Sway-bar-deficiency-syndrome

Somehow through the haze of Chevy-loving, Camaro-inspiried self gratification and the utopian bliss of having my favorite moniker alive in any form once again, to do battle with Mustang and Challenger ludites alike, I seemingly lost focus in my exhaustive study of the car and let something of critical importance escape the crosshairs of my mental-microscope. And now I must remedy this titanic lapse by asking exactly who the F@(# designed the Camaro's pathetic excuse for a front anti-sway stabalization system, and how can we fix it?

I normally wouldn't be too upset at small design flaws, say a trunk lid that had a larger gap on one side vs. the other, or an interior cloth insert that had the equivelent texture of 40 grit sandpaper. Quibbles! Mere hiccups!

But to allow a vehicle representative of the level of performance we have hoped for and have come to expect from the Camaro, to be built with such an enemic, literal weak-link in it's suspension is inexcusable! While paging through the current Hot Rod magazine article on the new Camaro's I came across a picture that I had seen before (in fact on this very forum) of the strut/steering rack/sway bar setup that illustrates just how and where the sway bar connects. This is when I noticed seemingly for the first time that the end of the sway bar does not terminate into a bushing in the lower control arm, as it does in many McPherson strut-equipt cars, but by way of an aprox. 15" long, extremely thin bar connects to a tab located at the base of the spring seat for the strut.

My problem is that no matter how large the aftermarket sway bars get, that link is bound to flex signifigantly to the point that I'm willing to bet it will hinder or negate proper function of the anti-sway bar. In fact the larger the the sway bar, the more this link will probably flex as well, allowing unwanted body roll and suspension movement! This "might" be remedied with the application of thicker link bars, but with the Camaro's substantial weight being distributed by 52% up front it may not make a difference, and even if it does those thin metal mount plates on the struts cylinder housing would most likely fail with the added stresses!

I do feel this problem may be addressable through the development of a re-designed lower control arm/ sway bar package that allows for the end of the sway bar to fit into a bushing on the lower control arm, possibly developed by Detroit Speed Engineering or the like, to more directly affect the body roll of the Camaro and increase it's stability in cornering. This I feel would go a long way in helping eliminate this potential fly in the Camaro's otherwise brilliant redesign. As I was postulating this yet another poorly executed bit of engeneering reared it's head......the strut towers!

Again, since the new Camaro rely's on McPherson struts for front suspension, the towers will require braces across them to help properly stabalize the highest points of the cars suspension architecture. Even with the professed rigidity of the Camaro's chassis, the car weighs nearly 3900lbs in it's heaviest configuration, so wouldn't further stabalizing measures be helpful? Alas it seems as though the designers didn't feel the need for such extravagences and deemed it unnecessary to have more than 1 bolt point for each strut to attach to its respective tower. One bolt, being the threaded shaft of the strut, to attach any type of tower brace to, shouldering the lateral stresses of hard cornering! Also they designed each tower in such a way to require serious engineering to attach any mount points, other than to the 1 strut bolt.

In contrast a substatnial number of strut towers I have come across in my years working under my father in his frame and alignment shop have had at least 3 bolts attaching the top of the strut to the tower, including the 2010 Mustang, allowing more even distribution of the stresses created during hard cornering. (This fact probably also attributes to the Mustang's .95 lateral G numbers as well, since a tower brace comes standard on all GT's, that and it weighs about as much as a Radio Flyer wagon ;)) Now a single-bolt style tower brace would probably work OK, but I'd be concerned with the pontential failure of the strut's treaded shaft and how the Camaro's suspension would react in that situation. Being a mechanic I feel a weld-on work-around solution utilizing multi-bolt gussetted plates on either tower would also fix this issue, but as far as I can see in stock form the Camaro's design signifigantly limits bolt-on solutions for this problem.

Now understand that I LOVE the new Camaro! I adore it! And it's performance numbers aren't anything to sneeze at! But I feel with a tiny bit more thought and engeneering it has the potential to rake far more performance vehicles across the coals than it does now. I'm talking Aston Martin's, Audi's, Jaguar's, Maserati's, and maybe even a few Ferarri's. I'm dead serious!

So....there's my rant!

it will be interesting to see what the aftermarket does with this...

Well they don't go into great detail at this time but Detroit Speed Engineering just posted PICS (http://www.detroitspeed.com/projectpages/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-main.htm) of the exterior of their 2010 project car that will carry their soon to be released suspension upgrades for the Camaro, including "front/rear sway bars, front/rear drop-springs and high perfromance adjustable aluminum end links." I sent them a condensed version of my post addressing my concerns and hope to hear back from them soon.

We are working on sway bars as I type. Pedders already has all the bushings, a coil overs and we do have adjustable front sway bar end links. Will also have lowering coils only very soon.

thanks
mike
dms

This is only the beginning for this z-platform Camaro. In a few years just like with all the other American cars all of the kinks will be worked out and things will be fine, more balanced, and even better. We always see missing links in a car's maiden voyage.

utopian bliss ... moniker ... ludites ... exhaustive study ... crosshairs of my mental-microscope ... remedy this titanic lapse ... Quibbles! ... postulating ...


hey I didn't know Dennis Miller was a member here! :D

Sorry, I didn't know I was going to owe tax on my $4 words! ;)

http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Projects/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-008L.jpg
http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Projects/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-009L.jpg
http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Projects/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-003L.jpg


Sweet baby Jesus! That color and that car just look absolutely menacing! :eek: I've seen a lot of pictures of the 2010 Camaro in all sorts of different iterations of color, wheel combo, ground effects, stripe packages, and so forth and so on, but this combination is the best that I've ever seen. Wow.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Projects/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-008L.jpg
http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Projects/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-009L.jpg
http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Projects/2010-camaro/2010-camaro-003L.jpg


Sweet baby Jesus! That color and that car just look absolutely menacing! :eek: I've seen a lot of pictures of the 2010 Camaro in all sorts of different iterations of color, wheel combo, ground effects, stripe packages, and so forth and so on, but this combination is the best that I've ever seen. Wow.

Great shots. thanks for sharing. Who did the Camaro?

mike
dms

Great shots. thanks for sharing. Who did the Camaro?

mike
dms

I'm not sure. They were on the DetroitSpeed link in post #3.

Is that Cyber Gray Metallic or whatever its called?

Detroit Speed Engineering has released their drop spring and sway bar kit for the 2010 Camaro, including redesigned sway bar link arms. Though I am not entirely satisfied that they didn't engineer a new lower control arm and sway bar they did send me an email response that they have tested this setup and were quite pleased with the noticable handling improvements so I guess we'll have to see. So far a similar kit offered by Pedders on the Hennessey Camaro with 2+ inches of drop and 275 front / 315 rear tires was still unable to improve upon stock SS suspension through the slalom, but that could just be too much HP/TQ and not enough time with the car on Edmunds part.


The DSE kit sells for $1150 and can be ordered by calling them. I'd love to see a comparison between DSE's Camaro, Hennessey's Camaro, and eventually the SMS Saleen Camaro.

I can't understand how there cannot be a significant improvement over OE with the pedders kit? Look at the track numbers on the G8. Pulling 1.01 and UP on three different runs! 10% improvement.
I have to call something fishy on the edmunds test.

I can't understand how there cannot be a significant improvement over OE with the pedders kit? Look at the track numbers on the G8. Pulling 1.01 and UP on three different runs! 10% improvement.
I have to call something fishy on the edmunds test.

I have not seen the article nor could I find it, But the guys at Hennessey said all the magazines were seriously impressed. Now the yellow Camaro we did took a 2.5 second off the lap times just by doing our Xa coil overs, front radius rod bushing inserts, and a rear diff bushings. Pete thinks with a Pedders complete system, based on G8 performances, we can get to the 4 second off the lap time range. That is way more than any $10K engine mod could do. I willo find out about the Edmonds article from the guys.

mike
dms

I have not seen the article nor could I find it, But the guys at Hennessey said all the magazines were seriously impressed. Now the yellow Camaro we did took a 2.5 second off the lap times just by doing our Xa coil overs, front radius rod bushing inserts, and a rear diff bushings. Pete thinks with a Pedders complete system, based on G8 performances, we can get to the 4 second off the lap time range. That is way more than any $10K engine mod could do. I willo find out about the Edmonds article from the guys.

mike
dms


Here's the Edmunds Inside Line (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=149946) review of the Hennessey Camaro.

By the way, Edmunds generally posts less dramatic performance numbers in all of their reviews than most any other automotive journalist group, just FYI.

Here's the Edmunds Inside Line (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=149946) review of the Hennessey Camaro.

By the way, Edmunds generally posts less dramatic performance numbers in all of their reviews than most any other automotive journalist group, just FYI.

I chatted with Dave Golder, GM of Hennessey Motor Sports today. they said the lot was full of loose dirt and the numbers that will appear in a soon to be released magazine (I know which one but was not given permission to mention it) the numbers were seriously different, and the Hennessey Camaro smoked a GT500. Because of the oversized tires and some rub issues, we did have the rear 2 clicks firmer than a normal 14f/12r clicks for street play. Road race settings are in the 21-25 range.

So I really have no answer for Edmonds because their evaluation does not match the others that have been done, and not even close. Maybe the evaluator's ideal ride is a 69 cadillac boat deville. The settings here were moderate aggressive

mike
dms

Hey Mike, are any of the track tests going to be published anywhere? I know the hennessey test article will soon be out in something? But I'm talking about your G8 and yellow camaro 5th gen track testing? I do agree the edmunds test smells like bad journalism to me.
Thanks,
Greg

Hey Mike, are any of the track tests going to be published anywhere? I know the hennessey test article will soon be out in something? But I'm talking about your G8 and yellow camaro 5th gen track testing? I do agree the edmunds test smells like bad journalism to me.
Thanks,
Greg

I am actually not sure who did the actual driving. But the Nickey Organization is a VERY serious Camaro company. I was reading an article and they were mentioned right next to Yanko! So we are proud and honored to be associated with them and will be doing more work with them. I am not sure what magazine will be doing a story on their yellow beast.

We have more Camaro builders online and some real monsters are being built right now. Redline in New York is preparig a Camaro that will be featured in Hi Tech Performance. Hennessey has some animal versions coming out, Fessler Moss has some off the chart Camaros coming. And there are others. So I think this year's SEMA show will all be about Camaro!!

We will make sure everyone is aware of what is happening. Now their will be a monster article coming out in print on the Hennessey Camaro. The results are seriously different than the the Edmonds article.

mike
dms

I don't recommend Edmunds as a reliable source for performance data. Their opinions about cars are generally as interesting as anyone else's, but nobody there can drive for ****.

I don't recommend Edmunds as a reliable source for performance data. Their opinions about cars are generally as interesting as anyone else's, but nobody there can drive for ****.

:) Yeah...seems that way! I love their viewpoints but it's like their testing the cars @ 5000ft. or something! Actually it's 1117ft. because most of their tests as I recall occur in or around Phoenix, Arizona.

"Logansneo wrote: Though I am not entirely satisfied that they didn't engineer a new lower control arm and sway bar"

We're developing an "altered" sway bar package for the 5th Gen. It will have different mounting points that will actually make an adjustable front bar possible. With the front O.E. design you can develop a better/stiffer bar but the adjustments wouldn't do anything.

We are into production on our Race 1 or "Street" bar system now. This set up has made huge improvements in our track testing and it includes a none adjustable front bar and a 3 way adjustable rear bar. It will include everything needed for a complete install including our custom endlinks, Poly Sway Bar bushings and hardware.

http://www.pfadtracing.com/photos/data/503/medium/Zeta-Sway-Bars-Dark-3.jpg

Please feel free to call or email us anytime! Have a great day!

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley

Hey Jordan,
Would love to see some actual testing results posted or where they are available? Have you done comparison testing on the 5thGEN, OE and with your suspension upgrades?

"Logansneo wrote: Though I am not entirely satisfied that they didn't engineer a new lower control arm and sway bar"

We're developing an "altered" sway bar package for the 5th Gen. It will have different mounting points that will actually make an adjustable front bar possible. With the front O.E. design you can develop a better/stiffer bar but the adjustments wouldn't do anything.

We are into production on our Race 1 or "Street" bar system now. This set up has made huge improvements in our track testing and it includes a none adjustable front bar and a 3 way adjustable rear bar. It will include everything needed for a complete install including our custom endlinks, Poly Sway Bar bushings and hardware.

Please feel free to call or email us anytime! Have a great day!

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley


Thanks for the great information! It looks like you guys have some nice products coming out and I hope that they not only sell well but hope they work on the car well.

As z71collector mentioned it would be beneficial for companies such as yours to not only state that the products have been designed to improve performance, but to have actual DETAILED test data with OE vs. installed performance numbers to lay down and back your claims! Building up excitement for something based solely on the way the sway bar looks and how it's design was conceived sounds neat, but without factual data to support those statements many such as I won't be quite as convinced.

Honestly i'd love to see a stage-by-stage build-up comparison by anyone, that magazines such as Hot Rod magazine have become legendary for, showing baseline handling and track data on the SS and LT Camaro's stock, then with each manufacturer's sway bars, then coil-over/drop springs, then wheel tire combo's and so on. This would clearly indicate what combination truly works! Don't know how many part manufacturers would be interested in comparative testing in print, but those that did would have my respect for having the balls to do so!

I'm sure that's an important factor in your marketing plan, peaking out on my 'Gots-Balls' meter! ;)

Thank you for elaborating on my request. YEAH! Now I can get behind a suspension and tire,"shoot out" on the SS at say like a certain up state NY road course. Or maybe Laguna Seca? I would surely spend my hard earned cash more readily with a viable test comparison!

Thank you for elaborating on my request. YEAH! Now I can get behind a suspension and tire,"shoot out" on the SS at say like a certain up state NY road course. Or maybe Laguna Seca? I would surely spend my hard earned cash more readily with a viable test comparison!

Hey, you made a great point and I thank you for allowing me to elaborate!

Frickin' Laguna Seca? HELL YEAH!!!

Hey Jordan,
Would love to see some actual testing results posted or where they are available? Have you done comparison testing on the 5thGEN, OE and with your suspension upgrades?

Pfadt Race Engineering is well known for our Corvette Suspension Systems; we put hundreds of hours of Engineering and Testing into every product before it is released.

We use Miller Motorsports Park for a lot of our testing and our Prototype pieces performed great! We have a Comparison test scheduled for July with Production parts as well as some High Profile Articles but I can't divulge any information at this time.

Thanks for the great information! It looks like you guys have some nice products coming out and I hope that they not only sell well but hope they work on the car well.

As z71collector mentioned it would be beneficial for companies such as yours to not only state that the products have been designed to improve performance, but to have actual DETAILED test data with OE vs. installed performance numbers to lay down and back your claims! Building up excitement for something based solely on the way the sway bar looks and how it's design was conceived sounds neat, but without factual data to support those statements many such as I won't be quite as convinced.

Honestly i'd love to see a stage-by-stage build-up comparison by anyone, that magazines such as Hot Rod magazine have become legendary for, showing baseline handling and track data on the SS and LT Camaro's stock, then with each manufacturer's sway bars, then coil-over/drop springs, then wheel tire combo's and so on. This would clearly indicate what combination truly works! Don't know how many part manufacturers would be interested in comparative testing in print, but those that did would have my respect for having the balls to do so!

I'm sure that's an important factor in your marketing plan, peaking out on my 'Gots-Balls' meter! ;)

As a company our # 1 goal is to produce the best performing product at a reasonable price. Currently we have the best performing Sway Bars on the Market for the Corvette's and it won't be any different with the 5thGen. All of our products are tested on the track and used in competition before they even hit the street.

Corvette Spherical Bearings
http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/images/bearings2.jpg

Corvette Sway Bar Comparison Chart
http://www.pfadtracing.com/photos/data/503/swaygraph_with_SS.jpg

This is some of the useful data we provide for comparison between Sways.

Thank you for elaborating on my request. YEAH! Now I can get behind a suspension and tire,"shoot out" on the SS at say like a certain up state NY road course. Or maybe Laguna Seca? I would surely spend my hard earned cash more readily with a viable test comparison!

These are all great questions and points. If you do some research on Pfadt Racing you'll see how many racers as well as Performance Enthusiast use our products with great success. Last year we won the NASA ST1 National Championship with our New (Proto at the time) Featherlight Coil Overs, Competition "Pfatty" Sway bars/Pillow Blocks, Spherical Control Arm Bearings, Powertrain Mounts, Carbon Fiber Driveshaft, Oil Cooler Kit..... The point I'm making is we test these products until we're satisfied they will perform as expected and certainly better than the factory set up. Last year for example every car on the TTS Podium at NASA National was running our sway bars; HERE (http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/?p=55) is a link to our Blog.

I will post the data as soon as I have it; until then please feel free to post, email or call us anytime! We're performance enthusiast and racers, this is a passion for us first and for most. Have a great day! :metal:

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley

Thank you Jordan. While pfadt's race history is important, I am focused on one thing. What is cooking for the 5th GEN. And comparison test results are what I use specifically to influence my decisions. There are other factors as well, such as customer reviews on product and customer service satisfaction. How a product is backed is important to me as well. I look forward to future publications specific to my car as they become available and hope your product can meet my needs.
Thanks again,
Greg

Somehow through the haze of Chevy-loving, Camaro-inspiried self gratification and the utopian bliss of having my favorite moniker alive in any form once again, to do battle with Mustang and Challenger ludites alike, I seemingly lost focus in my exhaustive study of the car and let something of critical importance escape the crosshairs of my mental-microscope. And now I must remedy this titanic lapse by asking exactly who the F@(# designed the Camaro's pathetic excuse for a front anti-sway stabalization system, and how can we fix it?
Understand that a strut-mounted sta-bar is far more effective than one of equal diameter that drops the endlinks down to the control arm. It is entirely possible for a 30mm strut-mounted bar to have an effect identical to a 33mm or 34mm LCA-mounted bar. In some (typically FWD) arrangements where the endlinks are picked up in the very middle of the LCAs, the LCA equivalent of a 30mm strut-mounted bar could be as big as 42mm. Numbers are for comparison only, but the 10% and 40% range of differences would still apply.

IOW, what's there may not be as "deficient" as it appears at first glance, and while there's probably benefit in going a bit stiffer, it won't take as heavy of a bar to get you there as you're accustomed to seeing in 3rd and 4th gen cars.

There is another factor as well. The endlink geometry varies less when attached to the strut than when it goes to the LCA. Consider how the struts move relative to the ends of the bar (pretty close to vertically in front view) vs bar ends relative to LCAs (LCA arcs in front view), and that LCA endlinks are usually much shorter. This 3-D angularity can reduce the effective stiffness of the bar as the car rolls.

You're right as far as the adequacy of the strut tabs to cope with the loads from significantly stiffer bars is concerned, and that stiffer endlinks might be desirable.

There is also a smallish steering effect with strut-mounted endlinks (axial endlink loads have a small force component that tries to rotate the strut about its shaft). Careful design minimizes this - the S197 (2005-up) Mustang front bar uses the same approach and I haven't noticed anything in some fairly hard driving.

Don't attach much handling significance to strut tower bars for anything short of autocross or road course work with R-comp (or stickier) tires. On any recent chassis they're there more for NVH and cowl shake reasons than suspension function.

Lower tie bars (if not present) are likely to be more useful, since it's the LCAs that take the brunt of the cornering forces - I'd guess the LCA carries maybe three times the load that is taken through the strut mount. The addition of a lower tie bar actually became a running production change on the S197, at least in the GT versions.


Norm

Norm, thanks for all the great info!

There is also a smallish steering effect with strut-mounted endlinks (axial endlink loads have a small force component that tries to rotate the strut about its shaft).

I'm trying to make sense of this. You're saying that as the body tends to roll, this swaybar setup will actually tend to turn the entire strut?

How does turning the strut affect steering? I'm looking at a tiny little suspension diagram on Chevrolet's site:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=840

I'm having trouble seeing how the forces would conspire to rotate the knuckle about the steering axis. Can you explain further?

If the endlink force is not perfectly parallel to the strut's axis, part of that force will act sort of perpendicular to the strut. Since that "perpendicular" force is obviously offset from the strut axis, it will develop a torque about the strut axis that will try to turn it. A bad case would give you noticeable kickback through the steering wheel just from hitting smoothly rolling one-wheel bumps in normal driving (trying to turn the steering wheel rotationally, not just shake it vertically or horizontally).

Previous post edited for clarity.


Norm