2004 GTO looks like a Grand Prix???WTF???

First off I have a poll on my website and so far almost 4:1 the car is and overwhelming hit.


Now some rants...

I am willing to bet the complainers are the the same people who a few months ago were begging for a RWD LS1 Prand Prix...now its a bad thing it looks like one?WTF? We won't even touch the fact that the car is a totally different platform and has different proportions. The rear sits higher on the GTO, the car is overall taller. The grille also looks a bit taller. I am willing to bet when it is said and done there will no mistaking the new GTO.

For teh last five years Pontiac has been bashed by the press and consumers for haveing designs to racey, so it starts tone things down and now the GTO is "boring"?? I mean what did you want, a hood tach and judge decals? GM has shown time and tiem again that they generally do no do all out retro designs. The closest thing is the SSR and it doen't draw from a specific model like teh GTO would. That being said I also think if they would have went retro, they stood a much better chance of messing it up. As much as I like Ted's designs, if they would have made something similar it would have looked just plain odd in real life.

I love the complaints that it looks too much like Pontiac's other cars...WTF is supposed to look like? Look at the GTO's from the 60's....the look an aweful lot like the Grand Prixs, Le Mans, Tempests, and even first gen Firebirds's. Of course a new GTO si gonna look like the rest of the Pontiac family, it always has. Sure it had hood scoops here and there, but nothing that the new car can't do with out. If you want hood scoops and tachs there are plenty of companies I am sure in line to make them. I know some people will cricize everything GM does and I try and accept it, but there has to be a point somewhere where common sense sets in. GM didnt ahve to bring back the GTO and they didnt have to do teh program so fast...be thankful! I swear some people would complain if they sold Lamborghini's for $20,000 because teh dash rattles...

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Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
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It looks, at least from Pontiac's picture, exactly like the current Grand Prix.

Yes, I love the fact that it's a RWD, V8 car... and I do not dislike the car myself, but I find the styling to be a disappointment, because it is totally unoriginal, and a virtual clone of an existing car that has been out since 1997.

This car is going to have a dated appearance the minute it hits the showroom, because it looks like a Grand Prix .

Personally, I am happy the didn't attempt some lame retro theme... and I understand to get it here quick and within budget, they opted to change only the bumper caps from the Holden Monero... that's fine, and all, but I just don't think it had to be so close to Grand Prix in the grille shape, foglight positioning, etc...

I'm sure they will sell them all, because the GTO name has value, and they are limiting production ot 20,000... so they covered themselves, and no matter what, it'll be considered a success, because they all will sell out, even though it's a tiny number being made to begin with.




[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 25, 2002).]

Brandon, quit pettin' your dog over the new GTO, and stand back and take a long look at it. Reminds you of the Grand Prix doesn't it? Whats so special about a car that looks like any other car Pontiac already has? Sure, performance should be great, but the looks don't get some of us very excited. I know I couldn't look at it and be excited about hopping in it to drive it everyday. They should have just put the Grand Prix badges on it. I don't expect a retro look to it, just something original. That is afterall why GM hired "design engineers" right?

It's quite unbelievable what goes on by looking at only one picture.

The picture shows the front end. There are some similarities between it and the Grand Prix, but the size of grille, headlights, and actually the styling of headlights is different from current Grand Prix. Either you need glasses, or your attention to detail is very low...

Now, based on these similarities on the front end, the whole car looks like a Grand Prix? Oh yeah, it doesn't just look like a Grand Prix, it's actually a clone of Grand Prix. You know, everything is exactly like the Grand Prix. As a matter of fact, it's just a re-badged Grand Prix...

Get a life. Wait until the actual real car comes out. And if you think that the car looks identical to Grand Prix, look at its side profile, or look at its rear end. A Grand Prix clone? Nope, far from it. As a matter of fact, the rear quarter window is more in the style of BMW 3-series than any other car.

Quit bashing these drawings/designs/pictures and be patient enough to see the actual car. It's true, by 2004 it may not look as new and fresh as it would look now, and I wish they'd bring it in for 2003, but oh well. The car will look nothing like current Grand Prix, even the front will look different in real life, despite its similarities (what they might be) to Grand Prix.

Actually, the car seems to be a "victim" of "corporate image" styling........the double grille, fog lights, etc.....even the Solstice has them.......problem is exactly as stated above.....it will look 'dated' from day one....NOT a good idea......even the GP is getting a face-lift...

I thought DutchInjun's front fascia/hood sketch was a very do-able design and GM NEEDS to stop playing it so close to the vest...be a LEADER again and not an also ran....Chrysler has kicked major bootie with daring designs....I'm not talking about tacked on cladding or scoops either.

I'd LOVE to have a car like this, but in reality, I don't need another GTP.....

[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 25, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JasonK94Z:
Brandon, quit pettin' your dog over the new GTO, and stand back and take a long look at it. Reminds you of the Grand Prix doesn't it? Whats so special about a car that looks like any other car Pontiac already has? Sure, performance should be great, but the looks don't get some of us very excited. I know I couldn't look at it and be excited about hopping in it to drive it everyday. They should have just put the Grand Prix badges on it. I don't expect a retro look to it, just something original. That is afterall why GM hired "design engineers" right?</font>

http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif


The car is a Monaro with a Pontiac frontend...exactly what Lutz said would be..dont act so shocked..

------------------
Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4 (http://www.gminsidenews.com/me2.htm)
White with red leather
1979 Firebird Formula SOLD!!! 8/2001
Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muckz:
Either you need glasses, or your attention to detail is very low...
</font>

If you have to look so closely at details to tell it's not a Grand Prix... then it looks too much like a Grand Prix.

And, yes, from the side that I can see from the picture, I think the side shot looks like a Grand Prix too.

I am not so stupid to think I can tell what the whole car looks like from one shot, but I certainly can tell, as well as A LOT of other people can, that it looks A LOT like a 97-current Grand Prix.

Let's put it this way... If you never heard rumors of a GTO comback and you saw that picture... what would you say it was? I think most people would say a slightly freshened Grand Prix GTP...



[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 25, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JasonK94Z:
Brandon, quit pettin' your dog over the new GTO, and stand back and take a long look at it. Reminds you of the Grand Prix doesn't it? Whats so special about a car that looks like any other car Pontiac already has? Sure, performance should be great, but the looks don't get some of us very excited. I know I couldn't look at it and be excited about hopping in it to drive it everyday. They should have just put the Grand Prix badges on it. I don't expect a retro look to it, just something original. That is afterall why GM hired "design engineers" right?</font>

Petting the dog over it? Never heard that one before.

Brandon brings out a point I've also tried to point out. Yes, it looks like a 2 door Grand Prix, and it probally figured into the demise of the GP 2 door (instead of spending the money on a 2 door, inport a faster & superior version from overseas).

But GTO has always looked like any other Pontiac, that's the whole point. Pontiac is getting away from the glue-on body parts, & going to a smooth low profile look.

Lutz said this is the way Pontiac is going in design, so there is more of this design to come.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Petting the dog over it? Never heard that one before.

Brandon brings out a point I've also tried to point out. Yes, it looks like a 2 door Grand Prix, and it probally figured into the demise of the GP 2 door (instead of spending the money on a 2 door, inport a faster & superior version from overseas).

But GTO has always looked like any other Pontiac, that's the whole point. Pontiac is getting away from the glue-on body parts, & going to a smooth low profile look.

Lutz said this is the way Pontiac is going in design, so there is more of this design to come.</font>

Maybe they should have made the Monaro/Commodore into the Grand Prix and called the 2-door high-po version the Grand Prix GTO... http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
Maybe they should have made the Monaro/Commodore into the Grand Prix and called the 2-door high-po version the Grand Prix GTO... http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

</font>

Hey we could have ended up with the supercharged Grand Am SC/t they were toying with calling the GTO.


But honesty trhe cars proportions ar different than the Grand Prix...it is taller and teh rear will be all different. I mean it has to look like a Poncho http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

I think the real judge should be the past GTO owners themselves. I like to think of the GTO as being "their" cars. Many of these people have a very negative reaction to the styling. Knee jerk reaction? Possibly. We haven't seen the whole car in front of us yet. But I still stand by my thought that the GTO, Pontiac's new flagship car, should not completely resemble a "been-there, done-that" design.

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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

So, let me get this straight, what all you whiners are saying is that the Monaro was copying the Grand Prix? http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

I find it interesting how all these people can make all these points on how it looks just like one when they have only put out one picture of it. AND, it isn't even a good picture, it looks more like a drawing to me.

One more point that has been made is that Pontiacs have pretty much all had the same looking grilles since the 50's, and now nobody likes it? I for one do like it.

Nobody said that the GTO is going to stay the way it is forever either. Maybe they will run it like it is now for a few years, then restyle it like they did when it first came out. They changed the look of the grill every year on GTO's for a while.

Also, if this car is a big hit, then they can always make a 6 cyl version for families and call it the LeMans or something. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif
This would make a great car to go head to head with Ford's new RWD car they have in the works, what is that thing? Galaxy or something?

Sorry this is so long, but people SHOULD be happy that GM is turning to the "right" direction with a RWD musclecar in the lineup again.

Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

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-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

</font>

Pretty convincing to me... looks like a Grand Prix!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)
</font>

'Nuff said. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif LOOK at the pictures. And please, I'm not saying the Monaro looks bad. It's very nice. I'm not saying the new GTO looks bad. They look like a couple of cars already in GM's lineup. GP and Cavalier. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

</font>

Thank you! Your pics help prove my point.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

</font>

Man i hope they fix teh nose on the G-force http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

Obviously, there's no debating they look similar. I guess it comes down to whether you want it to closely resemble the other cars in the lineup as was the case in the '60s, or if you want it to be more of a head turner, "look at me" car and deviate from your brand identity. Keep in mind, we have yet to see the rear end (or the car in person) and it may yet have the heritage cues most of the doubters are crying for. If it doesn't, I still think this closely follows the formula for what the GTO is all about, so I still give it a thumbs up while hoping more updates or variations would be around the corner in the following years.

I've already said this in another thread by here goes. GM was never going to make a 'daring' GTO from the Monaro it is based on because it is a sensitive, "what if it fails," "import." They NEED the car to look familiar for it to do well because it is basically coming "outa nowhere" for most people. By the time the GTO will be due for a refresh (if they keep it) the new Camaro might be getting a push out the door. Then is the time to be looking for an original design from both the Camaro and the refreshed GTO. Now is the time to be glad you aren't stuck without any V8 RWD muscle for more than 1 year. At least wait to see the car in person and 'feel' its presence before you start calling it a Grand Prix clone.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by morb|d:
I've already said this in another thread by here goes. GM was never going to make a 'daring' GTO from the Monaro it is based on because it is a sensitive, "what if it fails," "import." They NEED the car to look familiar for it to do well because it is basically coming "outa nowhere" for most people. By the time the GTO will be due for a refresh (if they keep it) the new Camaro might be getting a push out the door. Then is the time to be looking for an original design from both the Camaro and the refreshed GTO. Now is the time to be glad you aren't stuck without any V8 RWD muscle for more than 1 year. At least wait to see the car in person and 'feel' its presence before you start calling it a Grand Prix clone.</font>


I don't know about that... Why would you want your new flagship to look dated out of the box?

I don't believe at all they "NEEDED it to look familiar".

Take Catera/CTS as a case-in-point.

The Catera was a "Familiar" looking car. It flopped big time. The CTS is a bold, stunning new visual concept... and it is huge success story for Cadillac and GM.

I think it looks more like a BMW from the side. The front does have the Grand Prix theme. I wonder how this would look if the fog lights were in the middle like on the Trans AM.

all BMW's look the same, All porsche's look the same, all Audi's look the same, and I don't hear any one ever saying anything about these cars.

Lutz said he wanted Pontiac the be the american BMW so it is no suprise they gave it a cleaner more upscale look.

Plus by giving the base GTO this look, it leaves room for GMPD or SLP to make a bad ass Ram Air version.

I just want to go on record as saying that I don't think the new GTO looks like a GP. It resembles a GP in the fascia, but that's where the similarities end. The rest of the car is all different. And the grilles don't appear to be GP grilles. The GP's are more horizontal and recessed. That gray section on the lower nose is not there. The fog lights are different. I think that the similarities were intentional. All the manufacturers do this. They try to make their models look like a family, so that they're easily recognizable as a particular brand. Look how similar the 71-72 GTOs were to the 70-73 Firebirds. No one got upset then.
And I keep hearing about cues. Take a look at my other thread about trying to figure out which old GTO the new one looks like. There you will read about how the new GTO has twin split grilles above the bumper, like the '70 did. It has the arrowhead between the grilles, like the '70. It has a mask in the composite lights that represent separate twin headlights on each side, like the '70. It has the slot below the bumper, like the '70. And it has lights flanking either side of the slot, like the '70 did. Are these not cues?
I said it before and I'll say it again here. I think the problem is that Pontiac raped the GTO themes for the last 2 generations of the GP. So now when people see those themes on a car, they immediately think GP.
And another thing. When the new GP comes out in 2004, it won't look anything like the current GP. Just look at the show car, the GP G-force. The new GTO doesn't look like that car. That car is butt-ugly.
And even JIm Wangers himself (the father of GTO advertising) said that the new GTO "should have a "kissin'-cousin" look to some of the existing Pontiacs...". It's called brand recognition.
Just be happy that this GTO doesn't have those pointy, angular interpretations of Pontiac's look like the Aztec, Vibe, and that God-awful Pirhanna. That look is horrible.

Yep,sure does.2002 grand prix gtp to be exact.
http://www.woodbridgepontiac.com/new_photos/22098.jpg
http://www.commondriver.com/images/cdpics/carsforweb/e02pogran010601.jpg

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1991 Z/28 350TPI red ext. w/gray int.
1973 Z/28(project car)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
I don't know about that... Why would you want your new flagship to look dated out of the box?

I don't believe at all they "NEEDED it to look familiar".

Take Catera/CTS as a case-in-point.

The Catera was a "Familiar" looking car. It flopped big time. The CTS is a bold, stunning new visual concept... and it is huge success story for Cadillac and GM.</font>
maybe its blandness and overall lack of character, destinction or grunt were causes for its failure, but when the Catera came out, it didn't look familiar to me at all. only the stupid "zigging duck" campaign and the emblem on the grill told me it was a caddy.

blandness and styling taste are up to interpretation, but destinction, character and grunt are all present in full force in the "to be" GTO.

If you don't like it, go buy a Cobra. http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif Now there's a real looker. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
Maybe they should have made the Monaro/Commodore into the Grand Prix and called the 2-door high-po version the Grand Prix GTO... http://web.camaross.com/bb/confused.gif

</font>

Huumm. Grand Prix GTO?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

</font>

If I had the time I'd post a group of pictures of the Tempest/Bonnevile/GTO/& Grand Prix of the mid 60's and demonstrate the exact same point (GTO's design was always whatever Pontiac had at the time).

However I'm starting to get the feeling I'd be spending my time more wisely teaching my microwave to talk. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

I may be missing it but here's my stab.....

What exactly where our expectations when GM announced the GTO was coming back? Did we honestly expect a full redesign of the vehicle going into the hundreds of millions for development and production costs all to import and sell 18k cars a year? I thought it was very clear upon the announcement the car would remain largely unchanged with some Pontiac styling cues added. What could you honestly have done with the car given the limitations and time frame? Would we rather they shook up the design a bit, move the grill up the headlights down and end up with a Aztek front end? Given the budget, time, and the part limitations they had to work within how could you actually modify the front bumper fascia and not disturb the overall styling of the car? How is it how could we really expect anything different? Should GM have said, hold off on importing a freshened Monaro till they could have done an entire build of a homegrown car, that hits production in 2006, 2007 or so? Would we rather be without a RWD coupe at all?

Yes the styling appears conservative. Though we've only seen one artists rendition of what the production car holds. IMHO I think GM has hurt themselves in the past with designs that are just a little too far out there, alienating the mainstream status quo public. Thus eliminating sales from the get go. Though it's a catch 22 when you design something a little conservative the hardcore stylists lash out like they've been abandoned. I think the majority of brash hardcore stylist are few but make a very loud case.

I believe this might be along the same lines as how the public has pushed and pushed the manufactures to produce one of a kind concepts and bring them to production, only to shy away from buying these concepts. Prowler, PTCruiser, Thunderbird.....soon to come SSR. After the initial hoopla from the launch of these vehicles fades away , the manufacturer is stuck with loads of cars, lots of cost it can't recoup, then decides to kill off the line in hopes of more profitable car ventures. Hasn't happened to the Thunderbird yet.... I have a feeling it will... A vast majority of the general public just doesn't spend money on these cars for primary transportation. Thus why I think it would be better to error on the conservative side, than the outlandish side of styling.

If the GTO does well there's more possibilities that can only help our cause for RWD performance.

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Derek M
95 Z28 M6 11.077@132.120
02 Chevy 2500HD D/A CC LB
88 Mustang LX
http://home.attbi.com/~z28sc

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Huumm. Grand Prix GTO?</font>

It has a certain ring to it... eh? http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

Of course, this would be assuming the whole RWD Grand Prix to begin with... but it would have made a lot of sense.

http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

</font>

WTF!?!

You guys are comparing the GTO to a Cavalier now?!? You think they look the same??? I'm gonna shoot myself!!!

*aims gun at head*

Dear god, would you mix up my car in a parking lot with a Sunfire?

*pulls trigger*

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FormulaV8.com (http://www.FormulaV8.com) · 1994 Formula · A4 · 3.23
13.45 @ 102.5 MPH w/ 1.9 60' | 267 rwhp | 307 tq/lbs | 3535 lbs
"I know for a fact he is NOT an Easter bunny"

Yeah I don't think it looks like that car either, but it looks like all the others!! The Grand GTO. I just can't get over how much it looks like them. And it stinks too, theres no need for another front like that. I'm telling you, I bet the Charger has cues and looks something like they did. They'll use sense. This is something that seems to keep eluding GM when designing cars.

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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

You guys are really funny about how much you have to say about a car you've never seen in real life.... it sort of makes me think that subconciously you guys envision it as a FWR car like the GP.

I just want lutz to release it with a big set of BALLS.... and then see what happens-
" Not me I never critisized it... I was all for it..." yeah right...

The car is generating so much debate and anticipation.... nearly 2 years before its release...its unbelievable...

Everyone has an opinion on its looks... but everyone is unanimous about its success...

We all want the car to do good and agree it will be a success, but why not make it better?? There are gonna be many, probably most, that will buy the car because it says GTO on it over its looks. Thats not neccessarily a good thing. I would rather have an exciting looking car that catches attention and sales because of those things and not just because of its name. (and performance too, which its obviously gonna have no matter how it looks) It should represent the car its named after in every possible way, even if its just a little, it doesn't have to be completely designed after the previous cars. But there should be some obvious GTO in it, something you could say looks like a GTO and not all those other cars.



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

I tell you what... Ive got the 4 door version of this vehicle with LS1 350HP 6 speed , and I look forward and get excited every opertunity i get to take this thing for a drive... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

I also get to take it on trips and outings because its a cofortable cruizer and has room for extra passengers ,

i have put headers 4 into 1 &gt; dual 2.5" outlets, and i have re-proged the PCM tune, thermostat mod, cold air intake, 3.90 gears ,,, and the car realed off a low 13 sec pass... if and when i change the cam i expect nothing but 12s..

Bloody restricted Holden Factory crud is why the GTO mag tests showed poor 1/4 mile performance...

Once you get over the looks ... a big ass smile you cross your face... WOT

You can have speed and performance, but if you don't have the looks its not complete. Too plain looking for the performance its gonna have and the designation. I'm an enthusiast though. I can kind see others might not agree, but whatever.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by stevil:
WTF!?!

You guys are comparing the GTO to a Cavalier now?!? You think they look the same??? I'm gonna shoot myself!!!

Dear god, would you mix up my car in a parking lot with a Sunfire?
</font>

Hey, don't get defensive 'cuz your car looks like a Sunfire! http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif No, I simply put together a series of photos according to what everyone was making comments on, then threw in the front of the G-Force concept for kicks. I've already made the same post on 5 different topics defending this car. I'll leave it to the naysayers to take their foot out of their mouth when they see it on the show circuit next year and like it. :P

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=92902165&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1990&end_year=1990&address=45014&search_type=&make=PONT&model=SUNBIR&min_price=&distance=25&advcd_on=n&advanced=n&color=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=none)
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Derek M:
Did we honestly expect a full redesign of the vehicle going into the hundreds of millions for development and production costs all to import and sell 18k cars a year?</font>

No. I don't think anybody here did. But likewise, I don't recall anybody here writing "PLEASE GM, resurrect the GTO quickly for us, since you are taking our F4's away" either. The timing and situation was GM's choice, not ours.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Derek M:
What could you honestly have done with the car given the limitations and time frame?
</font>
How about... Left it alone. Call it a Pontiac Monaro, concentrate on the US safety/impact issues, and put a window sticker on it. Can you possibly do it for less money or time than that? Would the "old car enthusiasts (GTO owners in particular) have a problem with this car then - NO. Would we all still like it - YES.

And have you read the article posted by
Decromin about the designer's attitude towards this car? It's the old "We'll give 'em what we want them to have" theme. Not only that, but the original designer gloats that he feels the original Monaro design is far better than this GTO design that GM mandated anyways, i.e. GM made his team make the car uglier! WTF!?!? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Derek M:
Should GM have said, hold off on importing a freshened Monaro till they could have done an entire build of a homegrown car, that hits production in 2006, 2007 or so? Would we rather be without a RWD coupe at all?
</font>

No, we should not have said "do a total redesign and wait 'til '06 or '07", NOR HAVE WE. Where are you guys getting that kind of verbage from?[edit] Certainly not from us that just want either a new name or a few cues to link the new car to the old GTO. But notice in your quote - "freshened Monaro", there's the keyword.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Derek M:
IMHO I think GM has hurt themselves in the past with designs that are just a little too far out there, alienating the mainstream status quo public. Thus eliminating sales from the get go. Though it's a catch 22 when you design something a little conservative the hardcore stylists lash out like they've been abandoned. I think the majority of brash hardcore stylist are few but make a very loud case.</font>

OK - here we agree. But let me add to your case. As you said, there will only be @20K copies of this car. That means it is now a limited production run - or specialty car from the start. Priced in the hi-$30's, it is definitely a specialty car. Resurrect a 30-year-dead name like GTO on it - now you have introduced nostalgia. This is exactly the kind of formula that enthusiasts, collectors, and "hardcore stylists" pay the most attention to, and IMHO this is the potential market to target for reintroduction of a name that has been dead for 30 years. So feedback from these classes of buyer should have (and will still be) very critical to the success of this car in the long haul. If collectors and such veer away from it for whatever reason, the resale and desireability of the car will plummet. Kind of like you are eluding to with the PTCruiser.


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 26, 2002).]

What kills me about this topic is that a relative few of us are trying to help GM come out with a "better" package with broader appeal. That's all. But many act like we are the enemy, or are trying to do away with a good thing. It seems like so many are just happy to get anything RWD and V8 from GM right now, they are willing to overlook the wants/desires of certain groups to get it. Alienating groups of buyers, especially loyal ones or enthusiastic ones, just is not wise. GM should embrace these groups and seek thier advise/input into what a car should be. Un-freakin-believable. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

AS AN OUTSIDER - The more I write on this topic, the more I have come to realize why the F4's got into the situation they are in, and why GM is going down the path it is. Look at the attitude of GM's most loyal buyers...(that's you folks in this kind of forum)
OK - yeah, I'll take that.
Um, yeah, that's good enough for me, for now anyways.
I don't really like the looks - they're OK - but man does this thing have an engine!
Well, I'll bet the next model will be lots better.

Sorry if this flames you all, but I'm just being honest.

You do realize the Monaro just came out in Austrailia a year or two ago, right? Its a new design... their first Holden coupe in a long time, at least one with an LS1, RWD, etc. I think the last Monaro they had was in the mid 70's.

Anyways... the car is being imported here asap because we want it. There is no need for a redesign. And its being sold as a Pontiac, so it should at least look like one, so its getting a quick Pontiac look and badges, and thats it.

I'm sure after a few years they'll redesign the car, maybe like those Dutch sketches, and they'll probably build it here too! But for right now, this will be good.

------------------
FormulaV8.com (http://www.FormulaV8.com) · 1994 Formula · A4 · 3.23
13.45 @ 102.5 MPH w/ 1.9 60' | 267 rwhp | 307 tq/lbs | 3535 lbs
"I know for a fact he is NOT an Easter bunny"

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
What kills me about this topic is that a relative few of us are trying to help GM come out with a "better" package with broader appeal. That's all. But many act like we are the enemy, or are trying to do away with a good thing. It seems like so many are just happy to get anything RWD and V8 from GM right now, they are willing to overlook the wants/desires of certain groups to get it. Alienating groups of buyers, especially loyal ones or enthusiastic ones, just is not wise. GM should embrace these groups and seek thier advise/input into what a car should be. Un-freakin-believable. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

AS AN OUTSIDER - The more I write on this topic, the more I have come to realize why the F4's got into the situation they are in, and why GM is going down the path it is. Look at the attitude of GM's most loyal buyers...(that's you folks in this kind of forum)
OK - yeah, I'll take that.
Um, yeah, that's good enough for me, for now anyways.
I don't really like the looks - they're OK - but man does this thing have an engine!
Well, I'll bet the next model will be lots better.

Sorry if this flames you all, but I'm just being honest.</font>

Broader appeal huh?

The more you add crap like scoops and spoilers to a car the less appealing it is. Its like the new CTS, 50% like it, 50% don't. The problem with this is off the bat you loose 50% of the market. By making the new car understated they can attract a larger audience. Don't worry though I thi k we will see plenty of scoops and hood tachs riding around on GTO's after teh aftermarket gets involved.

------------------
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
Broader appeal huh?

The more you add crap like scoops and spoilers to a car the less appealing it is. Its like the new CTS, 50% like it, 50% don't. The problem with this is off the bat you loose 50% of the market. By making the new car understated they can attract a larger audience. Don't worry though I thi k we will see plenty of scoops and hood tachs riding around on GTO's after teh aftermarket gets involved.

</font>

If anything GTO should be more of a daring, breakaway design, because why does it need to appeal to a broad market??? They are only making 20,000 per year!

It's the perfect chance to do something different... not fade into the woodwork, lookswise anyway.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
Ok, to satisfy the critics--compare for yourself.

GTO/Grand Prix/Cavalier (http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg)

</font>

I guess perceptions of each of us differ. Saying that GTO looks like Grand Prix is saying that Cavalier looks like Gran Prix.

Why, both Cavalier and Grand Prix are 2-door. The windshield angle is kind of similar.... I guess Grand Prix is just blown up Cavalier...
http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

I look at shots of both Monaro GTO and Grand Prix and see two completely different cars. If you look at the body panels, at the lines, at the proportions - everything seems (at least to me) different from Grand Prix.

Grand Prix is a blown up bubble - too round. The GTO/Monaro has angular look to it.

What does look similar is the nose/front. In my opinion, that's where the similarities end.


[This message has been edited by muckz (edited June 26, 2002).]

Proud Pony you said everything I was gonna say and you saved me a lot of typing.

I said in another post, I will say it here again. As an artist, I do not show the design I love the most, I show the one I like the most as a tease and to gauge response. I think this may be what GM has done with this computer enhanced Photoshop image. Also, again, this is only a picture, its not an actual car. But, since the GTO is only getting new front fenders and hood to hold down cost and speed production, you are not going to see some radically different car. Nor should we. The GTO has always looked like a LeMans, or Tempist, or (shudder) Ventura. It is going to look alot like a Grand Prix to carry that tradition. If you want more, then you may have to wait until the car is totally redesigned and built here in the states in 2006-07, and even then it may be something coming from SLP that will make everybody happy. If thats possible.

Hey, we are all car nuts here. Lets just wait and see what the actual prototype looks like. In the time being, anybody think that if the GTO does well, Pontiac will start using it in the Nascar Winston Cup and Busch series racing instead of the Grand Prix? http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

------------------
1998 Dark Blue Metallic
Formula
327 hp
K&N air filter
chip mod
Brut stop brakes

here is a small video of the monaro... beeing prepared for the Targa (http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/targa.mpg) rally.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
If anything GTO should be more of a daring, breakaway design, because why does it need to appeal to a broad market??? They are only making 20,000 per year!

It's the perfect chance to do something different... not fade into the woodwork, lookswise anyway.

</font>

Do you really think GM would dump millions of dollars into a 20,000 a year car to make it a breakaway design? A car that we dont even know if its going to be received well? Come on, maybe if it does well and becomes a 75,000 to 90,000 a year, made in the states car, that will be when you will see a substantial redesign of the car, maybe. From what I am hearing, most people I have talked to and have shown the picture of the 2004 GTO to really like the clean design of the car. A number of people thought it was a new BMW (say, isnt that the idea GM is trying for with Pontiac?). When they saw the GTO name on it, most were very happy. One guy I spoke to said, and I quote, "Wow, at last I can get a GTO to drive during the week, and leave my 71 for the weekends and nice weather. What a great modern day interpertation of the Goat." So I think, in my opinion, that GM has started off well with this clean, more conservitive vision, and I am sure we will see more "radical" versions coming in the future. Maybe even an 2006 Orbit Orange GTO Judge with functional Ram Air and modern Rally II or Honeycomb wheels. Would be nice!


------------------
1998 Dark Blue Metallic
Formula
327 hp
K&N air filter
chip mod
Brut stop brakes

[This message has been edited by 98 Blue Formula (edited June 26, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 98 Blue Formula:
Do you really think GM would dump millions of dollars into a 20,000 a year car to make it a breakaway design? A car that we dont even know if its going to be received well? Come on, maybe if it does well and becomes a 75,000 to 90,000 a year, made in the states car, that will be when you will see a substantial redesign of the car, maybe. From what I am hearing, most people I have talked to and have shown the picture of the 2004 GTO to really like the clean design of the car. A number of people thought it was a new BMW (say, isnt that the idea GM is trying for with Pontiac?). When the saw the GTO name on it, most were like very happy. One guy I spoke to said, and I quote, "Wow, at last I can get a GTO to drive during the week, and leave my 71 for the weekends and nice weather. What a great modern day interpertation of the Goat." So I think, in my opinion, that GM has started off well with this clean, more conservitive vision, and I am sure we will see more "radical" versions coming in the future. Maybe even an 2006 Orbit Orange GTO Judge with functional Ram Air and modern Rally II or Honeycomb wheels. Would be nice!


</font>

No, I absolutly do NOT think they should have dumped big money into it... I have said that in other posts already.

What I am saying is that they could have made theat front clip look a hundred million different ways... pretty much all for the same cost. They chose something that is too familiar, too safe, too pre-outdated looking, because of the whole Grand Prix thing.

Yup.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
What kills me about this topic is that a relative few of us are trying to help GM come out with a "better" package with broader appeal. That's all. But many act like we are the enemy, or are trying to do away with a good thing. It seems like so many are just happy to get anything RWD and V8 from GM right now, they are willing to overlook the wants/desires of certain groups to get it. Alienating groups of buyers, especially loyal ones or enthusiastic ones, just is not wise. GM should embrace these groups and seek thier advise/input into what a car should be. Un-freakin-believable. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

AS AN OUTSIDER - The more I write on this topic, the more I have come to realize why the F4's got into the situation they are in, and why GM is going down the path it is. Look at the attitude of GM's most loyal buyers...(that's you folks in this kind of forum)
OK - yeah, I'll take that.
Um, yeah, that's good enough for me, for now anyways.
I don't really like the looks - they're OK - but man does this thing have an engine!
Well, I'll bet the next model will be lots better.

Sorry if this flames you all, but I'm just being honest.</font>

My point exactly. I posted a similar comment in the original GTO pic. post, but it applies here as well. The GM perf. crowd is acting like a bunch of teenagers that are just happy to play hide the salami with anything that moves and has two legs. http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

Where is the integrity and drive for excellence?? Has the current situation driven the group to accept anything remotely performance oriented with a V8 & RWD? If the GTO were not announced, and two more years went by would you guys be excited about an AZTEC with V8 RWD and named the camaro?

What does it take to break down the integrity level of the GM perf. group? Apparently NOT MUCH!

Again, the only thing that a few of us posting the contrary opinions are asking for is NOTHING LESS THAN THE BEST. I will repeat: IF CHRYSLER, and FORD can produce LOW-VOLUME specialty vehicles WHY CAN'T WE!!!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
Broader appeal huh?

The more you add crap like scoops and spoilers to a car the less appealing it is. Its like the new CTS, 50% like it, 50% don't. The problem with this is off the bat you loose 50% of the market. By making the new car understated they can attract a larger audience. Don't worry though I thi k we will see plenty of scoops and hood tachs riding around on GTO's after teh aftermarket gets involved.

</font>

So the thousands of buyers who have snatched up every Bullitt Mustang, Cobra Mustang, Saleens, Roushes, and numerous other limited run performance vehicles with scoops and spoilers, bought them all because they found them LESS APPEALING. http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

Silly me, I've been doing this all wrong for years then. I'll start searching for my "350hp, scoopless, bland, limited-edition, Accord 4-door investment" first thing in the morning. http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

formula79, you are mixing the terms "mass appeal" and "limited run" on the same car. Don't you see a problem with this?
Darth Xed nailed it (again); Since there will only be 20K units, and we all know that they will sell out due to exclusivity alone, why not make them a touch more aggressive in appearance?

Why call it GTO - rekindle "exitement" for Pontiac models.
Pontiac Slogan - "We Build Excitement!"
Why put in a 5.7L V8 - Excitement!
Why have a world-class IRS - Excitement!
What should the body/design say - "understated"... Yeah, works for me.

BTW, can somebody give me directions to a Caddy dealer or a Lincoln dealer? CTSi or LS MOD5.0 - at least they have their own identities.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

All I am saying here is that everybody is jumping down everybody elses throat over the first official drawing, and I think that is wrong. We still dont really know what the car will look like 100%. I agree that GM needs to kick it in the ass when it comes to design, but here lies another problem. Many people on this board say they want something more daring, more foward thinking, more different from the norm. I say thats great. As a designer I love the idea of pushing the design curve. But then most of these same people get pissed and bent over the design of vehicles like the Aztek (not the best looking car, but not that bad) and the Avalanche (which I happen to love, expecially with the lower body panels painted with the whole truck). Chrysler and Ford have done great jobs with the PT Cruiser and the new Thunderbird, but those are designs that so many on this board hate because of the whole "Retro" debate.

This is not a flame, just my observation. But I still am amazed that all this heat is coming from a design sketch. Maybe a lot of people have gotten easy on GM with the designs of the F4s. I dont know.

I should have kept my 78 Trans AM. Things were simple back then http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

------------------
1998 Dark Blue Metallic
Formula
327 hp
K&N air filter
chip mod
Brut stop brakes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 98 Blue Formula:
All I am saying here is that everybody is jumping down everybody elses throat over the first official drawing, and I think that is wrong. We still dont really know what the car will look like 100%. I agree that GM needs to kick it in the ass when it comes to design, but here lies another problem. Many people on this board say they want something more daring, more foward thinking, more different from the norm. I say thats great. As a designer I love the idea of pushing the design curve. But then most of these same people get pissed and bent over the design of vehicles like the Aztek (not the best looking car, but not that bad) and the Avalanche (which I happen to love, expecially with the lower body panels painted with the whole truck). Chrysler and Ford have done great jobs with the PT Cruiser and the new Thunderbird, but those are designs that so many on this board hate because of the whole "Retro" debate.

This is not a flame, just my observation. But I still am amazed that all this heat is coming from a design sketch. Maybe a lot of people have gotten easy on GM with the designs of the F4s. I dont know.

I should have kept my 78 Trans AM. Things were simple back then :)

</font>

I know a guy with a '79! Ill trade for your formula!

I think we should be excited, but not expending energy pointlessly. I think GM needs to hear our comments, early in the design phase before it's too late! Does anyone know how and if it's possible to give feedback to the design group????

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 98 Blue Formula:
.

In the time being, anybody think that if the GTO does well, Pontiac will start using it in the Nascar Winston Cup and Busch series racing instead of the Grand Prix? http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

</font>

No I dont.

A: GM races cars it wants to sell more of. The GTO is so limited build, it wont need racing support to sell it.

B: The Monaro/GTO has too small of a rear deck lid area, which means limited rear downforce available. The car they race will have the longest trunklid available to them.

C: By the time the GTO gets here, NASCAR may have the common body template anway, and it wont matter what the factory version looks like.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Reno Leigh:
No I dont.

A: GM races cars it wants to sell more of. The GTO is so limited build, it wont need racing support to sell it.

B: The Monaro/GTO has too small of a rear deck lid area, which means limited rear downforce available. The car they race will have the longest trunklid available to them.

C: By the time the GTO gets here, NASCAR may have the common body template anway, and it wont matter what the factory version looks like.

</font>

Can't see why anyone get's excited about NASCAR nowadays anyway. Be nice to go back to the days when the cars that ran actually resembled the cars in the showroom.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
... The GM perf. crowd is acting like a bunch of teenagers that are just happy to play hide the salami with anything that moves and has two legs. http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

Where is the integrity and drive for excellence?? Has the current situation driven the group to accept anything remotely performance oriented with a V8 & RWD? If the GTO were not announced, and two more years went by would you guys be excited about an AZTEC with V8 RWD and named the camaro?

What does it take to break down the integrity level of the GM perf. group? Apparently NOT MUCH! [QUOTE]

Let me guess. You are still bent simply because the new GTO doesn't look like a 1965 Pontiac Tempest, and this has nothing to do with the fact that this new GTO actually has truly serious......performance? http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif

Originally posted by GOATCRAZY: [QUOTE] Again, the only thing that a few of us posting the contrary opinions are asking for is NOTHING LESS THAN THE BEST. I will repeat: IF CHRYSLER, and FORD can produce LOW-VOLUME specialty vehicles WHY CAN'T WE!!!

http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/redface.gif

</font>

1. GTO was an option on Pontiac Tempest, not a separate carline. There is a really big difference.

2. Viper, Prowler, though extremely low volume cars, cost alot and need long runs to make a profit.

3. T-Bird's case, it's based on an existing car chassis, but cost $40,000.

4. If you honestly think that simply & solely because this car doesn't look like a 1965 Pontiac Tempest that GM's performance group is in the dumpster, I'd say I am really someone else is running things there. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

GuionM,
Actually, the GTO became it's own carline in '66 or '67. Still based off the Tempest & Lemans but with it's own VIN body style designator. This lasted until '71 I think, when, in '72, the GTO became an option again on the Lemans. And in '74, it was an option on the Ventura.
I'd rather you here it from a friendly source than have it presented to you in a negative fashion from one of the 7 or 8 dissenters.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
GuionM,
Actually, the GTO became it's own carline in '66 or '67. Still based off the Tempest & Lemans but with it's own VIN body style designator. This lasted until '71 I think, when, in '72, the GTO became an option again on the Lemans. And in '74, it was an option on the Ventura.
I'd rather you here it from a friendly source than have it presented to you in a negative fashion from one of the 7 or 8 dissenters.</font>

HuJass, I mean Darth Vader,
There is still some good in you... I can feel it.
Search your feelings father, you will find it to be true.
Switch back to the good side father. You can do it!!!
I will help you...

http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

(We need a little humor in here somewhere!)

I guess I wouldn't care so much but they are also gonna cost way more than F-bodies so blah!!

And they have 302hp not 350hp. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif

------------------
'93 Camaro Z28 Automatic with a ZL1 hood.
No bottle.
No blower.
383 cubic inch serving of horsepower...hold the rice please.
Thats all you need to know.
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Disclaimer: The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily supported or indicative of the Government of Canada or any other Federal Employee.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gripenfelter:
I guess I wouldn't care so much but they are also gonna cost way more than F-bodies so blah!!

And they have 302hp not 350hp. http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif
</font>

It'll cost as much or less than a WS6 or SS. The 302hp is for the Monaro CV8; the official release even said hp would be up in the 350 range.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
If anything GTO should be more of a daring, breakaway design, because why does it need to appeal to a broad market??? They are only making 20,000 per year!

It's the perfect chance to do something different... not fade into the woodwork, lookswise anyway.

</font>

I just don't get it people bitch that Pontiac is to "boy racer" looking and all...yet they make a nice simple design and it isn't daring enough. It is just like Scott said a few weeks ago, whenever a new design comes out everyone will complain, but a year later they love it. I have spent the morning looking at pictures of teh early 60's GTO and I just don't see what is so daring.

Maybe everyone has images of the Judge in thier mind and thinks that that is how all GTO's were styled.

------------------
Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
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[This message has been edited by formula79 (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
I just don't get it people bitch that Pontiac is to "boy racer" looking and all...yet they make a nice simple design and it isn't daring enough. It is just like Scott said a few weeks ago, whenever a new design comes out everyone will complain, but a year later they love it. I have spent the morning looking at pictures of teh early 60's GTO and I just don't see what is so daring.

Maybe everyone has images of the Judge in thier mind and thinks that that is how all GTO's were styled.

</font>


I actually like Pontiac's styling theme of the 90's... I liked the body ribbing, when done right.

I think the current generation Grand Am's ribbing looks great on the GT, but the skinny, tacked on ones look bad on the SE's.

I like the ribbing on the current Bonneville SSEi.

I always thought Pontiac had the overall best lineup of all Americn manufacturers though the 80's and 90's...

Of course, I am but one person. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 28, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:

I actually like Pontiac's styling theme of the 90's... I liked the body ribbing, when done right.

I think the current generation Grand Am's ribbing looks great on the GT, but the skinny, tacked on ones look bad on the SE's.

I like the ribbing on the current Bonneville SSEi.

I always thought Pontiac had the overall best lineup of all Americn manufacturers though the 80's and 90's...

Of course, I am but one person. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 28, 2002).]</font>

I liked it too...but they got alot of bad press about it. I think the new Bonneville is goregeous. The Aztek and sunfire I think got enough bad press to end that run. Plus with Olds gone Pontiac has to become more mainstream....but I dont see why that roll can't be assumed by Chevy.

------------------
Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com (http://www.GMInsidenews.com)
The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
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Visit my homepage (http://www.geocities.com/branden_firebird79)!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
I liked it too...but they got alot of bad press about it. I think the new Bonneville is goregeous. The Aztek and sunfire I think got enough bad press to end that run. Plus with Olds gone Pontiac has to become more mainstream....but I dont see why that roll can't be assumed by Chevy.

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I agree on all counts! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
I think the new Bonneville is goregeous.
</font>

I totally agree with that. The new bonneville never gets any respect. Its days are numbered though http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif I think 2003 is the last year for it. Then if the '04 Grand prix loks anything like the G-Force, it'll be a hit and absorb some of those would-be Bonneville buyers.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:
HuJass, I mean Darth Vader,
There is still some good in you... I can feel it.
Search your feelings father, you will find it to be true.
Switch back to the good side father. You can do it!!!
I will help you...

http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/tongue.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

(We need a little humor in here somewhere!)

</font>


I am your father's brother's cousin's former roomate! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif

Actually, I would love to put a '69 GTO in my garage. Just can't afford one. It's too bad banks won't give you a loan for an old car. You either have to have the cash or get a home equity loan, and I just don't have enough equity in my house right now. And I don't want to buy one to restore. Too much work and too much money. I had a '73 GP for years. Loved that car. Put a TON of money into it fixing it up over the years only to find out that it was impossible to do the body because replacement panels were not available for that car. Ended up selling it for a whole lot less than I had in it. Too bad. So I know what it takes to restore a car. Just not my cup of tea.If you restore a car, more than likely you'll never get out of it what you put into it.

But I have always loved Pontiacs. Especially GPs. My favorite Pontiac. My cousin had a few GTOs over the years and that's what tipped me to Pontiacs since I was a small kid. He would pick me up and I would watch him work on his cars and read all his GTO books (not many back then) or cruise with him. Stuff like that really strikes an impression into a kid.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:

I would love to put a '69 GTO in my garage. Just can't afford one. It's too bad banks won't give you a loan for an old car. You either have to have the cash or get a home equity loan, and I just don't have enough equity in my house right now.</font>

There's always www.jjbest.com (http://www.jjbest.com) which is a really great way to finance older cars. I couldn't have gotten the '82 T/A in my signature (below) if it wasn't for them, because the seller wanted all CASH up front. JJBest wrote a check and now I'm making payments to them. seller got his cash. everyone happy.

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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,070 orig. miles (6/20/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
We all want the car to do good and agree it will be a success, but why not make it better?? </font>

My guess is that this is what the corporate thinking is at GM:

Exactly, why would they make GREAT and sell that when people are already going to buy GOOD for the same amount of money? It all comes down to the bottom dollar and not how happy the consumers are. As long as your spending enough money to keep me in my [place exotic car name here], then why would we go out of our way to make you happy? This is a business people.

I know it really sucks, but I know all of you have a corporate office for whatever your job is that you do. You all know that is how it is with your fields, that's how it is in the car manufacturing world too. I can't really think of any successful business that really caters to providing over and above what people will purchase for the same amount.

For the record, from the ONE picture we have seen (and why aren't there more???) the car is another 2 dr grand prix and I'm seriously disappointed. The engine and drive train are there. It looks decent, but it doesn't look like what we were hoping to see.

Another disappointment. It's better than nothing, but I think I would be pretty upset to have a GTO and go out to the parking lot and have someone say "hey, that's a nice grand prix".

Oh well... how much are those new cobras going for again?

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Mike
It's a 5.7 Liter container of Whoop Ass
Caution: Do not mix with rice
99 Z28 M6

Stereo Pics (http://drmilhouse.fbody.com)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DrMilhouse:

For the record, from the ONE picture we have seen (and why aren't there more???) the car is another 2 dr grand prix and I'm seriously disappointed. The engine and drive train are there. It looks decent, but it doesn't look like what we were hoping to see.

Another disappointment. It's better than nothing, but I think I would be pretty upset to have a GTO and go out to the parking lot and have someone say "hey, that's a nice grand prix".

Oh well... how much are those new cobras going for again?

</font>

One picture because it was a design sketch, and not, in fact, a picture at all.

I wouldn't confuse the car with a GP. They have similar grills but the rest of the car isn't similar at all. The Monaro/GTO has nice smooth lines and looks very clean and sexy.

The article posted showing a HSV GTO against an M5 and a Mercedes, the three driving the GTO didn't look out of place. Now put a Mustang in there, and it sticks out.

What no one seems to realize, this car is supposed to appeal to the market of people who were actually alive during the time of the GTO, and that market has matured into wanting a more serious car now.

This car isn't just "good enough," but in fact, great for the market it's aimed at. It's just "good enough" for the F-Body owner, because that's a different class of car buyer and a different class of car. This isn't an F-Body, this is a step towards making Pontiac the BMW competitor Lutz wants it to be. And judging by the comparo of the M5 to the HSV GTO, they might be on their way.

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Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DrMilhouse:
My guess is that this is what the corporate thinking is at GM:

Exactly, why would they make GREAT and sell that when people are already going to buy GOOD for the same amount of money? It all comes down to the bottom dollar and not how happy the consumers are. As long as your spending enough money to keep me in my [place exotic car name here], then why would we go out of our way to make you happy? This is a business people.

I know it really sucks, but I know all of you have a corporate office for whatever your job is that you do. You all know that is how it is with your fields, that's how it is in the car manufacturing world too. I can't really think of any successful business that really caters to providing over and above what people will purchase for the same amount.

For the record, from the ONE picture we have seen (and why aren't there more???) the car is another 2 dr grand prix and I'm seriously disappointed. The engine and drive train are there. It looks decent, but it doesn't look like what we were hoping to see.

Another disappointment. It's better than nothing, but I think I would be pretty upset to have a GTO and go out to the parking lot and have someone say "hey, that's a nice grand prix".

Oh well... how much are those new cobras going for again?

</font>


I agree, good post.



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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. :)

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg

The GTO and GP don't look the same from the side and stuff?? Click on the sig even if you have before and take a closer look.

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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic. :)

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg

GTO looks more like a BMW than a Grand Prix to me

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HuJass:
GuionM,
Actually, the GTO became it's own carline in '66 or '67. Still based off the Tempest & Lemans but with it's own VIN body style designator. This lasted until '71 I think, when, in '72, the GTO became an option again on the Lemans. And in '74, it was an option on the Ventura.
I'd rather you here it from a friendly source than have it presented to you in a negative fashion from one of the 7 or 8 dissenters.</font>

Thanks HuJass, I'm always open to new info. Keeps me honest.