Who's got "image"...Camaro or Mustang

This is something that I've been thinking about for some time now. And up until afew years ago, for me, even asking this question would have been ridiculous.

But I may be seeing things in a different light lately. With the 4th gens' dissappoints (really the whole 4th gen run, other than powertrains, has been dissappointing for me), and Ford getting it's act together with the Mustang.

The question is image...and who's got a better one ...Camaro or Mustang.

To me, neither one.

BMW M-3, Honduh S2000, any Porsche, VetteZ06, to name a few, those cars all have image to me.

Possibly GM could cultivate "image" for Camaro if the F5 struck the perfect balance...

But if you asked the average person on the street about desireable image, I think Mustang would be named more than Camaro.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Reno Leigh:

Possibly GM could cultivate "image" for Camaro if the F5 struck the perfect balance...

.</font>

In a way it may be good for Camaro to be gone for a while. The "hiatus" may be a good way to reset the settings...so to speak...of Camaro's image.

A 5th gen's image must far exceed the 4th gen's.

I think that both have thier good and bad points, but overall honesty I think the mustang has more image..thats probably one of the main reasons why it sold better then the fbody but i still like the looks of the fbods dont get me wrong

------------------
1988 Camaro IROCZ "MIDNIGHT CRUIZERS"
305 ci Tuned Port 700R4
3"Exhaust/Flowmaster 80 series muffler/Dynomax high flow cat/CutOut
hypertech chip/k&n filers, cut MAF screen gutted air box
"Theres no replacement for displacement"
My Iroc web page....
www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html)

The Camaro. I feel the car has more image, an image of a car, a CHEVROLET, direct competitior of F**d thats out there to best the F**d, and it does it. Its the musclecar that can do it all, and is usually always better than the other car using sportscarlike characteristics to make it even better. Speed, handling, braking, aerodynamics, whatever. Its just got a much cooler more important feeling to it. But times are kinda different right now, in the 80's and before F-Bodies were the thing to have. Now it seems to be the M*****g, but you look at the 4th Gens and see why it became this way after 3 successfull Gens that held that image. Even though the entire 4th Gen has been faster than the M*****g people still stay away from them. IMO most look at Chevrolet as the definetion of American performance, not F**d or any others.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 18, 2002).]

I think for a next gen Camaro to succeed people in their 30s, 40s, 50s need to "not be embarrassed" to own and drive them.

That means interiors which are nicer than a Neon, refinement better than a Cavalier and styling that beats Hyundai.

It means great base cars and focused, well thought out performance models like Z/28...(let's hope they can salvage the Z/28s "image").

I hope GM uses this "hiatus" time wisely.

Mustang has a much better image by far than Camaro. With all the special editions Mustang has comming up (even a GT looking version called the "Pony", no I'm not kidding!) it will grow even bigger. Kids out here in California love that car.

When you have people who don't even know that Camaros are still being made, or have people think they drink gas, or people actually thinking Mustangs are faster (all actually happened to me), I think it's safe to say Camaro's image is below Mustang by a great margin.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Mustang has a much better image by far than Camaro. With all the special editions Mustang has comming up (even a GT looking version called the "Pony", no I'm not kidding!) it will grow even bigger. Kids out here in California love that car.

When you have people who don't even know that Camaros are still being made, or have people think they drink gas, or people actually thinking Mustangs are faster (all actually happened to me), I think it's safe to say Camaro's image is below Mustang by a great margin.</font>


Ya know, I thin kthey are getting a little ridiculous with all these one-off Mustangs recently... I mean, they are really losing a sense of continuity in my eyes...

Just my opinion, and special editions are cool and all, but if you do 1 or 2 every year, they just arent so special anymore...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
I think it's safe to say Camaro's image is below Mustang by a great margin.</font>


Unfortunately, I have to agree. Mustang has really gotten it's act in gear now.

And when the DEW Mustangs are released...they'll also have a completely modern platform to work with.

I also think these limited series Mustangs are pretty effective at pumping up Mustangs image. The continuity ..I believe...is not harmed. The Cobra always remains the performance leader, and the GT is alway the entry level performer.

They walked a careful tight line with this imaging.... and I think did it effectively.

Contrast this with the way Chevy tried to destroy the legendary Z/28 image in order to offer a "hood ornament" and trim package.

...oh, and one more thing. I know afew guys who have traded in thier Camaros for Mustangs because they thought Mustangs were simply "cooler".

Personally, I don't know of anyone who has traded in a Mustang to buy a Camaro.

What are your guys observations?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
...oh, and one more thing. I know afew guys who have traded in thier Camaros for Mustangs because they thought Mustangs were simply "cooler".</font>

Dude, you need to bit*h slap your friends! ^_^

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Personally, I don't know of anyone who has traded in a Mustang to buy a Camaro.</font>

1.) Mark Bestick - Traded '95 Mustang for a 97 Camaro RS. Reason?? "My Mustang was a piece of Trash."

2.)Harold Johnson - Owns a Ford dealership her in Temple, you can look it up for yourself. Owns many, many, Mustangs but went and bought an SS after he took one for a test drive.

3.) Amy Dutton - My own sister. She had a Mustang for 5 years. Sold it and took my White 97 V6 after I bought my Z28.

Personally, I have nothing against Mustangs. If Ford would get their di*k outa their a$$es and make something worth buying, maybe you'd see me in one. The "style" of the Mustang, leaves much to be desired. Come on guys, all they are are freakin boxes. They remind me too much of the 80's models. If and when they build a Mustang like they had in the 60's, w/ DECENT engines making DECENT hp than Ford would be back in the niche. GM tried to do it. Come on guys, a Z28 making 305 hp bone stock that can run high 13's straight from the factory!!!! That's not bad! The new Mustang GT STILL doesn't make more hp than the 93-97 LT1 issued F-Bods. Untill the day comes that drivers can switch cars and not notice a difference in performance and can respect each other on equal levels, we will always be bickering like this. Just my .02

P.S. - As for image, they both suck. That's why ricers are everywhere.


------------------
- Matt

Red 1993 Camaro Z28 M6

"The only way to increase a mustang's value is to fill it with gas."

[This message has been edited by TechCam97 (edited June 19, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TechCam97:
[B

If and when they build a Mustang like they had in the 60's, w/ DECENT engines making DECENT hp than Ford would be back in the niche. GM tried to do it. Come on guys, a Z28 making 305 hp bone stock that can run high 13's straight from the factory!!!! That's not bad! The new Mustang GT STILL doesn't make more hp than the 93-97 LT1 issued F-Bods. Untill the day comes that drivers can switch cars and not notice a difference in performance and can respect each other on equal levels, we will always be bickering like this. Just my .02
[/B]</font>

You can add me to the list. I've come inches from buying one (opted for an sn95 5.0 instead) and am currently looking at 99+ SS's or ws6's as soon as i'm done with school and can find a decent full time job.

Hmm, wouldn't you consider 260, 300-320, and 400+ horses decent? and high 13's out of the factory aint new to the sn95 mustangs. The 96-98, 99, and 01 Cobras have been doing that allong with the 99+ Gt's and 99+ lightnings. Just thought i'd point that out.

As far as image goes, i'd have to give that to the mustang. It's still as popular as the day it rolled off the assembly line in 64. C&D, MT, Carpoint, and a host of auto mags and websites have had polls on americas favorite vehicles and the mustang was always on top. Maybe it's due to good marketing on fords behalf.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RiceEating5.0:
The 96-98, 99, and 01 Cobras have been doing that allong with the 99+ GT's</font>

Uh, the new GT's don't run 13's. Every new Mustang ran a 14.5 or slower at the local track. There were a lot of them too, about 15. None could best 14.5 They were good drivers too, don't get me wrong. Besides that, it's kinda funny when not one, not two, but THREE V6 Camaro's (97 M5, 96 A4, and another 96 A4) can beat the GT at the strip. As I said before, it's not that I don't like the Mustang, it's just they haven't impressed me much since 94+ But God almightly, the 5.0's from the 80's were a force to be reckon'd with and no one can doubt that. As for new Cobra's, they are old and played out. Woohoo, 400 hp w/ superchargers....wow.....superchargers.....put the same system on a 98+ Z28/Trans Am or SS/WS.6 and you'd be way past the 400 mark.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As far as image goes, i'd have to give that to the mustang......Maybe it's due to good marketing on fords behalf. </font>

Thank you!!!! Someone finally figured it out!!! GM, ARE YOU LISTENING?!?!?! FORD ACTUALLY MARKETS THEIR CARS!! WOW, NOVEL CONCEPT!!! Anywho RiceEating5.0, I'm w/ you on most of what you said. I dig it.


------------------
- Matt

Red 1993 Camaro Z28 M6

"The only way to increase a mustang's value is to fill it with gas."

Putting my bias aside and speaking objectively, the Mustang has much more "image" than Camaro, especially for the last 10-15 years IMHO.

And all of the items you all have posted about so far are linked into that result. For example, many of you who currently own 5-10 year old F-bods admit here on this board that you didn't buy newer because the new ones "looked just like what you already own", i.e. styling issues. SOME(not all) have expressed discontent with cat-humps, long doors, visibility, La-Z-Boy seats, etc. You just don't hear these kinds of comments from Mustang owners - performance enthusiasts or not. To sum this paragraph, the Mustang has a reputation(image?) of being easier to live with.

I think guionM is dead on the money too. Ford has generated LOTS of publicity and interest in the car through limited runs like the first 93 Cobra, the first Cobra R, the SSP's, the Bullitt, the Mystic Cobra, even the more lame but special anniversary badges and Lazer Red/White Convertibles get their special followers. This gives a buyer an opportunity to be "unique" in their ownership - if that is what he/she wants.
Let's be honest... between all of the limited edition runs, colors, engine options, tranny options(remember the '80's when HO Mustangs had 5-spds a Camaro didn't even offer?), tire/wheel choices, interior grades, GT's, LX's, GLX's, sound system grades, verts, coupes, sedans(I wish were still around), etc.etc.etc., there is truely a "Mustang for every taste".

As for TechCam97's comments on performance... I agree with lots of what you said, dude, because I too am a performance enthusiast. BUT, you have got to acknowledge that not everybody (a relative few in fact) wants to own a rocket sled. Ford has known this from day 1. 90% or more of the buyers just want to look good driving a car that is easy for them to live in, financially and ergonomically. Truthfully, how often do we use 285 hp when driving? Not Often. In fact, Ford wants to make lower-performing cars from the factory and let you build the car to the performance level you desire with Ford racing parts or aftermarket - it absolves them of liability/warranty issues and keeps their costs lower. For the last 10 years or so, I really don't think Ford cared if a stock Z28 was faster than a stock GT (but I did!!), all they saw were great sales, happpy buyers, Mustangs everywhere, and Modded Mustang "Doin' the Do" at racetracks. Beleive me, people really do buy 5.0's because of the incredible aftermarket for them, and they are easy to work/mod with.

I totally respect that any of you might not like the styling of the Mustang. That is your right and priviledge to feel that way, and there is nothing "wrong" about it. But likewise, you should understand that there are others who DO like the styling - to see the sales numbers, a sh1+load of people do like it. The styling was in fact driven by public feedback.(please read on)

I offer this as anecdote for you guys here in GM-land that are already missing the F-body and not intimate with Mustangs... Ford got a regal @$$-reaming from the Mustang enthusiasts back in the late '80's when they were going to sell the model to Mazda for FWD conversion and sharing a platform with the RX7. Petitions galore, rallies at car shows and race events, publications, letters, etc. Ford got the message that we were serious. Management then began to acknowledge us - the buyers - for what we wanted and how we got it. The improvements to the Mustang during '91-'93 came from feedback from the consumers. Groups like the Mustang Club of America and large regional Mustang clubs were all used as "informed focus groups" and their collective feedback was taken seriously. This feedback resulted in the beginning of the retro thing back in '94 when the car got the side scoops, 3-bar taillamps, horse back in the grill, etc. Ever since then, Ford has been listening and I give them mega-Kudos for that. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif The cars being unveiled today are exactly what we asked for 5 to 10 years ago, it has just taken that long to get them here. (Ref. this timeline to your conversations here about how long to get a 5th gen Camaro - MY2006?) We still get inquiries and questionaires from Ford on what we like/don't like about the Mustang and what future we would like to see it take. Ford, SVT, and Team Mustang bring cars like the Mach 1's and '03 Cobras to Fun Ford Weekends and big shows like Mustang's 35th in Charlotte to promote enthusiasm and also to get feedback and interface with the people. Is GM putting efforts like that into their lineup? Are they not only listening to you, but actually seeking your input as to what the Camaro should be? Image?!?!

Best of all, our "new" CEO Bill Ford III is a definite Mustang nut, so engineers and designers for the car are no longer afraid to go ask for $ do something unique with the Mustang - it will likely be funded if it's worthy. We have already been informed that the Mustang is highly praised by management and that there is no end for it in the prdictable future. This kind of commitment from our management... Too Cool. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

To sum it all up, I think the Mustang has a huge advantage in image - especially with the newer generations of drivers, but it is not accidental. It is because the [edit]feedback from the buying populus was heard and given attention. I truely hope GM reads this post, this whole thread, and hears what you guys are all saying, and then the same end results happen for the Camaro as did the Mustang. It would be awesome to see the sibling rivalry go on as it has for over 3 decades. But please remember, you don't have to "like" your competition, but you should respect it. Camaro and Mustang are both awesome legends of the same cloth(musclecars), just different colors, and they really need each other to maintain healthy development. Let's be critical of them, but not bash on them - either one.

Thanks for reading the whole post. Peace. http://web.camaross.com/bb/cool.gif

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 19, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TechCam97:
Uh, the new GT's don't run 13's. Every new Mustang ran a 14.5 or slower at the local track. There were a lot of them too, about 15. None could best 14.5 They were good drivers too, don't get me wrong. Besides that, it's kinda funny when not one, not two, but THREE V6 Camaro's (97 M5, 96 A4, and another 96 A4) can beat the GT at the strip. As I said before, it's not that I don't like the Mustang, it's just they haven't impressed me much since 94+ But God almightly, the 5.0's from the 80's were a force to be reckon'd with and no one can doubt that. As for new Cobra's, they are old and played out. Woohoo, 400 hp w/ superchargers....wow.....superchargers.....put the same system on a 98+ Z28/Trans Am or SS/WS.6 and you'd be way past the 400 mark.
</font>

They do run high 13's given the right "conditions" and "driver". I've seen and heard of guys going 13.7's-13.9's with their stock 99+ Gt's. They're neck and neck with the Lt-1's in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

As for the S/c thing, you do realize that what you just gave me was an excuse? run what ya brung. Hp will always be HP. That same logic would go hand in hand with some stangers saying, "Ford can get 380+hp out of a Dohc 5.4 (Cobra R) and 320 from a Dohc 4.6, so if they were to build a Dohc 5.7L they'd blow the doors off both the Ls-1's and Ls-6's". Or the ricers saying, "we can get 240 horses and 120hp per Lt out of 2.0's, just imagine how much power we'd make with a whole 5.7L". That 03 cobra motor is capable of allot more then 400 some horses. That's 400+ "STOCK" horses. The goal here was to do it reliably. You could say Ford kept the power levels a little conservative. Exhaust and a few cheap upgrades would easily put it over 500 horses.

[This message has been edited by RiceEating5.0 (edited June 19, 2002).]

Meh, whatever. Don't really give a damn. I didn't mean to put anyone's panties in a bunch, just thought I could give an opinion. Who cares anyways? All we do on this board is bench race, let's get our asses to the track and let our cars talk!!

------------------
- Matt

Red 1993 Camaro Z28 M6

"The only way to increase a mustang's value is to fill it with gas."

[This message has been edited by TechCam97 (edited June 19, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:


. Is GM putting efforts like that into their lineup? Are they not only listening to you, but actually seeking your input as to what the Camaro should be? Image?!?!


]</font>

My impression is that, in recent years, GM has been more energetic in attempting to reduce our product expectation...and therefore increase our acceptance of the current Camaro, rather than to take real enthusiast feedback....and convert that into product improvements.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
[B
Personally, I don't know of anyone who has traded in a Mustang to buy a Camaro.

What are your guys observations?[/B]</font>

My sister traded her Mustang in for a Camaro 3800 5 speed because of the runaround she got trying to get reinbursed for her headgaskets & cooling fan (plus she liked my t-tops). In her instance, it was more Ford screwing up customer service than a ripping desire to get a Camaro.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TechCam97:
Personally, I have nothing against Mustangs. If Ford would get their di*k outa their a$$es and make something worth buying, maybe you'd see me in one. The "style" of the Mustang, leaves much to be desired. Come on guys, all they are are freakin boxes. They remind me too much of the 80's models. If and when they build a Mustang like they had in the 60's, w/ DECENT engines making DECENT hp than Ford would be back in the niche. GM tried to do it. Come on guys, a Z28 making 305 hp bone stock that can run high 13's straight from the factory!!!! That's not bad! The new Mustang GT STILL doesn't make more hp than the 93-97 LT1 issued F-Bods. Untill the day comes that drivers can switch cars and not notice a difference in performance and can respect each other on equal levels, we will always be bickering like this. Just my .02

P.S. - As for image, they both suck. That's why ricers are everywhere.

</font>

Disagree with much of what you said. Judging by the Mustang's sales figures, Ford has made a Mustang worth buying...to at least 130,000 people per year, more than any other in this segment (dispite some really idiotic customer service moves). I respect that, because they are making what people want. Mustang is also the best possible hope to revive Camaro....Camaro is dead, remember?

Current Mustangs make 265 horsepower and are as quick as LT1s. Some are in denial over this, but that's life. The Mach1's target is LS1s. Current Mustangs have decent engines making more than decent horsepower.

Let's give credit where credit is due. There is a reason why there is a 2003 Mustang and no 2003 Camaro & no 2003 Firebird, just like there are no 2003 Javelins, Barracudas, & Challengers (all of which at one time were able to embarass the best Camaro). It's not only about speed. It's about what the most people want to buy.

We lost, period. Within 4 years, we should be back, so let Mustang enjoy it while it lasts. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:



Within 4 years, we should be back, so let Mustang enjoy it while it lasts. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

I sure hope that we will be back.

But this time the Camaro team had better focus it's mind and quicken it's step if it hopes to match and hopefully surpass the next Mustang!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Let's give credit where credit is due. There is a reason why there is a 2003 Mustang and no 2003 Camaro & no 2003 Firebird, just like there are no 2003 Javelins, Barracudas, & Challengers (all of which at one time were able to embarass the best Camaro). It's not only about speed. It's about what the most people want to buy.
http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

guionM - Awesome post. Insightful peice of literature.

We Mustang guys have been eating crow for years now. From a '74 that didn't even offer a V8, to that initial battle over Ford selling the model name to Mazda, to the 99 cobra episode, to the 10-year hammering by LS1's/Lt1's... we have been taking one lump after another. At times, it's been a fight for us, at other times it's been just rolling over. But we have hung in there and kept up the effort. This builds character and makes you passionate about what you are fighting for. This kind of struggle has created an "image" for the Mustang as being the long-time underdog that has survived - going from near elimination in the '80's to a current class leader. Not only has it survived but prospered.

My passion towards the Camaro/Firebird did not even exist when the Mustang was going to a Rice-building company. They were just "competition". But a few years back, when I first learned of GM's intent to kill the F-bods - it struck a sensitive nerve with me. It was a feeling of, "holy sh1+, now they are gonna have to go through what we (Mustang guys) just went through." That's when I became a "muscle car entusiast" instead of just a Mustang guy. I wanted to help keep the Camaro going (now, get it back), because it just felt right. I honestly do have tons of respect for the F-bods. Our Mustangs wouldn't be as good as they are without you. So look at this down moment as an opportunity... The more you guys take your lumps and still come up fighting - the more respect (read image) you will garner for you and your cars. To that end, I second what guionM said..."The Mustang is also the best possible hope to revive Camaro", so fight to get your car back, but fight respectfully and with dignity. I'm fighting with you. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 20, 2002).]

Well, I think those of us holding out for a 5th gen are displaying quite abit of character....it would be so easy for us to chuck the whole idea and move on.

But on the subject of image, (and I don't necessarily agree that image=character),...GM really needs to step up and do it's part. It sure helps if the owner/enthusiast base is a classy, intelligent bunch....but GM needs to take meaningful input from us and make meaningful improvements/changes.

In addition to my Camaro...my daily driver is an SVT Contour.
Let me tell you, SVT literally hangs on every syllable of it's enthusiasts words, and converts that info into products that people want to buy!

[This message has been edited by Z284ever (edited June 20, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Disagree with much of what you said. Judging by the Mustang's sales figures, Ford has made a Mustang worth buying...to at least 130,000 people per year, more than any other in this segment (dispite some really idiotic customer service moves). I respect that, because they are making what people want. Mustang is also the best possible hope to revive Camaro....Camaro is dead, remember?

Current Mustangs make 265 horsepower and are as quick as LT1s. Some are in denial over this, but that's life. The Mach1's target is LS1s. Current Mustangs have decent engines making more than decent horsepower.

Let's give credit where credit is due. There is a reason why there is a 2003 Mustang and no 2003 Camaro & no 2003 Firebird, just like there are no 2003 Javelins, Barracudas, & Challengers (all of which at one time were able to embarass the best Camaro). It's not only about speed. It's about what the most people want to buy.

We lost, period. Within 4 years, we should be back, so let Mustang enjoy it while it lasts. http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif</font>

IF all you'r going to do is mock me man, than F**k you. I don't like the newer Mudstains, and you don't seem to like the newer Slowmaro's. I won't change your mind, you sure as hell won't change mine. So then we come to this fork. You can sit and argue (I say you, cuz I'm not going to reply to this post anymore) or you can realize that all that everyone said is their own opinion and while you disagree you don't need to attack the person who says it. No where in my post did I say anything slandering about a Mustang lover. So before you go and rub that **** about Camaro being dead you can just stop and think about who you're f**kin talking to and where they come from. First off, my grandfather owned a Chevrolet dealership in Hampton, Va. He was an avid Camaro lover and sold my mother AND father Camaro's for a long time. When I was a child I would walk around my grandfathers lot looking into all the third gen Camaro's knowing I would one day own one. Now I'm 18 and I own two. 97 V6 conv. and 93 Z28. Bought them both myself, thank you. When the news that the Camaro wouldn't be continued I damn near cried. I LOVE these cars, I'd DIE if something happened to either one of my cars.....and that's what it's all about, right? The love for your car? That's why we're here at the place. I don't care about how much people think a GT can outrun an LT1 Camaro bone stock. I don't care if a Mustang sells more. Don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care. I love my Camaro and will go to bat for her whenever I can.


------------------
- Matt

Red 1993 Camaro Z28 M6

"The only way to increase a mustang's value is to fill it with gas."

[This message has been edited by TechCam97 (edited June 20, 2002).]

I do not like the M*****g or F**d. But, I feel the car is nessesary. There shouldn't be just 1 car in this class. The M*****g is going to be left without a direct competitor now, and if the whole thing was F**d and not GM, I would feel they are idiots for discontinuing the Camaros competition, just like I feel they are morons for letting this entire hiatus thing even take place with a car like the Camaro. Something GM didn't realize that F**d did is that both of these cars are nessesary and that competition is good.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 21, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Z284ever:
Well, I think those of us holding out for a 5th gen are displaying quite abit of character....it would be so easy for us to chuck the whole idea and move on.

But on the subject of image, (and I don't necessarily agree that image=character),...GM really needs to step up and do it's part. It sure helps if the owner/enthusiast base is a classy, intelligent bunch....but GM needs to take meaningful input from us and make meaningful improvements/changes.

In addition to my Camaro...my daily driver is an SVT Contour.
Let me tell you, SVT literally hangs on every syllable of it's enthusiasts words, and converts that info into products that people want to buy!</font>

Z284ever, cool post http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

I appologize for a misleading statement in my last post. In my comment "This builds character and makes you passionate about what you are fighting for.", I was implying that the battle builds character in the guy/girl fighting for what they love, not character for the car. I agree with you... character does not equal image. "The fight" is what changed my attitude towards other brands of cars in the same class. So my point was that a good fight for something you feel strongly about affects you. (or it should anyways - but some people... http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif )[edit]

I definitely agree that lots of you guys here have been very cool about dealing with the loss of your car(s). http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif I've declared in other posts that some of the classy guys posting some really insightful messages here is why I opted to join this board and post on certain issues. (GM-land is not my native land, and I am a little uncomfortable with certain topics - my flamesuit is only Blue Oval Certified! When I can't contribute positively, I just read quietly.)Though we Mustang guys came really close to losing our cars a few years back, we never did, so I can't truely imagine how some of you are feeling about it. But I promise I share in your pain.

My advise here though, is to fight a noble battle to get them back, not a slanderous one. Trash talk and bashing will not get your car(s) back, or hurt the Mustang... it only runs good "contributors" away from this site who don't want to hear it. While the majority of you guys here seem like great folks, there are a few tu*ds that come in only to talk crap. "The few", who do nothing but bash cars, bring all the others' credibility down with them. All we can do is try to get "those few" to mature a bit and see the bigger picture. It's a free country. Everyone is entitled to express their opinion and those opinions are welcomed, but act mature about it.

This thread has some awesome content. This is the kind of stuff GM needs to be seeing and paying attention to.
Thanks to all for reading this.

BTW Z284ever, Cool on the SVT! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif I hope it serves you well. Those are NICE rides that many don't even know exist. So you, more than many here, kinda know what I am refering to by Ford's commitment to the buyers and getting their feedback from enthusiasts. Forums, clubs (like SVTOA), meetings, questionaires, etc. They are VERY serious about it.


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 20, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:



This thread has some awesome content. This is the kind of stuff GM needs to be seeing and paying attention to.

</font>

I hope someone at GM is reading this thread!

I remember several years ago, I shared data from a poll taken by Camaro enthusiasts with someone from GM. He politely...but matter of factly said...."we don't need this..we know what you guys want".

Perhaps a refresher is in order.

We need some1 from Chevrolet reading these especially. If they knew what we wanted wouldn't they have done it/something instead of not??

GM doesnt care about what we want! They are like the old soviet union, they are going to tell us what we want and we'd better like it. http://web.camaross.com/bb/mad.gif Maybe they could get away with not listening to us in the past but things are changing. Other manufacturers have stepped up and are giving us what GM wont. So unless Lutz really changes things internally GM is going to find itself in deep trouble fast.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
We need some1 from Chevrolet reading these especially. If they knew what we wanted wouldn't they have done it/something instead of not??</font>

someone is im sure...his name is red planet http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

------------------
1988 Camaro IROCZ "MIDNIGHT CRUIZERS"
305 ci Tuned Port 700R4
3"Exhaust/Flowmaster 80 series muffler/Dynomax high flow cat/CutOut
hypertech chip/k&n filers, cut MAF screen gutted air box
"Theres no replacement for displacement"
My Iroc web page....
www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/bobfitz82/index.html)

I agree pretty much completely with 91 Z28.

It might be changing though, I hope.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BadIroc:
someone is im sure...his name is red planet http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif
</font>

We all know Red is reading here (along with some other GM paystubs)but remember, Red is only one guy and there are a lot of decision-makers above him. It's gonna take a change in executive management's philosophy to really get results. Preferably from Lutz first, then implementing the "trickle-down" effect. It's almost impossible to push philosophical change "uphill" from engineer/tech guys to the top, especially in big corporations.

Another interesting thought hit me after my last post...

Along the lines of this thread's topic of "image", nobody has said anything about model names. IMHO, model names bring images of certain cars to my mind when I hear them. I am not bashing GM with this statement, but I really feel that GM is trying to get [edit] a "free ride" by selling some non-performing cars today with names of yesteryear's performance models; names that carry an image those cars created years ago. We have had other threads that skirted along these issues like the GTO badge on an import and the dozen or so threads about what a Z28 or SS moniker should/should not go on.

Camaro and Firebird model names DO have a legendary status. Those names, when heard, give a person the image of a performance car with gobs of HP and torque (at least for us enthusiasts anyway http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif). We all do realize that whenever GM decides to unveil a "new performance car", that placing one of those maneplates on the car will sell units - because of image as well as loyalty. To that end, I certainly hope GM does listen to these forums and when they do put those badges back on cars that they are cars we would all deem worthy of the name. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 21, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BadIroc:
someone is im sure...his name is red planet http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif

</font>

Red certainly does his part....especially in the way he engages us in these forums, but GM is a big company and Red can't do it all alone...others with a "voice" at GM need to take interest in a properly executed Camaro.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TechCam97:
IF all you'r going to do is mock me man, than F**k you. I don't like the newer Mudstains, and you don't seem to like the newer Slowmaro's. I won't change your mind, you sure as hell won't change mine. So then we come to this fork. You can sit and argue (I say you, cuz I'm not going to reply to this post anymore) or you can realize that all that everyone said is their own opinion and while you disagree you don't need to attack the person who says it. No where in my post did I say anything slandering about a Mustang lover. So before you go and rub that **** about Camaro being dead you can just stop and think about who you're f**kin talking to and where they come from. First off, my grandfather owned a Chevrolet dealership in Hampton, Va. He was an avid Camaro lover and sold my mother AND father Camaro's for a long time. When I was a child I would walk around my grandfathers lot looking into all the third gen Camaro's knowing I would one day own one. Now I'm 18 and I own two. 97 V6 conv. and 93 Z28. Bought them both myself, thank you. When the news that the Camaro wouldn't be continued I damn near cried. I LOVE these cars, I'd DIE if something happened to either one of my cars.....and that's what it's all about, right? The love for your car? That's why we're here at the place. I don't care about how much people think a GT can outrun an LT1 Camaro bone stock. I don't care if a Mustang sells more. Don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care. I love my Camaro and will go to bat for her whenever I can.

</font>

Do you think you may be going a little overboard?

I own a 97 Z28. My 1st car was my uncle's 1968 Camaro, which was in turn, his first new car. I passed up getting a special service Camaro last winter because it was too much like my 5 year old car. My father owned nothing but Chevys. How you can insinuate I don't like Camaros is laughable.

I am a performance enthusiast, and I realize there are times where the other guy has the better car. Thunderbird SC was one such car (I owned one of them also) when compared to Monte Carlos. The current Mustang is another example of the other guy having something better (according to the public). That's called competition, no one wins forever.

Ford ate our dust for over a decade. For the next few years it's our turn. We're tough enough to take it. Again, Mustang can enjoy it while it lasts.

If it wasn't for Mustang, though, there would be no Camaro. If it wasn't for TransAm in the 70s, Camaro would have certainly died. The 79 Mustang kept the 83 Camaro from being a rebodied Chevy Citation. If GM has been stingy about putting money into Camaro in the past 10 years with Mustang around, what do you think would have happened if Mustang had became what turned out to be the Probe?

Sorry if you feel I slandered you by saying the Camaro is dead. But go to your neighborhood Chevrolet dealer & try to order a new Camaro. You can't. It's dead. Game over.

It is nice that you & your family has a long history of love & affection for Camaro, but say what you will about Mustangs, they are proving to GM beyound any doubt that if done right, these types of cars can sell. Once GM learns that lesson (instead of treating Camaro like an unwanted child) and keeps Camaro competitive, we will have a new Camaro that will compete on the market as well as on the strip.

Sometimes instead of going to bat FOR something, you may have to use the bat ON something to do the most good.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
I am a performance enthusiast, and I realize there are times where the other guy has the better car... </font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Sometimes instead of going to bat FOR something, you may have to use the bat ON something to do the most good.[edit] </font>

guionM,
These are probably the most insightful words written in this whole thread. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif With emph. - PERFORMANCE.

Given the nature of this forum, I would expect the vast majority of readers (and even higher percentage of posters) to be performance enthusiasts - GEEZ, just look at the sigs... performance?!?! http://web.camaross.com/bb/eek.gif

But don't forget stories like King Midas' touch... you would be very lonely in your dream world of "my car is always THE FASTEST." With no challengers, no need for a higher goal, and moreover, no feeling of accomplishment when you actually "improved" your ride or acheived that new goal.

Personally, I wish everybody would stop "bashing" performance cars, period. (Well, OK - you can bash ricers some if you want! http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif)
Love/Respect 'em all for what they are. Then concentrate your energy on getting GM back to producing what you want. At least IMHO, that's where your effort should be directed.

PS - TechCam97, I appreciate your passion for the Camaro. http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif I'm glad to see it in fact. But, look at all the energy you just spent posting with guionM about your history with Camaros and how you will "fight for them". That effort could have been much more "productive" if properly written and conveyed to GM instead. Ever try sending a letter to a GM consumer group with "receiver certification" attached and "Resonse Requested" on it? It's cool, try it. I'm not flaming you at all. I think you will find that with time and experience, you will lean towards "car enthusiasm" instead of "model(i.e. Camaro) enthusiasm" too, like guionM, myself, and many others here. Your passion for performance is obvious. But you see, just because you respect other models certainly does not mean that you can't be loyal to your Camaros!

Peace! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif (or is that "piece" http://web.camaross.com/bb/biggrin.gif... whichever you need worse! Good luck!)

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 24, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProudPony:

But don't forget stories like King Midas' touch... you would be very lonely in your dream world of "my car is always THE FASTEST." With no challengers, no need for a higher goal, and moreover, no feeling of accomplishment when you actually "improved" your ride or acheived that new goal.


]</font>
I'm reminded of the saying..."The sweet is sweeter when you have experienced the bitter".