Did the 4th Gen slowly price itself out of it's segment?

I saw something the other day that a new Z28's MSRP at most dealers is in the $27,000 dollar range. Here is an example of a local dealers inventory...The first price is MSRP, the second is "supposed invoice"..Any Firebird is normally factionally more expensive, but iI didn't research them.


2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 MED RED/NEUTRAL LEATHER $28,195 $26,144 6156350
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 BRIGHT RED/EBONY LEATHER $27,770 $25,802 6146202
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 SEBRING SILVER/EBONY LEAT $27,770 $25,681 6139119
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,770 $25,802 6147700
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,795 $25,703 6142511
2002 CHEVROLET CAMARO 2DR CPE Z28 LT PEWTER/EBONY LEATHER $27,795 $25,850 6156178

Now I remember seeing that in 1993 when the car came out there was a big deal about the price being much lower than the 3rd gen. I saw an article in car and driver that stated a 1992 Trans AM GTA cost almost $25,000 new, yet you could get a 93 Trans Am for $21,000. Initially 4th gen sales were very strong, however I am willing to bet that if you did a chart you would see a price correlation. The 3rd Gen may have been expensive in top form(IE GTA), but you had many much lower priced V8 options that would allow you to not have to stoop to a V6. Knowing what I do now and listening to all the crap I get I would not have gotten a V6 given the chance again. I think that the price of anew Z28 turns off alot of younger buyers who really can afford it and the insurence. That combined with most young males not wanting a "underpowed" V6 leads me to think that not having a price and performance middle ground has really hurt the F-body. From talking to friends (i am 21) I can say whole heartedly that my generation wants T/A's and Z28's, but tehy cost way too much. That is why they end up buying imports and Mustangs (which have a price advantage). The WS6 TA is quite simply idolized by all my friends yest no average person under 26 can afford a $35,000 dollar car. Even a $25,000 one is a streach. I dunno, justs ome random thoughts...what do you all think?


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I bet most of theose Z28's were loaded... and if so, there are a few things to consider...

1) T-Tops are a $1000 option, that can't be had anywhere else...

2) More Horsepower is standard.

3) An automatic Transmission is Standard.

4) ABS is standard.

If you build out a Mustang GT and a Camaro Z28 on the websites, and equip them as identically as you can (ie. no T-Tops, no Sport Appearance Package, both with Auto Transmission) they are almost even in price, and you get more with the Z28, IMHO.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
I bet most of theose Z28's were loaded... and if so, there are a few things to consider...

1) T-Tops are a $1000 option, that can't be had anywhere else...

2) More Horsepower is standard.

3) An automatic Transmission is Standard.

4) ABS is standard.

If you build out a Mustang GT and a Camaro Z28 on the websites, and equip them as identically as you can (ie. no T-Tops, no Sport Appearance Package, both with Auto Transmission) they are almost even in price, and you get more with the Z28, IMHO.</font>


Everything costs more here http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif I haven't found a new Z28 under $26,000 yet. Aren't T-tops standard on the Trans Am and Z28 now?? Also it would be really easy to buy a Mustang with no T-tops and sport appearence package (not available), But few Z28 buyers could live with at the evry least not having T-tops.

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Here in Texas they have 35th SS for $28k. Z28s can be had for under 25k too.

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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6 (http://ws6bird.cz28.com/)
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
[B

Now I remember seeing that in 1993 when the car came out there was a big deal about the price being much lower than the 3rd gen. I saw an article in car and driver that stated a 1992 Trans AM GTA cost almost $25,000 new, yet you could get a 93 Trans Am for $21,000.
[/B]</font>

The sticker price on my 1992 Trans Am was $20,277. (I paid invoice, $18,000)

A GTA would have been a couple thousand more maybe?

93s did not cost less than 92s. The price was very close though.

GTAs were the most expensive F-Bodies next to the anniversary edition Turbo V6 Trans Ams which in it's day caused not sticker shock, but cardiac arrest.

Z28s actually rose very little in price during the 90s. I remember base Z28s starting at $18,000 base in 1993, and today they start at $23,000. This is over a 10 year period, so with inflation, you could actually say the price of Z28 has come DOWN over the past 10 years.

Even with dealer markups (don't feel bad, they jack up the price here in San Diego too), realizing the average new car is pushing $30,000, Z28s are still a steal.

Mustangs run the same price as Camaro to within a couple of hundred dollars (Mustang's V6 is cheapest while Z28 is cheaper than GT, both marginally), yet Mustangs are more expensive to insure (insurence is based on vehicle claims, so a carline that appeals to more youth typically has higher claims, which Mustang seems to).

The problem with Camaro is a collapse of the sports coupe market (GM's F-Bodies, as poor as they sell, are still the 2nd best selling cars in that class) exasperated by a design thats been out for 10 years and no advertising, not price.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:

Everything costs more here http://web.camaross.com/bb/frown.gif I haven't found a new Z28 under $26,000 yet. Aren't T-tops standard on the Trans Am and Z28 now?? Also it would be really easy to buy a Mustang with no T-tops and sport appearence package (not available), But few Z28 buyers could live with at the evry least not having T-tops.

</font>

T's are standard on Trans Am, but not on Z28... http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

I agree completely with formula79. The top models prices and pretty much no choices definetly helped in putting it out of the market.




[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 18, 2002).]

Yes they priced themselves right out of the market. It has nothing to do with a $23K MSRP base for the Z28. TRY and find one on a lot for that price. Now, go and try to find a 23-24K Mustang GT and you'll have no problem. Why? Well, dealers make more money on the loaded cars, so they order those - and camaro's have lots of options, like T-Tops, SS, etc that can add thousands of dollars to the sticker. Oh, sure, automatics are standard, but if you want a stick, you don't save any money either.

That, compounded by the fact that the SS has completely and utterly devalued the Z28 to the point that no one even wants or cares about such a plain looking car...

....and you have nothing on the lots except for expensive models and V6's.... and the "Bang for the Buck" crowd going elsewhere.


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If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thill294318MI/welcome2.htm)
2000 Jetta M5

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Even with dealer markups (don't feel bad, they jack up the price here in San Diego too), realizing the average new car is pushing $30,000, Z28s are still a steal.</font>

You wouldn't pay more today for a pair of "Guess" jeans or "Starter" jacket than they cost when they came out in '93, why is the Camaro a steal when it goes up in price despite being outdated? $6k is a lot of money! And it's not like you're getting more for your money compared with 10 years ago--it's the same car! I'd like to see a statistic for repeat buyers of the same model--Camaro vs. Mustang. How often do you hear, "well, I thought about trading up to a new car, but it wasn't any different..."? And when sales start declining, I would think a more aggressive pricing approach would have been considered as a way to earn back some customers. A lot of cars may sell for close to $30k today, but there are an awful lot that are in this segment that are under $25k, and buyers are taking note.

Celica GT-S
Impreza WRX
Tiburon GT
Volkswagen GTI
RSX Type-S
Eclipse GT
Sentra SE-R SpecV
Mustang GT

And sure, a nearly base Z28 can be had for under $25k, but how often do you see these on dealer lots? The majority of cars listed come with more content at $23k than available on a $27k+ Camaro.

So to answer the question posed, yes I do think GM has alienated buyers with price. If you're going to push the same car year after year, you better find some reason for your loyal customers to come back for another helping. With no other performance offering even in the same ballpark (I'll overlook the Cavalier Z24 http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif ), is it any surprise were they find themselves?

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-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE

[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 18, 2002).]

Pretty much all I am saying is I have loads of freinds that want an F-body, expecially the T/A. It is a cult car for my generation! The problem is no one can afford the $36K a WS6 costs. Hell you can't even get a Formula here for under $26K. You find me a Z28 on a dealers lot for the $23,000 MSRP Chevys website says and I will publicly state I am wrong. Personally I wouldn't want that $23K Z28 anyway..F-bodies are baron enough..take the T-tops and other stuff and an Echo would have more features. It wasn't like that in the 3rd Gen when there were like 5 different axle ratio's and a line up of 4,6,8 cylinder engines. You all may not have liked cars like the Berlinette, but they sold...and to younger buyers. What do you have now? A $19-$21K V6 model that has decent performance, but whats the point when you can get a similar performing, more comfortable Mustang for a few thousand less (They sell for between $16K and $18K here). Or you buy a $25K+ V8 model that is as fast as a Corevette, but also has the high insurence that comes with it. That leaves a lot of Gray area between a V6 and a V8 GM could work. If GM wants to sell 100,000 cars like I have been told, I won't survive with a base price over $30K.

BTW-All my friends who want F-bodies but can afford new ones buy them used. They depriciate by half in 2-3 years and there is a crapload of them on the market.

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You have to factor in 10 years of inflation though guys.

But even assuming 1.5% inflation over 10 years a $21,000 car in 1993 comes out to only $24,371 in 2002 dollars.

Its the basics of economics that price effects demand. There's no question in my mind that if the F-bodies were even 10% cheaper they would still be around after this year. Maybe GM priced them as low as they could, but WS6s are going for up to $35K the last couple of years. As much as I love these cars, they aren't worth $35,000.

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1996 Trans Am WS6 (http://www.nashvillespeed.com/projectcar.htm)

35k for a WS6?? maybe a convertible. My sticker with everything but CD changer was 32,100 and i paid 29 and change.

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87 Grand National, 9 sec street car

2002 NBM WS.6 A4

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GN1270:
35k for a WS6?? maybe a convertible. My sticker with everything but CD changer was 32,100 and i paid 29 and change.

</font>


that's still a bit high IMO. Don't underestimate the number of people who are turned off by the sticker price...even if they wouldn't have paid that much in the end.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Chris 96 WS6:

that's still a bit high IMO. Don't underestimate the number of people who are turned off by the sticker price...even if they wouldn't have paid that much in the end.</font>

Thats what they cost in the Washington DC area...no lie

I got my 2002 Z28 for 24,500. It stickered at 28,500, $2000 rebate and $2000 off of MSRP. Plus the dealer tossed in "tires for life." As long as I get my tires rotated at the dealer every 12K miles whenever I hit the treadwear indicators they'll put on a new set of Eagle GSC's! I was actually looking for a car for fewer options, but with the deal I got on mine I got it for a price in my budget.

Ed

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2002 Z28 Black on Black
All options except traction control & ground effects
1982 sport coupe - Original V-6, now 350 crate motor - restoration under way!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
You wouldn't pay more today for a pair of "Guess" jeans or "Starter" jacket than they cost when they came out in '93, why is the Camaro a steal when it goes up in price despite being outdated? $6k is a lot of money! And it's not like you're getting more for your money compared with 10 years ago--it's the same car! I'd like to see a statistic for repeat buyers of the same model--Camaro vs. Mustang. How often do you hear, "well, I thought about trading up to a new car, but it wasn't any different..."? And when sales start declining, I would think a more aggressive pricing approach would have been considered as a way to earn back some customers. A lot of cars may sell for close to $30k today, but there are an awful lot that are in this segment that are under $25k, and buyers are taking note.

Celica GT-S
Impreza WRX
Tiburon GT
Volkswagen GTI
RSX Type-S
Eclipse GT
Sentra SE-R SpecV
Mustang GT

And sure, a nearly base Z28 can be had for under $25k, but how often do you see these on dealer lots? The majority of cars listed come with more content at $23k than available on a $27k+ Camaro.

So to answer the question posed, yes I do think GM has alienated buyers with price. If you're going to push the same car year after year, you better find some reason for your loyal customers to come back for another helping. With no other performance offering even in the same ballpark (I'll overlook the Cavalier Z24 http://web.camaross.com/bb/rolleyes.gif ), is it any surprise were they find themselves?

---------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE

[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 18, 2002).]</font>

You don't include inflation do you? Also, $5,000 on an $18,000 car is a $500 per year average increase. The average paycheck has gone up more than that! This doesn't even include the cost increase of materials that go into making the car. I hate to say it, but if you can't afford the current base Z28, you definately wouldn't have afforded it in 1993, all things being equal for it's time.

Also, every example of car you posted except for Mustang is being O-U-T-S-O-L-D by Camaro, so you just shot down the point you were trying to make. There is a newspaper called Automotive News that has vehicle production numbers. That might help somewhat. Also (again minus Mustang) all your examples were cheap FWD chassised cars. Not exactly

The one point I will agree wholeheartedly is the point about some of us not buying a new one because it's like the one we have. That is exactly the reason why I didn't buy a new one when I had the chance last winter.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
You don't include inflation do you? Also, $5,000 on an $18,000 car is a $500 per year average increase. The average paycheck has gone up more than that! This doesn't even include the cost increase of materials that go into making the car. I hate to say it, but if you can't afford the current base Z28, you definately wouldn't have afforded it in 1993, all things being equal for it's time.

Also, every example of car you posted except for Mustang is being O-U-T-S-O-L-D by Camaro, so you just shot down the point you were trying to make. There is a newspaper called Automotive News that has vehicle production numbers. That might help somewhat. Also (again minus Mustang) all your examples were cheap FWD chassised cars. Not exactly

The one point I will agree wholeheartedly is the point about some of us not buying a new one because it's like the one we have. That is exactly the reason why I didn't buy a new one when I had the chance last winter.</font>

I'm sorry Guion, but you won't win this argument with me http://web.camaross.com/bb/wink.gif A base V6 Camaro started out at $12,999 in 93, where is it at now? The Camaro has increased much more rapidly than the rest of the auto indusrty.Also i don't think there are very many base cars made. Seems like all i come across are loaded with options

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Yup. If they'd lower them to the prices to where the people that really want them can afford, maybe those people would buy them?! http://web.camaross.com/bb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 20, 2002).]

You guys have to realize that a half-decently equiped 2002 Cavalier is stickering around the $15,000's...

You have to expect a base Camaro to come in over that...

The pricing on the Camaro is not that out of whack, except to 2 areas...

1) The V6 model needs to be lowered by about $1000 to compete with the Mustang price better.

2) The SS/WS6 package is way overpriced for what you actually get, IMO...

I think Z28 is pretty much right on the mark as is...




[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 20, 2002).]

They are all overpriced in a way IMO. How they could make the Z28 the mid model is still beyond me, but the "SS" and WS6 are just way too much for what you get like you said. I hope they are all priced right in the 5th Gen and not too much for the people that really want to buy. And if they must keep the SS name, I'd like to see it as a more "luxorious" Camaro and the Z28 the Performance Camaro.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
You guys have to realize that a half-decently equiped 2002 Cavalier is stickering around the $15,000's...

You have to expect a base Camaro to come in over that...

[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 20, 2002).]</font>

How so? A V6 camaro has less interior room, about the same quality and features and isn't much more powerful as a Cavalier.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by formula79:
How so? A V6 camaro has less interior room, about the same quality and features and isn't much more powerful as a Cavalier.</font>

C'Mon... Cavalier sells , what? 10 TIMES more vehicles? That's a huge price reduction right there, because of volume.
Say what you want about Camaro being rather spartan in design, but go drive a Cavalier... they are tin cans. I know. I've ridden in a lot of them, and driven many as well.

Cavalier is an entry level car. Period. Camaro is an entry level sports car...

Plus I'd say 200 hp vs 115 hp IS quite a difference in power. Heck, it's just about DOUBLE.


It's just the natural hierarchy of things.

[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 20, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Darth Xed (edited June 20, 2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IZ28:
And if they must keep the SS name, I'd like to see it as a more "luxorious" Camaro and the Z28 the Performance Camaro.</font>

I'd like to see both the SS and Z/28 in the next Camaro. But if Chevy can't figure out which one should be what.....then the SS must go.