So how is Holden able to get better fuel economy from its Zeta RWD vehicles than GM is able to manage for the same engines in the FWD Lacrosse?

Give NA a decent range of GM RWD cars, I say!

 

FWD isn't inherently 'better' than RWD- it is just a simple way to package a low-powered grocery getter-

Mileage relates to efficiency- weight, gearing, transmission slippage, harder, narrow tires, aerodynamics- even compression ratio- a couple percent here, and a couple percent there begins to add up-

 

Just asking here, but are the fuel economy numbers generated in the same manner (i.e. the same test cycles)? To be honest I'd be surprised if they are the same. Plus, they may not "alter" the raw numbers in the same manner that they are altered here to generate the window sticker numbers.

The numbers generated on the FTP test (and used for CAFE purposes) are not the same as the numbers generated on the window sticker. At least this was the case before the '08 reshuffling of the fuel economy testing (and I would guess it is still true to an extent).

My point is, do we know that the numbers are directly comparable? I'm sure they should be in the ballpark, but...

 

It isn't like they stuck the engine in the car and said, yep, it gets better mileage. Read what Holden has done also with the new DI engines.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...r-glory-83875/

 

I understand your point and I agree with your comments. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

But the point I make is that I don't believe GM's claims that CAFE, EPA standards are enough to force GM to favor FWD product over RWD. Holden has disproved the myth.

 

FWD is inherently more fuel efficient simply because it's a more efficient (i.e. smaller and lighter) package for a given vehicle size.

PS - FWD > RWD on snow by a long, long, LONG way.

 

Yes and there's less drivetrain loss in FWD so theoretically there can be fuel economy benefits. But Holden has proven the benefits can be miniscule and not enough of a concern to GM to ignore the RWD market altogether.

I can understand your comment in regards to snow but not everybody would be concerned about snow when they purchase certain cars.

 

yeah, performance in snow really affects my vehicle purchase here in Texas

I know this has already been said, but typically FWD = reduced torque capacity of the transaxle. I'm sure a FWD transaxle can be built to withstand a BUNCH of torque. Heck, Cadillac once put a 500cid V8 in a FWD car...
Anyway, the reason for the reduced torque capacity means lighter parts which means increased efficiency.

 

Aside from all that CAFE 1-2mpg difference between similar FWD and RWD platforms nonsense, which I too believe to be rather bogus - and I know it 's been pointed out here before, is that the biggest pro with GM staying FWD rather than offering RWD platforms en mass, is that the manufacturing/supply pipeline infrastructure for FWD platforms already exists here and a similar support system for RWD platforms does not - outside of Cadillac. Setting up a supplier system for a new platform is of course expensive. THe FWD setup cost nothing in comparison. As we all know, GM doesn't have the cash and therefore not the willpower to make it happen. Remember Camaro subsystems and assemblies primarily come from Australia where a RWD supply network pre-exists.

All this really sucks too, since I'd love to have the choice to get a new RWD car that isn't necessarily a Camaro or more expensive CTS et all next time around.

 

I live in the snowbelt. Snow wouldn't keep me out of a RWD car. I'm not sure what people thought drivers did before FWD cars came along. We didn't exactly hibernate and wait for spring to drive. No, we got some traction sand for the trunk, snow tires (sometimes) and drove carefully - which you have to do anyway FWD or no, unless you've got a death-wish of some sort.

Heck, winter driving in a RWD car can be a lot of fun, you can easily throw the rearend out for some spirited fishtailing on deserted roads or parking lots.

 

No. I hate driving a front wheel drive vehicle in the snow. The only advantage it has is the extra weight over the front tires allows for easier starting on low-traction surfaces. You can fix this by adding weight in the back of the RWD drive with bags of sand. I'd take my old S10 2WD or my new Colorado 2WD trucks over ANY FWD ever made. Never had any problems getting around in the snow with my S10 for 4 years, either.

 

Um, no.

FWD is very good at getting moving from a standstill in deep snow or really slippery conditions, I'll give you that. In these scenarios it's better than a RWD front engine vehicle simply because of the weight bias over the front wheels. But if you even the playing field by putting the engine over the driven wheels, a rear engined RWD vehicle beats FWD by a long long way.

But aside from that mostly irrelevant example, a normal front engined RWD vehicle still beats FWD in driving dynamics once under way. It's much easier to steer and control skids in a RWD car than FWD. You're more likely to stay out of trouble and avoid mishaps in a RWD car.

In my mind it basically comes down to this: would you rather have a car that's good at getting you going in very poor conditions, or one that will help keep you out of trouble for the other 98% of your journey? To me the choice is clear. If the roads are that bad that a RWD car can't get you out of your driveway, you should probably be staying home anyhow.

(Living in southern and central Ontario all of my life, I grew up driving in snow and have seen more than my share of it. My vehicular history is 4 RWD cars, 2 mid-engine RWD, and 5 FWD ... I'll take RWD in the winter every time.)

 

Troof. And I am not of the opinion that GM should ignore them at all.

I think the G8 is a great car.

That being said, given the fuel economy, packaging and low traction benefits, FWD isn't going anywhere soon for family-style grocery getters and economy cars.

 

Most folks had 2 sets of tires. One set of snow tires with or without studs, and a set of tires for the rest of the year.

 

NOPE.

With FWD, the other advantages are the fact that the car basically WILL NOT oversteer in low-trac slides, and you recover your ability to steer much faster.

With RWD, after a certain point in the oversteer process, you're done and heading for the ditch or the oncoming lane.