am pretty sure it will give your 69 a run for its money.

Also I like the undertated look. If a car is undertsated from the factory then the people who like add one can do it themself.


------------------
Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4 (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm)
White with red leather
1979 Firebird Formula SOLD!!! 8/2001
Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

Standing tall for V6 F-body owners everywhere! (http://www.stmaryscountyonline.net/carrot.htm)

That's pretty good. Have that in a commercail and play "Little GTO" by the Beachboys.

Sounds good to me. Pontiac should use the Little GTO song too. (off topic here......)I dont know how anyone can possibly complain about this car...with all the front drive nonsense coming from GM over the years and so many people wanting Holdens...we should be thankful the GTO is not like that lifeless fwd car they call the Impala!! I think the Monaro would also make a nice Chevelle.

Oh yeah, 305fan, I think that would be Ronnie And The Daytonas....someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The car is not even here yet and it's a show-stopper. The female buyer percentage will be significantly higher than 4th gen f-body. Not teenage girls, but ladies 30 - 50, definitely getting in on the act. The "REBORN" slogan is the perfect fit.. that is, IF they plan to keep the GTO around! which I hope they do. No sense in using that slogan if they kill it in a few years or if they're unsure of its future.

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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

People, the car is a Grand Prix/Am with a V8, RWD, and GTO emblems on it. How can you not be against the looks of the car?? Just because its gonna be a GM musclecar you settle for whatever BS they throw you?? We should go crazy like the F**d guys did until they got what they wanted. Its supposed to be a GTO, it should have some cues. Its almost like what they did with the looks of the new Impala, has nothing to do with the looks of any Impala among other things. That car looking like that should not be called GTO, I would think B.L. would have done better than this, and I hope he does still.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 24, 2002).]

Ronnie and the Daytonas did Little GTO.
They should use that in the new commercials but they'll have to change it a bit.
The original says, "little GTO, you really drive me wild. 3 dueces and a 4-speed, and a 389,....".
The new one would have to say something like, "little GTO, you really drive me (something that rhymes with six), fuel injection and a 6 speed, and a 346,...".

And they should bring back the Tiger campaign, with the tiger tails sticking out of the trunk. The GeeTeeOh ads. The GRRRRR ads. They need to use the old taglines of "The Great One" and "The Humbler".

There was one ad (GM got into a bit of trouble with it) that showed a '68 or '69 Verdoro Green GTO from the side, on the road, ready to make a turn from a feeder road onto Woodward Ave.

They ought to hire Jim Wangers to come up with an ad. He'd do the car proud.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
People, the car is a Grand Prix/Am with a V8, RWD, and GTO emblems on it. How can you not be against the looks of the car?? Just because its gonna be a GM musclecar you settle for whatever BS they throw you?? We should go crazy like the F**d guys did until they got what they wanted. Its supposed to be a GTO, it should have some cues. Its almost like what they did with the looks of the new Impala, has nothing to do with the looks of any Impala among other things. That car looking like that should not be called GTO, I would think B.L. would have done better than this, and I hope he does still.</font>

IZ28, I guess I'm with you and GOATCRAZY on this one. I hope nobody thinks I don't like the car itself for any performance or styling reasons alone. It's the fact that it has been labelled a GTO. I spoke my peace about this several months ago in other threads, and I will not change my mind at this point.

GM chose to revive that moniker, they should have used cues from the originals to "make it obvious" that it was intended to be a GTO. (It didn't have to be a total redesign, but geesh - it IS another freakin' Grand Prix!) At this rate, GM will run out of performance names to throw on new stuff by next year! AND - I've said it before, I'll say it again... your beloved Camaro and Firebird names are now fair game too. Be very careful of how you all post on this GTO issue - it may come back to haunt you soon.

Slogans? Sales pitch? Yeah, like maybe...

The GTO - You gotta love it! Cause it's all they offered us.

or

The GTO - A nice performance V8 like old cars used to get but with some alloy pieces and a computer, a well-tuned suspension, all skillfully shrouded with a Grand Prix body. The boys at the Country Club will surely recognize "You've made it!" when they see you in this!

IZ28 is right here guys. EVEN IF YOU LIKE THE CAR FOR ALL THAT IT IS (and I DO like the car), you should still go crazy and blast GM for robbing the glory and name from another past legend to secure some quick sales. If you spout off on this forum about how much you love what GM has done - they will keep on doing it. Do you really like this as a GTO? Wouldn't you like it just as well if it were a Catalina or something else? So get ready for your '06 Camaro, with it's hi-tech V6 (no V8 option) and 4-doors. Because if that's what's "in" at that time and GM needs to sell cars, your beloved name will be on it.[edit] You've approved the process right here, right now by smooching up to this MONERO, er GTO, er um, whatever.

Flamesuit AND Common Sense meter - both on. Please just think about it a second before you write...

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 24, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
People, the car is a Grand Prix/Am with a V8, RWD, and GTO emblems on it. How can you not be against the looks of the car?? Just because its gonna be a GM musclecar you settle for whatever BS they throw you?? We should go crazy like the F**d guys did until they got what they wanted. Its supposed to be a GTO, it should have some cues. Its almost like what they did with the looks of the new Impala, has nothing to do with the looks of any Impala among other things. That car looking like that should not be called GTO, I would think B.L. would have done better than this, and I hope he does still.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 24, 2002).]</font>

I totally agree! It looks like a grand prix, and close to a cavalier. I wish GM could do something new and original for a change. What a pos this car turned out to be!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JasonK94Z:
I totally agree! It looks like a grand prix, and close to a cavalier. I wish GM could do something new and original for a change. What a pos this car turned out to be!</font>

You guys can't be serious. A POS? Looks like a Grand Prix so it's crap. I get it. Kinda like the '93 Camaro looked like a Geo Storm so it was crap. Now everyone loves it. Someone had a quote or stat about 50% of people love a new design, 50% hate...then 75% of the people that hate it come around to liking it. I would think most of you would put more value in the content of the car anyways--it's bringing a lot more to the table than its looks. This car has 350HP!! Everyone bitched about the retro, no-imagination Thunderbird. Now everyone is pissed GM didn't do the same thing with the GTO. The Bel Air concept got ridiculed too--there's a car with some styling cues but not an all-out copy and no one liked it. We'll see how many of you change your tune once you actually see the car in person. "It's a Cavalier with 350hp, V8, rwd, 6-spd, irs--it sux! Where's the orange paint, decals, and wing?" http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

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-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

Oh, and as far as advertising for this, you gotta have the tiger in there somewhere with clips from the original's commercials.

[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 24, 2002).]

I have to say I agree with everything ProudP just said. Keep saying "sure, I'll buy it because its a GTO" and they'll keep the BS going instead of doing whats right and giving the people what they really want. People like the looks of the 93 Camaro?? (Well, they do look better than the current 1's but still) Yup, the looks and sales of the 4th Gen sure were impressive, put the car right on hiatus after 3 Gens and 25 years of incredible sales and interest. LOL, it looks like the people who designed the 4th Gens designed the GTO, DOH. I hope not, I don't think I'd let them design anything anymore. The car has to stand out, it has to be a car you can go to a cruise night or car show with and know people are gonna like it and say "theres the new GTO!!", not "that looks just like a Grand Am/Prix."



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 24, 2002).]

The current Camaro or Corvette don't look anything like their originals - why aren't you complaining about them?

The first muscle car I ever rode in (besides the Vettes my dad would get through his work) was my grandfather's 1967 GTO H.O. My first love is the Corvette, but the GTO is right behind it along with the F-bodies. I was talking with my grandfather this past weekend about the new GTO. He was really impressed by the Holden's looks and specs. It amazes me that people could be so mad that GM brings back a legendary car done right. Two doors, rear wheel drive, push rod V8 power, full size back seat, along with handsome good looks that aren't over the top is what the GTO is all about. The GTOs from 64-67 were very cleanly styled (re: not ostentatious as some of the current Pontiacs have come off.) just as the new appears to be

This is 2002. Cars are made differently. The fact that this GTO is made in Oz is no different than the way the f-bodies have been made in Canada the past 10 years. Things change. Retro styling was just a fad. A fad that has gotten very old very fast. Once the novelty wears off, a retro car has nothing. Keep in mind that we have yet to see a production version of this car. I'm betting that even just a sketch doesn't due it justice.

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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6 (http://ws6bird.cz28.com/)
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sixer-Bird:

Retro styling was just a fad. A fad that has gotten very old very fast. Once the novelty wears off, a retro car has nothing. Keep in mind that we have yet to see a production version of this car. I'm betting that even just a sketch doesn't due it justice.

</font>

I agree, and I have no problem whatsoever with the GTO not being retro... I am all for a forward thinking design...

My problem with GTO's styling is not that it lacks retro styling, but because it is a virtual clone of a car currently in their lineup.... The current Grand Prix coupe.

I mean... it looks exactly like a Grand Prix...


[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 24, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
People, the car is a Grand Prix/Am with a V8, RWD, and GTO emblems on it. How can you not be against the looks of the car?? Just because its gonna be a GM musclecar you settle for whatever BS they throw you?? We should go crazy like the F**d guys did until they got what they wanted. Its supposed to be a GTO, it should have some cues. Its almost like what they did with the looks of the new Impala, has nothing to do with the looks of any Impala among other things. That car looking like that should not be called GTO, I would think B.L. would have done better than this, and I hope he does still.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 24, 2002).]</font>

In other words, we should ignore the 350+ horsepower LS1 (or 6) engine, the 6 speed manual transmission, the rear wheel drive, the Independent Rear Suspension, the world class interior with 4 bucket seats, and the fact that the only other 4 seater that will run with it for under 40 grand needs a supercharger to do it, apparently by one's view of it being BS, simply because it isn't retro enough??

I like the new GTO, it's cleaner than the GP and not as oddly proportioned. Doesn't look oddly long or have wierd lines on the sides.

Smooth, clean, nice looking car.

Looks like GOATCRAZY managed to post his "I HATE IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT MADE IN THE US" before anyone else got here.

Anyways, that tagline is pretty simple and good, although kind of cliche.

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Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

[This message has been edited by MunchE (edited June 24, 2002).]

Proud Pony,
By your reasoning, if GM keeps giving us what we praise them for building (that is your thinking, isn't it), then soon, GM will be building nothing but mid-size, 2-door, RWD, V-8 coupes. And that's a bad thing because...?

Wow, some people just don't get it. You guys wanna say good things about the Grand GTO and keep getting things that look like this from GM while the other companies are getting cool looking cars, fine. Not me and any other entusuaists, especially a GM 1. We have been dealing with ****** stying for a while now. I bet the Charger has some cues and doesn't look like all of their other cars. I showed that picture to a few people and lets just say they weren't impressed AT ALL.

"The current Camaro or Corvette don't look anything like their originals - why aren't you complaining about them?"

Did you read my previous post??



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 25, 2002).]

How many retro styled cars have been a sucess after the initial fuss has died down? This car needs to stand on it's own merit - not hang off the shirt tails of it's predecessor.

Oh, and you didn't explain the Vette ...

And I do not want the car to be that. Look at some concepts like !!TED!!'s. As for the Corvette, a cue or 2 from those cars back then would be cool. You do not have to make a car look entirely like a modern version of a car from way back, but some things are nice.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
You guys can't be serious. A POS? Looks like a Grand Prix so it's crap. I would think most of you would put more value in the content of the car anyways--it's bringing a lot more to the table than its looks....</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
In other words, we should ignore the 350+ horsepower LS1 (or 6) engine, the 6 speed manual transmission, the rear wheel drive, the Independent Rear Suspension, the world class interior with 4 bucket seats...</font>

You guys dissapointed me on this one. I gave you more credit than to put up responses like this. How many times do I have to type this in...
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
I hope nobody thinks I don't like the car itself for any performance or styling reasons alone. It's the fact that it has been labelled a GTO.</font>
PLEASE READ WHAT IS THERE BEFORE POSTING.


I have not seen IZ28, JasonK94Z, GOATCRAZY, or myself write anything negative about the car's performance or the intrinsic "car" itself - our issues are with the styling based on it being called a GTO. What I'm trying to say is, "if you are going to link this new car to the old GTO in performance by name, then do it in styling cues too."

Or how's this, "If it doesn't look like a GTO, why call it one? Just because it can "perform" at a high level? Because it has a great suspension? If "good performance" is all you need to wear a GTO badge, then Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, Cudas, Challengers, Torinos, and every other car that ever had performance characteristics should have been called GTO's too."

Now, the argument that you guys (jrp4uc, Decromin, Sixer-Bird, guionM, and a few others) are using to defend the car is basically - "screw the name and/or styling, look at the performance package and interior". So, by the same argument, if I were to put the same drivetrain and interior into an AMC Pacer body, and stick GTO badges on the side of it, you guys would still love it and want to buy one, right? After all - it has , and I quote, "the 350+ horsepower LS1 (or 6) engine, the 6 speed manual transmission, the rear wheel drive, the Independent Rear Suspension, the world class interior with 4 bucket seats", etc. Screw the looks, it's a GTO and it'll rock! (I know this is a lame example, but it makes my point.)

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Decromin:
The current Camaro or Corvette don't look anything like their originals - why aren't you complaining about them?</font>

50% good point, 50% shoot own foot.
The Vette is "different car/different market" and is actually doing OK in sales. But if you will recall, there were quite a few complaints about the "new Z06" and the 50th anniversary "stripe kit". Several threads were filled with critisism.

As for the Camaro, well... averaging 40K units/year for the last gen doesn't exactly say everyone was pleased with it. I have read many "suggestions" on this site about how it could be restyled with less overhang, better visibilty, no whale's @$$, etc. by true blue Bowtie Boys that proudly own them.

By the way, NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE A RETRO THEME. I/We didn't ASK for GM to "revive" the GTO for us. Ford was asked to put some original cues back into the Mustang for '94 models though, and I think it has helped the car's image and recongition factors tremendously, but that's JMO.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger on this one. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sixer-Bird:
I was talking with my grandfather this past weekend about the new GTO. He was really impressed by the Holden's looks and specs. It amazes me that people could be so mad that GM brings back a legendary car done right...</font>

Sixer-Bird,
You seem to be ignoring the fact that you too have an identification problem with this car. Look above in bold. Which is it... a GTO? or a Holden? maybe just a GM "product"? or is it a Monero? or maybe just a modded Grand Prix on 'roids with a body kit?

I, like you and your grandfather, am impressed with the Holden Monero. I really like the car. But call it what it was designed to be and produced as... a Holden Monero for Pete's sake! It is NOT a GTO, based on the GTO that your Grandfather owned and you rode in as a kid. The impression that GTO gave you as a kid must have been a great one, as you still recall it today - that mystique is why the car is legendary my friend. Nobody says you can't like it, but this new car shares nothing (design-wise) with the old GTO. (and don't you guys start with the "4 seats" and "V8 sleeper" thing because there is a basket full of 4-seater V8's out there - that's a lame debate.)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
By your reasoning, if GM keeps giving us what we praise them for building (that is your thinking, isn't it), then soon, GM will be building nothing but mid-size, 2-door, RWD, V-8 coupes. And that's a bad thing because...?</font>

HuJass, I see your point. I can't honestly say it's a totally bad thing that we all praise GM for "giving" us a RWD V8 coupe at this time. But in the same context, how would you shop if you went to the GM dealer only to find the lot full of nothing but RWD V8 coupes - that were all identical in shape and design (Grand Prix/Grand Am/GTO style) - but each one had a different name. Let's see, the red ones will be the GTOs, the blue ones will be called Impalas, the white ones will be called Monte Carlos, the pink ones will be Bel-Aires, the yellow ones will be Novas, the grey ones will be Malibus, the black ones will be Firebirds, the orange ones will be Camaros, etc. etc. See my point? The cookie-cutter at it's finest... production costs are as low as possible, everybody gets a sporty car that looks great (even if very similar), and we all discern ourselves solely by the model name GM puts on the fender. Hot-chick says to you in parking lot,"Oh I just love your car! Is it a GTO, Camaro, or Bel-Aire?" You should be able to recognize a car by it's distinct characteristics - visually. With the GTO proposal, it ain't happening.

Again, I'm not down on the performance aspect of what has been done with this Monero(GTO-not). It's awesome. I am down on GM's continuing practice of degrading legendary model names. If they can't give the GTO the time and money to do a new performance car with some retro cues on it - leave the name to rest in peace.

OK - flamesuit still not leaking, bring it on if you feel you gotta. But guys, please, read what we are trying to say here in full, not in bits and pieces. Don't let your extreme desire for an F-body replacement "RWD V8 coupe", turn into a willingness to accept anything GM throws at you with passion. You may be setting a trend that you will later regret.
IMHO, either do a job right, or don't do it at all.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
Now, the argument that you guys (jrp4uc, Decromin, Sixer-Bird, guionM, and a few others) are using to defend the car is basically - "screw the name and/or styling, look at the performance package and interior". So, by the same argument, if I were to put the same drivetrain and interior into an AMC Pacer body, and stick GTO badges on the side of it, you guys would still love it and want to buy one, right? After all - it has , and I quote, "the 350+ horsepower LS1 (or 6) engine, the 6 speed manual transmission, the rear wheel drive, the Independent Rear Suspension, the world class interior with 4 bucket seats", etc. Screw the looks, it's a GTO and it'll rock! (I know this is a lame example, but it makes my point.)
</font>

No, you're taking our comments out of context. It is not a GTO soley for those reasons. It's humble styling and attitude are nothing but characteristic of the orignal GTOs--and 350hp, 6spd, rwd, and irs back up that image. Given what they have to work with, (a front and rear bumper), I am satisfied with how this was executed. I can't say I care for any of the renditions posted by everyone else anymore. Most look out of place, as would any other car from 2002 with a '68 bumper and hood attached. It just doesn't look right. You can't add scoops and vents for the sake of having them if they don't fit the lines of the car. Just the same, how much '67 Z28 do you see in the '02?

If I were to put the same spin on your comments as you put on mine, any car with a Ram Air hood is a GTO. I've got a WRX with a hood scoop--is it more "GTO" than what GM is pushing? What sense does that make? Especially in light of the recently defunct, over-the-top Trans Am--GM is not going to go overboard just for the sake of doing it if they think their target audience isn't looking for that. It would be a lot easier to tastefullyadd that stuff on later (see Corvette Z06) than try and peel it off to make the car more mature after being poorly received.

I don't think Vipers were being mistaken for Dodge Avengers just because their front ends were similar. People have posted profile pics of the HSV Monaro; where do you see a Grand Prix? We all want the best GTO possible. I really consider myself a potential buyer (post-hysteria and markups). Given how out of character this entire venture is for GM, I don't think we could have anticipated anything edgy. That's not an excuse. Infact, it could be a compliment considering how retro-crazy other manufactures appear to be.

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
No, you're taking our comments out of context. It is not a GTO soley for those reasons. It's humble styling and attitude are nothing but characteristic of the orignal GTOs--and 350hp, 6spd, rwd, and irs back up that image. Given what they have to work with, (a front and rear bumper), I am satisfied with how this was executed.</font>

Where have you seen me write that the performance was not good? Likewise, where have I written that the styling is not nice? The implication is solely in the naming of this car. Some defense of (using) the name has been based on performance alone or "shared styling with brand siblings of the era", and I don't give those issues any merits on their own. That was my debate.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
If I were to put the same spin on your comments as you put on mine, any car with a Ram Air hood is a GTO. I've got a WRX with a hood scoop--is it more "GTO" than what GM is pushing? What sense does that make?</font>

Well, in fact that may be the case. Let's put the two hoods (a WRX and the GTO/Monaro) in an empty room and let 100 general populus walk through and choose which hood implies "GTO" to them. I'll wager you the WRX hood will win. Granted, the car as a whole won't compare. But the point being that I think people in general will associate a scooped hood with a GTO more often than not. The other big difference is that nobody on the street thinks of a 30-year-old musclecar when you say "Subaru WRX".

Why the association thing? The GTO has been dead for 30 years man! Do you honestly think GM can use the name GTO without expecting you to associate that name to the legendary performer of yesteryear? Please, that's exactly what they want you to do! But that's where the retro and styling cues issues come into play. Since GM decided to use past impressions of a GTO to conjure up performance in my head and get me to their showroom, they have also allowed me to use my concept of what the GTO was. Now if my image of a GTO has a ram air hood, unique wheels, unique grill, etc. then what makes it wrong for me to expect to see those features on a car called a GTO - whether it was made 30 years ago or tomorrow?

If it's a totally new car, give it a totally new name, then you haven't risked this alienation of loyal GTO followers, or people who expect a GTO to have old GTO features. If it's an old car that has continuously evolved - that's cool. If it's a car named after a historic model, then give it some physical association with that model at least. But why even use a name with heritage on something totally unassociated with the original? It's a cheap shot by GM to sell cars based on the laurels of a past model. IMHO, it's a wasted bullet too, because I think the Monaro would still sell all 20K units if it wore the Monaro badges and had no body alterations at all. So here's just another name (GTO) pulled out of history and thrown around carelessly again by the good ol' General in an effort to ensure sales.

[edit]I mean this post in good spirits, no flames intended. Hope this doesn't read like I'm anal about the GTO. I just want you guys to be careful with your praise - Camaro's may be next in the "give that car a name" game.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]

Proud Pony,

The picture that was in the newspaper that I was showing my grandfather was of the actual Holden Monaro, not the Pontiac picture. This is as close to a modern day GTO as anyone could come. The original GTOs were based off Tempests and Le Mans. They had different badges as people have stated in other threads. I guess that some people will never be pleased.

------------------
-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6 (http://ws6bird.cz28.com/)
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash

I'm glad that so many of your guys have already made up your minds about disliking this car as a GTO and written it in stone, simply from one tiny 3/4 angle sketch showing an unsatisfactory front grill. That's really amusing. For the rest of us, it just means higher availability. And don't forget the 50/50/75 rule: many of you critics will be buying it as an '05 after finding that there are no 04's left.

------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

I just want to go on record as saying that I don't think the new GTO looks like a GP. It resembles a GP in the fascia, but that's where the similarities end. The rest of the car is all different. And the grilles don't appear to be GP grilles. The GP's are more horizontal and recessed. That gray section on the lower nose is not there. The fog lights are different. I think that the similarities were intentional. All the manufacturers do this. They try to make their models look like a family, so that they're easily recognizable as a particular brand. Look how similar the 71-72 GTOs were to the 70-73 Firebirds. No one got upset then.
And I keep hearing about cues. Take a look at my other thread about trying to figure out which old GTO the new one looks like. There you will read about how the new GTO has twin split grilles above the bumper, like the '70 did. It has the arrowhead between the grilles, like the '70. It has a mask in the composite lights that represent separate twin headlights on each side, like the '70. It has the slot below the bumper, like the '70. And it has lights flanking either side of the slot, like the '70 did. Are these not cues?
I said it before and I'll say it again here. I think the problem is that Pontiac raped the GTO themes for the last 2 generations of the GP. So now when people see those themes on a car, they immediately think GP.
And another thing. When the new GP comes out in 2004, it won't look anything like the current GP. Just look at the show car, the GP G-force. The new GTO doesn't look like that car. That car is butt-ugly.
And even JIm Wangers himself (the father of GTO advertising) said that the new GTO "should have a "kissin'-cousin" look to some of the existing Pontiacs...". It's called brand recognition.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kizz:
I'm glad that so many of your guys have already made up your minds about disliking this car as a GTO and written it in stone, simply from one tiny 3/4 angle sketch showing an unsatisfactory front grill. That's really amusing. For the rest of us, it just means higher availability. And don't forget the 50/50/75 rule: many of you critics will be buying it as an '05 after finding that there are no 04's left.
</font>

kizz,
I hope you are right and I am wrong, for the sake of the GTO name and for GM performance hopes as a whole. But if I'm right and you are wrong, you will have spent $35/40k for a car that could have a reputation and resale issue like the Malibu, Nova, Impala, and others in a few years. GRANTED, this car is far more refined and performs far better than those others, but my implication is that the new GTO just isn't what the old name suggested to many of us, so the reputation and resale diminishes quickly. So if it's what you want - buy it. I won't.

Likewise, there will always be people who are just "car buyers". They could care less about history, heritage, or model evolution - a car is a car. There are even some posting in this forum. If they like what they see, regardless of what it is or how it got there, they'll buy it. I'll bet that more than half of the affluent people who buy these 20K cars couldn't point out a '71 GTO in a picture book if you got them to the right page. Lucky for GM and Holden, huh? Remember the phrase, "There's a sucker born every minute."?

My point... some people will buy anything, but some have higher standards or a more stringent set of criteria for particular models. I am one of the latter. I won't support GM's monetarily-motivated slandering of another legendary model name. Sorry if my views offend anyone, but thankfully it's a free country!

OK then here is the line:

GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars. LOL.

PP,

I'm just saying it's something to think about to give it a chance, give it the benefit of the doubt, until you can set your own eyes on a driveable car, not some tiny prototype sketch. Wait till you can sit in it and get a feel for it. Wait till you *hear* it idling, see it, test drive it. You probably know that most subtleties about a car never come across till you're in it, experiencing it first hand. If you've already ruled out the only foreseeable Pontiac RWD V8 coupe available, Then I guess there are plenty of cheerful Sunfires to choose from. We're forgetting it's a stopgap too.

You guys will settle for whatever.

Yeah, I guess we will settle for whatever. I like settling for a 350 HP V-8, RWD, manual, coupe. Just call me a settler.

There is no denying the platform, that america GM swayed away from in the 80s/90s is favour of the FWD platforms it was trying to push...

It has proven itself time and time again, on the international stage, with record sales figures, it has left Ford Australia with two black eyes and scratching their heads, and theatens to spread like an epidemic throughtout the world....

It is my friends none other that the V-Car GM2800 platform, and has been developed by australia into so much more than its humble beginings as the opel omega/catera, they are now developing the 4WD version + Ls1 , now thats gonna be something else...

The GTO is just the begining ,,, be prepared as GM realizes what this car is and becomes at least a big chunk of GM platforms including the 4-door and Ute , maybe even the return of the caprice long wheelbase.

Retro styling is so.....yesterday.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
Yeah, I guess we will settle for whatever. I like settling for a 350 HP V-8, RWD, manual, coupe. Just call me a settler.</font>

HuJass,
I don't really mean to flame you on this, but while you "settle" into your "gift" from the General, I'm gonna be struggling to decide how to spend my $ on V8 RWD's - Mach1, Cobra, Marauder, T-bird, Forty-Nine, or maybe go tuner with a Saleen, Roush, Steeda, or Kenny Brown. Nevermind the Lightning, SVT Focus, GT-40 and such because they don't "fit" for various reasons.

I didn't settle 10-15 years ago on Ford's Muskrat, like I'm not settling on this Holden now. By taking a ride on this kind of stuff, you're only killing yourselves. See where I'm coming from here?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kizz:
PP,

I'm just saying it's something to think about to give it a chance, give it the benefit of the doubt, until you can set your own eyes on a driveable car, not some tiny prototype sketch. Wait till you can sit in it and get a feel for it. Wait till you *hear* it idling, see it, test drive it. You probably know that most subtleties about a car never come across till you're in it, experiencing it first hand. If you've already ruled out the only foreseeable Pontiac RWD V8 coupe available, Then I guess there are plenty of cheerful Sunfires to choose from. We're forgetting it's a stopgap too.</font>

kizz, I can understand your point about giving them a chance. The problem with that is that if you don't like it after it gets here in production form - it's too late to fix anything then. All the tooling is done, the pipes are full of fabbed parts that will not be scrapped, and the line is running and staffed. The result will then be a flop that will likely be discontinued, not give another bazillion dollars to "try it again".

It is easier to be PROACTIVE than REACTIVE towards problems, especially in the car market. We need to blast GM with our feelings ASAP for them to still have time/money to react with before production. (Of course that assumes that they want our input and would actually listen to what we might have to say - another issue.)

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

Go look at a damn monero pic from the side. If you think thats a grand prix, i'm glad your not desighning any cars.you knew it would be a monero, you knew they were going to put a new pontiac grille, hood and rear on it, so why are you so suprised. you will all be eating your words when you see one in person. man, i woulda been happy with an RWD LS1 GP. How much ya think that woulda retailed for??? Now compare interiors, build quality, cassis, etc.... Damn,can't please everyone!!!

------------------
87 Grand National, 9 sec street car

2002 NBM WS.6 A4

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
HuJass,
I don't really mean to flame you on this, but while you "settle" into your "gift" from the General, I'm gonna be struggling to decide how to spend my $ on V8 RWD's - Mach1, Cobra, Marauder, T-bird, Forty-Nine, or maybe go tuner with a Saleen, Roush, Steeda, or Kenny Brown. Nevermind the Lightning, SVT Focus, GT-40 and such because they don't "fit" for various reasons.

I didn't settle 10-15 years ago on Ford's Muskrat, like I'm not settling on this Holden now. By taking a ride on this kind of stuff, you're only killing yourselves. See where I'm coming from here?</font>

Not taken as a flame.
Your a Ford guy. Maybe you guys don't understand GM. Every once in a great while, GM gives us a great car (let's not concern ourselves with names) and then suddenly gets rid of the car for whatever reasons. By GM's line of reasoning, if a car doesn't sell, they'll cancel it. Or they change the car to FWD V-6 crap.
And, GM doesn't react to criticism (whether good or bad) very well. They are too big. GM isn't a company who listens to what customers want and then gives them what they want. Never was their style.
Let's say that the majority of people expressed dissatisfaction with the new GTO (which we know the reverse is true), GM wouldn't go back and fix the car. They'd scrap the plan. Or bring it back as a FWD POS. GM doesn't work like Ford. So don't compare them to Ford.

And, quite frankly, this GTO is just the car I've been waiting for GM to build since they canceled the RWD G-bodies in 1988 (yes, '88. The RWD Cutlass Supreme lived on for that year as the Cutlass Supreme Classic).

AND, isn't the Maurauder just a lowered, black Grand Marquis with different wheels and grille and a little more power? Ya know there was a Mercury Maurauder built in the '60s. I don't see any cues or styling to suggest the '60s car. I think the old car was a 2 door while the new one is a 4 door.
By your own ideals, you should be jumping up and down and spitting nails right now. How dare they ruin the Maurauder name.

And why are you complaining about GM? You seem to be a dyed-in-the-wool Ford guy. You most likely would never buy a GM anyways. So don't worry about GM. Leave that up to us. We're the loyal GM fans.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
while you "settle" into your "gift" from the General, I'm gonna be struggling to decide how to spend my $ on V8 RWD's - Mach1, Cobra, Marauder, T-bird, Forty-Nine, or maybe go tuner with a Saleen, Roush, Steeda, or Kenny Brown.
</font>

Once a muskrat, always a muskrat. Half the cars you mentioned are souped up Muskrats. Have fun "settling" for 2nd best.

------------------
1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
Not taken as a flame.
Your a Ford guy. Maybe you guys don't understand GM. Every once in a great while, GM gives us a great car (let's not concern ourselves with names) and then suddenly gets rid of the car for whatever reasons. By GM's line of reasoning, if a car doesn't sell, they'll cancel it. Or they change the car to FWD V-6 crap.
And, GM doesn't react to criticism (whether good or bad) very well. They are too big. GM isn't a company who listens to what customers want and then gives them what they want. Never was their style.
Let's say that the majority of people expressed dissatisfaction with the new GTO (which we know the reverse is true), GM wouldn't go back and fix the car. They'd scrap the plan. Or bring it back as a FWD POS. GM doesn't work like Ford. So don't compare them to Ford. </font>

Well, I agree with you 100% here. All I can add is that for size, Ford is not exactly a back-yard shop making go-carts. Back in the 80's they weren't too good at listening to the buyers either. But things CAN change, and did in Ford's case. If enough people get heard by GM and the money flow is controlled right (i.e. selective purchases, etc.), I promise GM can change too.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
And, quite frankly, this GTO is just the car I've been waiting for GM to build since they canceled the RWD G-bodies in 1988 (yes, '88. The RWD Cutlass Supreme lived on for that year as the Cutlass Supreme Classic). </font>

That's great, and I'm glad the car is here for you at this point, really. But be honest w/me, wouldn't you still love this car if it were called a Pontiac Monaro?[edit] http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
AND, isn't the Maurauder just a lowered, black Grand Marquis with different wheels and grille and a little more power? Ya know there was a Mercury Maurauder built in the '60s. I don't see any cues or styling to suggest the '60s car. I think the old car was a 2 door while the new one is a 4 door.
By your own ideals, you should be jumping up and down and spitting nails right now. How dare they ruin the Maurauder name. </font>

Yes, the Marauder was made from the mid- to late-60's, and it is based on the Crown-Vic/Marquis platform. BUT, there ARE cues from the original in this new one. The upholstery has the old head of the "Mercury Messenger (http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2002/0211/maraud_seats.jpg) " in it, the shifter (http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2002_chicago/marauder/Marauder11.jpg) is in the floor/retro, the guages are retro (in center of console, too). Check this article... Mercury revives classic logo for new Marauder halo car. (http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&content_code=08416480) (This is really not the place to go into details about that car - but I understand what you were trying to say. It's cool.)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
And why are you complaining about GM? You seem to be a dyed-in-the-wool Ford guy. You most likely would never buy a GM anyways. So don't worry about GM. Leave that up to us. We're the loyal GM fans. </font>

Here's the part that hits a nerve. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif You are right, again. I am a true-blue-Ford-guy, no doubt. But I am also a musclecar lover. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif That includes Camaros, Firebirds, GTO's, and anything else that I can categorize as an American Musclecar - I don't car who makes it.

I started coming to this site (to read only) to get info on weaknesses of the LT1/LS1 stuff I am competing against. But I found that there are some awesome guys with some real passion about cars posting in this forum that had class enough to complement the Mustang for what it has done right. I have been against 86-ing the F-bods since I first heard about it, and there were some topics in this forum that were on that subject.

I finally decided to register and offer whatever help/advise I could as an "outsider". You see, while I love the cars and don't want to see them go away, I am not "blinded" by brand loyalty either, so I try to offer honest, heart-felt posts about things that I feel could help. Look around this entire forum - you won't find my posts anywhere but here in 5th gen - I don't come here to slam, I don't come here to lounge, I don't come here to flame, and I don't come here to gloat. I come here to "help". In my 15 years as a Mustang Club of America member, I have been through a lot with our car's evolution, and I am offering my experiences/advise to you all here in this crisis for the F-body.

SO - if you don't want my input or help getting an awesome Camaro back, no problem - you won't get it. But all the other enthusiasts who DO want support for an awesome Camaro's return will get it from me. After all, it's a free world, right? BTW - would you have nads-e-nuf to go post technical stuff like this on a Ford/Mustang board? Beleive me, I know this is not my home turf!
(I own two Maytags - don't that count for owning GM products? http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif)

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gifSorry to all for the long sermon, but he asked!! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
You guys will settle for whatever.</font>

I like the way the Monaro/GTO looks. It looks tasteful and clean, not gaudy and overdone. GM did it smart, and left the scoops and spoilers to the aftermarket or the ricers.

Besides which, if you take out IZ28 and GOATCRAZY, there are hardly any negative comments about the new GTO. They're just compliaining louder than everyone is complimenting, and don't mind doing it over and over and over again.

------------------
Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

QUOTE FROM PROUD PONY:
"Well, I agree with you 100% here. All I can add is that for size, Ford is not exactly a back-yard shop making go-carts. Back in the 80's they weren't too good at listening to the buyers either. But things CAN change, and did in Ford's case. If enough people get heard by GM and the money flow is controlled right (i.e. selective purchases, etc.), I promise GM can change too."
So, are you saying that in the mid-80s Ford did not listen to it's customers and now it does? Dude, do you realize that is like 15 YEARS? I'm not gonna wait 15 years on the hopes that GM will make something that supposedly will be better than what we have now.

QUOTE FROM PROUD PONY:
"That's great, and I'm glad the car is here for you at this point, really. But be honest w/me, wouldn't you still love this car if it were called a Pontiac Monaro?"
I probably would, but I also know cars and research them quite extensively, especially GMs. But the average person has no idea what a Monaro is, and therefore, maybe wouldn't buy it. And calling it a GTO makes it all the sweeter.

QUOTE FROM PROUD PONY:
"BTW - would you have nads-e-nuf to go post technical stuff like this on a Ford/Mustang board?"
No. For two reasons. I really don't know the intimate details of Ford & Mustang as well as a regular poster does, so therefore I would be at a disadvantage there. And I really don't care too much for Fords. Other than a few of their cars from the 60s and early 70s, they don't do anything for me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
Besides which, if you take out IZ28 and GOATCRAZY, there are hardly any negative comments about the new GTO. They're just compliaining louder than everyone is complimenting, and don't mind doing it over and over and over again.</font>

Nope there are others. And every person I have shown the picture to has reacted the same or even more so.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MunchE:
Besides which, if you take out IZ28 and GOATCRAZY, there are hardly any negative comments about the new GTO. They're just compliaining louder than everyone is complimenting, and don't mind doing it over and over and over again.

</font>

To quote IZ28:
"I agree."

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Burmite:
To quote IZ28:
"I agree."</font>

I disagree. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

I think we might all be well served to pick up the latest issue of "High Performance Pontiac" where a number of people, currently & previously associated with Pontiac performance or the original GTO voice their opinion on the new GTO. It might surprise or shock some of you. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

For those of us who don't get that mag within the continent, can you post some exerpts(sp?)?