How many here have less passion for GM and its products than "before"?

I feel like I'm experiencing a weird phenomenon lately. Since I was a little kid, who could barely see above a fender, let alone reach an accelerator pedal, I've been surrounded by and worshipped GM products. In the '80s, when I was a little kid, I was wowed by F bodies...G bodies (specifically my uncle's TPI '86 MC SS and another uncle's '85 GN)...Fieros...Corvettes (I still remember when I was about 5, and my father explained to me that a Corvette was made by Chevy! My little mind, even then, was aware enough that I could not comprehend how the same company that made my dad's brown '81 Chevette we were in could make such a beautiful car!)...and those big, beautiful RWD Caddies floating around all over downtown.

In the '90s, despite ever-declining market share, it seemed like even more cool things were coming. Turbo and DOHC 3.4 W bodies, 180hp 2.3 liter Grand Ams and Berettas, Z24s buzzing all over town, 4th gen F bodies, C5s :drool: took the breath away of my entire high school, s/c 3800 Bonnevilles, Grand Prixs, Regals, aggressive (but not completely overdone...yet) '92-'98 Grand Am SEs and GTs...hell, even the renaissance of Oldsmobile with the Aurora, Intrigue and Alero caught my eye. And to this day, I still think the '95-'98 Riviera is one of the most beautiful cars Buick ever produced.

Then we come to this decade, and despite even better product in many ways (can anyone say Aura? Solstice? Malibu? Trucks? Cadillac's entire line??), the excitement has completely waned to a trickle. The soul seems to be gone, despite ever-better product. It seems like GM has completely lost the attention and desire of the general public. Need proof??

1) Compare a dimunitive little Astra to ANY subcompact GM has made in 30 years...and how many they made before, yet this car wasn't even winked at.

2) The wide acclaim the '97-'03 Grand Prix received, compared to the complete dis-interest the '04-'08 received, and now the G8.

3) The fact that in the mid-'90s, you couldn't spit without seeing a Z24 around the corner...yet I can't even remember the last Cobalt SS I saw.

4) Pontiac went from "We Build Excitement" to "We Build Rental Cars"

5) My high school parking lot when I graduated in '98 was full of 3rd gens, S10 Blazers, '73-'87 full size pickups, Grand Ams and Berettas. Today its full of Civics, Accords, and Corollas.


I guess the point of this thread is just a realization that so many people have completely forgotten about even considering a GM for a purchase, no matter how well the product is now made, will anyone care? Is the passion for the product there? I even find myself questioning how much I care anymore. Oldsmobile and Pontiac were my 2 favorite divisions when I was growing up...both are obviously dead. I felt (and still feel) Saturn has the best overall line within GM...its dead.

Meanwhile, I can't afford a Cadillac, GM refuses to build a 2 door coupe other than the upcoming CTS Coupe and Camaro (and I still can't deal with the dash of the Camaro), and I have no interest in buying a truck. If I had been of ownership age in 1990, I could have easily seen myself buying a third gen...an H.O. Quad 4 N body (Beretta GTZ, Grand Am LE or SE)...Turbo Grand Prix...a Z24 or Turbo Sunbird. In 2000, I would've given a body part for an SS Camaro, or bought a GTP Coupe, or Alero GLS Coupe, or even an Intrigue. I did buy a Grand Am GT Coupe brand new just 2 years later.

But today, other than a G8, there is nothing. There is no Malibu 2 door...the Cobalt is old, ready to be replaced by the Cruze, and there's no sign of a sport Cruze coupe...the G6 coupe is DOA, and funky looking anyway...there is no Buick I want, no Cadillac I can afford, and no way to replace the 5th gen dashboard.


I wonder, how many others are like me? Those that have lost their desire for GM's products, despite the fact so many are, without question, superior to the offerings of years ago?

An interesting issue, I face. Now that I'm of age to buy my second, new GM product....I don't even want one :(

I think about this a lot, and the only way that I cam arrive to a solution is after separating the facts from the emotions. That solution is that we were different people then with different perspectives on the world. The automotive industry was also different then. The two factors changed and evolved and became what they are, like it or not. I don't.

There really is a lot less, in terms of quantity, to get excited about anymore though. When I was in high school in the 80's, GM gave you Camaro, Firebird, Grand National, Monte Carlo SS, Regal T-Type turbo, Cutlass 442, Fiero, Corvette. Today, you get Camaro, Cobalt SS, and not much else if you want to keep it under 40 grand, G8 I guess. And oh yeah, Solstice and Sky, but those are so rinky dink, they can barely be used as everyday transportation.

What I see as the difference from back then is that all those 80's cars were 2 door, and for the most part V8 or F/I V6 cars, all RWD, and all affordable save for the Corvette. Today, your 1 choice under that critieria is Camaro, and even that just now came out after being gone for 7 years. Most of GM's performance lineup in the 2000's has been compromised in my mind by either being a 4cyl, FWD, 4 door, or being truck based. GTO was nice, but compromised by packaging and styling, and I know Corvette has been around the whole time, but it may not be a realistic option for most folks, either by its limited seating, or price.

Also I think Jason Delta hit on an accurate point in that you ARE getting older and your tastes are changing. A hot Cadillac is not something I ever would have considered in HS. I like them alot now, but not enough to spend 60-70 g's on one.

Been that way for me since 2002.

I have no less passion for GM cars than I ever did. Actually I have more.

When I was young I was not all wound up by all of the GM cars, actually just a few models were anything I would want to own.

I still have personal preferences and thus some GM cars are what I would personally buy. By virtue of what I do for a living, my appreciation for vehicles from GM has grown. IOW, there may be a car or truck I wouldn't buy because of my personal taste from GM, but I can see the value that another person with different priorities would be wise to consider.

I well remember the low quality and low opinion many imports had when I was younger.

People's attitudes are hard to change, but they can be changed. I have seen it.

I see many folks who have had GM off their consideration list be open enough to come to a car show and check out something new, such as the Malibu or Traverse. They leave transfomed in their attitude. The leave and buy.

This is part of why auto shows are vital in presenting product in a low pressure atmosphere.

I'm beginning to have less and less passion for all American cars now that I read GM is going to be importing cars from China and how Chrysler is taking American tax money and closing plants (putting American workers out of work) in the US in favor of foreign ones.

I'm sure GM will be doing the same thing with their plants.

I'm sorry, but I was never excited about Z24s, plasticky Pontiacs, or the big retirement boats that were Cadillacs. And I certainly never worshipped GM. I was a GM guy, but I don't worship companies. Hell, my current company pays me pretty well and I have no loyalty to them either. I could be in here 80 hours a week and sacrifice my physical well being, but the bottom line is the bottom line and they'll sh*tcan me the second they need to.

With the products that GM has been putting out over the last 25 years I had to find the silver lining in them in order to defend it. Eg, the engine in the F-bodies, the MPG of the Cavaliers, the SC in the GP, etc. I was nieve and did defend the company, but I can honestly say that was simply because my dad was a GM guy, so I became one. But now that I can think for myself, I find myself not having to defend the cars so much anymore, and as I mentioned, I don't have any loyalty to GM. GM was a poorly run company whose products were poor competition to the offerings of the overseas ones. The sooner some of you guys can accept that, the sooner the pity party will stop. :)

I have no less passion for GM cars than I ever did. Actually I have more.

When I was young I was not all wound up by all of the GM cars, actually just a few models were anything I would want to own.

I still have personal preferences and thus some GM cars are what I would personally buy. By virtue of what I do for a living, my appreciation for vehicles from GM has grown. IOW, there may be a car or truck I wouldn't buy because of my personal taste from GM, but I can see the value that another person with different priorities would be wise to consider.

I well remember the low quality and low opinion many imports had when I was younger.

People's attitudes are hard to change, but they can be changed. I have seen it.

I see many folks who have had GM off their consideration list be open enough to come to a car show and check out something new, such as the Malibu or Traverse. They leave transfomed in their attitude. The leave and buy.

This is part of why auto shows are vital in presenting product in a low pressure atmosphere.


Ditto.

I remember one import in my high school parking lot ('73-'77) and that was a tiny Honda Civic. And, boy, did that guy get ragged on.

GM hit a low point in the early 2000's that have yet to recover from even though product may have.

2009/10 is the best year ever from a performance stand point

•We have a first ever 600HP car the ZR1
•We have 2 500HP+ cars the Z06 and CTS-V
•400HP+ Corvettes, Camaro, G8 (basically Grand Prix), Escalades, Silverados, Sierras.
•303HP V8 Impala, 304HP base Camaro, 304HP CTS, 362HP G8 GT
• Turbo RWD Solstice and Sky
• 260HP Cobalt SS and HHR SS
• Malibus that can do the 1/4mi. mid 14s'

This the best time ever for performance at GM yet I do feel we lost momentum with the death of the Camaro and Z24.

I've never been a "GM" guy and have never made the leap from supporting a "Pontiac" or a "Cadillac" to supporting "GM".

I like most of the current Cadillac line. I do and always have loved Corvettes and Firebirds. I'm considering a new Camaro but after having owned a couple of vehicles that have both performance and a quality interior I simply refuse to put up with the interiors I've seen in either the current 'Vett or the Camaro even if I have to pay more to get what I want.

I've especially never been a "Chevy" guy except for the Corvette...Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Cadillac were always my car brands of choice (I've owed all three brands at one timeor another). Of course, there used to be more difference between those makes than just body panels and trim.

When it comes down to it, it's never been about "GM" for me; it's been about individual cars.

So when it comes to "passion" for GM I'd have to say no but that's not really a change for me.

Very thought provoking Jason.

Oldsmobile was a hard hit for me. My dad was always an Olds man, and my first car was an Oldsmobile. I still carry a flame for the brand.

Pontiac too, but sadly, I had already written Pontiac off. Those charged with running it had demonstrated a failure to thrive.

You know, when I was a kid, I simply thought EVERY Chevy was the best looking car in it's segment. EVERYTHING! Chevy workvans looked badass to me. Chevy dumptrucks looked good. Vegas looked very sharp. When ADAM-12 went to Chevy police cars - I noticed that too. (I sort of have the same feeling when I see a Malibu today).
And Chevy had so much neat stuff to chose from, and I don't just mean the obvious Camaro and Corvette either. I mean, you could buy a two door Malibu with a V8 and a stick for pretty cheap, (or a Monza or Nova for that matter) or a very cool Cosworth Vega. Later, neat packages like the MC SS, Z24, X-11, and Beretta GTZ were available.

Speaking of Camaro, I'm glad this one is back, but I'm still waiting for "MY" Camaro to come one day. In fact, I'm illogically optimistic about Chevy's future. Maybe a new, restructured GM, with a different chain of command, will bring us the excitement and focus we want. When's that Cosworth Cruze coming? :)

For me it's not just GM. There are very few new vehicles from any manufacturer that excite me right now, and those I'd consider, are priced such that I would have to think long and hard about making the purchase.

Fortunately, there are still enough used vehicles that interest me out there.

I am a little less passionate about cars in general, I guess, but I still love 'em. As for GM, I've become less GM-specifically loyal, but more fiercely Big Three loyal. :)

In my youth, I was a GM-only guy, and to hell with Ford and Chrysler. Now, I am far from that. I mean, I still prefer GM in many ways (small block line > *.*), but I am all about the American auto industry as a whole recovering. :)

You know, when I was a kid, I simply thought EVERY Chevy was the best looking car in it's segment. EVERYTHING! Chevy workvans looked badass to me. Chevy dumptrucks looked good. Vegas looked very sharp.

:lol: Wow.

The further away you get from your high school years, the rosier your memories of those years becomes. When I think honestly about the cars from my high school years, the extent of the rose colored glasses effect becomes clear. Have you ever driven a Fiero? The only decent one was the final year GT when a real suspension was finally slipped under it. Prior to that, the car was complete crap...and the 2.8 V6 was always crap. The 305 equipped 86 Monte Carlo SS looked great, but didn't even break 200 HP. Iron Duke 4 Cyl third gens were everywhere. And these were the cars I choose to remember. Citations, Chevettes, Hyundai Excels and Yugo GVs polluted dealerships and roadways alike. The most interesting cars were 225 HP Mustangs, 240 HP IROCS and GTAs, and 250 HP Corvettes. A 304 HP Camaro would have been a dream. A 304 HP V-6 Camaro would have been unthinkable.

Up until last week, I was convinced that the dash design, and the font on the guages, was enough to make me dislike the 5th Gen. My brother has hated the 5th gen since he saw the 2006 concept. He said no way could it replace the 4th gen in his view.

Last Saturday, the local dealer had an unveiling and had 2 V6 cars on the lot. A red base car, and a silver Leather interior car. The silver car was designated for test drives by all in attendance. I was amazed by how the base red V6 car made the black Z06 and red ZR1 parked next to it completely disappear from view when the cover came off. I love the car, interior and all. I would prefer a real nav system as opposed to that turn by turn subscription deal, but all in all I was amazed at how well it all works. My brother was gushing over it. He said it looks much more modern than the C6. The test drive really sealed the deal. I want one. I will wait for the convertible though. Make mine a yellow 2SS, black stripe, M6, convertible please.

:lol: Wow.


:lol: Oh yeah, I was in the tank for Chevy...

Imagine my reaction when I first saw a split bumper, '70 1/2, Z/28!

I guess I'm stuck in the past. I still have a z26 and 3rdgen camaro in the garage among other even older GM products.

I may have less passion for GM, but I have zero passion for anything ford or chrysler make.

I had so little passion for GM there was a period of a month or two recently when I stopped coming here. :eek: Unthinkable for me not to get my daily camaroz28.com fix up until then. I think the bankruptcy talk and general chaos in the American auto industry really soured me for a while.

As far as product goes, I still feel a passion for what GM has out and what is coming in the future - but that whole "cars from China" thing really feels like a slap in the face. One thing that has changed is that I can feel my respect for Ford increasing exponentially. No government assistance, on (somewhat) solid ground, coming out with more exciting product (including the turbocharged V6 lines!) For the first time really in my life, I feel like a Ford vehicle could really be an option for me the next time I go looking for a new car.

I haven't become less of a Chevy/Pontiac/Caddy fan, but I have noticed my self becoming more of a fan of Ford.

I'd take a Focus over Cobalt, Taurus over Impala, Escape over HHR.

I always have and always will be a GM guy. That being said, I will support all of the US auto manufacturers and will not support any of the foreigners.

I do not care if they have plants here, have employees here, etc. I will never own a car from a Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc manufacturer.

i have always been a GM guy. i have argued with folks so many times i cant even count, about the turnaround being right around the corner. each time this new product was released it seemed it wasnt quite up to snuff, and each time it gets harder to push for GM.

and now it seems that GM truely has import level quality, they are out of cash and in a death spiral.

i will always love GM, but it turns my stomach to think how they ran themselves into the ground.

i actually see myself leaning toward the Ford camp nowadays, though i wish the best for all American companys.

I'd take a Focus over Cobalt, Taurus over Impala, Escape over HHR.

HHR has always taken a lot of crap around here, but a co-worker and I recently had one as a rental - I liked it! Surprisingly roomy, quiet and got outstanding gas mileage. The interior was pieced together well. If I was in the market for a handy compact, I'd consider one - especially at the prices you can probably get them at.

Very thought provoking Jason.

Oldsmobile was a hard hit for me. My dad was always an Olds man, and my first car was an Oldsmobile. I still carry a flame for the brand.

Pontiac too, but sadly, I had already written Pontiac off. Those charged with running it had demonstrated a failure to thrive.....

And Chevy had so much neat stuff to chose from, and I don't just mean the obvious Camaro and Corvette either. I mean, you could buy a two door Malibu with a V8 and a stick for pretty cheap, (or a Monza or Nova for that matter) or a very cool Cosworth Vega. Later, neat packages like the MC SS, Z24, X-11, and Beretta GTZ were available.



You and I think a lot alike :)

1) I've already decided that if my career in the auto industry comes to a screeching halt tomorrow (all Chrysler dealers get their franchise "Yea/Nay" letters tomorrow) and I'm out of a job and need my first DD in over 3 years, I know this seems funny...but I'll likely be buying an Olds. I'll need something cheap and older to drive around in, as I don't want to DD one of the F bodies or my 12 MPG, got-a-loan-on-it truck (or waste putting mileage on it...I'll need that truck for years to come). It'll either be an Alero coupe or an Aurora. The sad thing is, would you believe a loaded '02 3.5 Aurora is only a couple grand more, tops than an Alero? Gotta love GM's Dead Division Resale! And those last Auroras and Aleros are still decent looking cars today.

2) You hit the nail on the head better than I did about how special, tarted up models of basic cars generated a lot of interest, i.e. X11, GTZ etc. We have no sporty Malibu...or even a 2 door Malibu!! I see Altima Coupes all over the place around here!

3) I hadn't written off Pontiac yet...I still had hope :( Pontiac is still my all-time favorite division, and was just thinking today that assuming I keep my job and things are ok next year, I would like to buy a "Final 500" G8 for my wife if GM does with Pontiac what it did with Olds. That'd be my own personal tribute to Pontiac...the one division that said it all for me, for years.

Some of you seem to be saying "Z24s and cladded Pontiacs suck, blah blah." That isn't the point. The point isn't whether those cars were good in TODAY'S terms, but how they were viewed THEN. And how that same excitement is lacking TODAY.

Its painfully obvious, everywhere you look. It shows in GM's sales.

Some of you seem to be saying "Z24s and cladded Pontiacs suck, blah blah." That isn't the point. The point isn't whether those cars were good in TODAY'S terms, but how they were viewed THEN. And how that same excitement is lacking TODAY.

Its painfully obvious, everywhere you look. It shows in GM's sales.

Who cares about "excitement?" Back when they were pushing out these gimmicks, is exactly the same time frame that the Hondas and the Toyotas of the world were getting their reputation for well built, great value cars.

Who cares about "excitement?" Back when they were pushing out these gimmicks, is exactly the same time frame that the Hondas and the Toyotas of the world were getting their reputation for well built, great value cars.

Of these cars you're complaining about, did you ever own any? What would you consider to be gimmicks?

My father's old '91 Grand Am SE was probably, in your mind, the pinnacle of this "gimmick" timeframe. Yet that 180hp, 30+ MPG, .86g skidpad circling "plasticky" Pontiac ran rings around equivalent Preludes, Celicas, whatever...period. I had a ball with that car, and probably should have kept it for auto-xing.

I think you're taking your bias a little too far, and not realizing there were some GREAT cars made during those years.

You and I think a lot alike :)

1) It'll either be an Alero coupe or an Aurora. The sad thing is, would you believe a loaded '02 3.5 Aurora is only a couple grand more, tops than an Alero? Gotta love GM's Dead Division Resale! And those last Auroras and Aleros are still decent looking cars today.


The latest generation Aurora is still a remarkably attractive car. I wouldn't mind driving one. If it came in a stick it's possible I'd own one presently.

Of these cars you're complaining about, did you ever own any? What would you consider to be gimmicks?

My father's old '91 Grand Am SE was probably, in your mind, the pinnacle of this "gimmick" timeframe. Yet that 180hp, 30+ MPG, .86g skidpad circling "plasticky" Pontiac ran rings around equivalent Preludes, Celicas, whatever...period. I had a ball with that car, and probably should have kept it for auto-xing.

I think you're taking your bias a little too far, and not realizing there were some GREAT cars made during those years.

:lol: That's hilarious that I'm being accused on "bias" after seeing some of the posts in these threads about worshipping GM, etc. You skirted the whole issue though. Making what you like to call "excitement" cars didn't do them any favors when it came to the competition. The time frame you're talking about is exactly the same time from that Honda and Toyota made their advances. They may have been "exciting" for the guy who's going to buy a GM product regardless of how it compares to the foreign competition, but for the car buying mass public I think it's obvious that they didn't do much. :shrug:

But now that I can think for myself, I find myself not having to defend the cars so much anymore, and as I mentioned, I don't have any loyalty to GM. GM was a poorly run company whose products were poor competition to the offerings of the overseas ones. The sooner some of you guys can accept that, the sooner the pity party will stop. :)

I work for GM and I don't have a problem with whatever motivates your choices. We need to build what people will buy. What you want is of interest.

What my concern for GM is personal. My loyalty is based in my knowledge and enjoyment of the great things they have done, continue to do, and the great cars I have had and have now which were a direct result of what GM did and does. That going away bothers me big time.

I am sometimes confused when folks that choose to come to a GM model celebration site concern themselves whit much other than that which has an effect on that passion in particular. This is a place which exists because of the Camaro.


I'll admit to reading many GM forums and many competitor forums, but it is part of being good at what I do. I read them to find what is motivating their choices because I want their business.

Someone being amazed to find brand loyalty on a brand model site is amusing to me.

I don't expect people on a Camaro site to be loyal or interested in much other than that. It would be nice if they were, but logic doesn't dictate it.

I like Levi 501 jeans. I couldn't care less what cut or color their Dockers come in.

I haven't become less of a Chevy/Pontiac/Caddy fan, but I have noticed my self becoming more of a fan of Ford.

I'd take a Focus over Cobalt, Taurus over Impala, Escape over HHR.I hear you. I'm pulling really hard for Ford these days (in addition to GM, of course). The current and new Fusion are really nice (as is the Malibu).

I thought it odd that you mention Escape over HHR, as I don't really see those as competitors. The Escape really lines up agains the Equinox more than anything. The HHR is basically a Cobalt-sized wagon, which Ford doesn't offer in the Focus anymore.

Focus over Cobalt for me would be possible (I've not been in the revised Focus, so I don't know how they drive) if talking basic transportation. But since I'd be more interested in the Cobalt SS... the Focus doesn't really have a counter to that at this time.

:lol: That's hilarious that I'm being accused on "bias" after seeing some of the posts in these threads about worshipping GM, etc. You skirted the whole issue though. Making what you like to call "excitement" cars didn't do them any favors when it came to the competition. The time frame you're talking about is exactly the same time from that Honda and Toyota made their advances. They may have been "exciting" for the guy who's going to buy a GM product regardless of how it compares to the foreign competition, but for the car buying mass public I think it's obvious that they didn't do much. :shrug:

I didn't skirt the whole issue. What I'm saying is during those times THEY SOLD A TON OF THESE "EXCITEMENT" CARS. So obviously, uh, those were a good thing, right??? They obviously DID "do much." :rolleyes: That's the bias I'm referring to.

The point is now the core cars themselves are vastly better, but fail to garner the same enthusiasm. We're lacking the real "blood pumping" models, if you will.

Others here seem to get what I'm talking about, so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

I think if you look at the big picture, GM's lineup in 2010/2011 will be more competitive from top-to-bottom than at any other point in recent history. As long as I've been alive, GM has always had a few "stinkers" for sale, and it looks like they are finally getting out of that business.

If you're a "GM Fan", you won't have to make excuses about an older model, or if you squint the dashboard isn't that bad, etc etc etc. It will be a lot easier to recommend to people that they head down the GM dealership and end up with a 'winner'.

:freakout:

:lol: That's hilarious that I'm being accused on "bias" after seeing some of the posts in these threads about worshipping GM, etc. You skirted the whole issue though. Making what you like to call "excitement" cars didn't do them any favors when it came to the competition. The time frame you're talking about is exactly the same time from that Honda and Toyota made their advances. They may have been "exciting" for the guy who's going to buy a GM product regardless of how it compares to the foreign competition, but for the car buying mass public I think it's obvious that they didn't do much. :shrug:

He is calling you bias because even though GM sold a ****load of those cars you have to say that obviously they were bad and no one wanted them. Which is just completely ignoring the facts he is stating. :bang:

He is calling you bias because even though GM sold a ****load of those cars you have to say that obviously they were bad and no one wanted them. Which is just completely ignoring the facts he is stating. :bang:

You've had plenty of cars the last few years that are "exciting" but obviously it doesn't mean much. And the point that I was making, is that even when these cars were out, the imports continued to make advances.

I thought it odd that you mention Escape over HHR, as I don't really see those as competitors. The Escape really lines up agains the Equinox more than anything. The HHR is basically a Cobalt-sized wagon, which Ford doesn't offer in the Focus anymore.


If you look at the dimensions HHR and Escape are about the same size and the Equinox and Ford Edge are about the same. The only reason (I believe) that the HHR isn't compared to the Escape is because it doesn't have AWD and sits lower.

HHR = 176.2"
Escape = 174.7"

Equinox = 188.8"
Edge = 185.7"

I like the Edge better than the current Equinox, but not the 2010 Equinox.

My passion for GM ended in 02, I wonder how many GM fans bought 05+ mustangs like myself.....???

My passion for GM ended in 02, I wonder how many GM fans bought 05+ mustangs like myself.....???

I'm glad you are here, but if you have no passion for GM why join a GM centric site?:rolleyes:

Simple answer...Yes. I'm a dis-enfranchised GM fanboy.

My passion for GM ended in 02, I wonder how many GM fans bought 05+ mustangs like myself.....???

I couldn't bring myself to do that.

I find a lot of excitement in the lineup. I like the G8, Malubu, new trucks, and so forth. Iam not hung up on a ton of 2 doors. As long as it is a well executed vehicle I am happy. Cramming passengers into a 2 door sucks anyway.

I loved Oldsmobile. The rocket engine, the styling and innovation of the brand up to maybe the mid 80's. Then I don't know what happened (saturn?), they lost it. I started to move toward Pontiac. The Grand Prix and Grand Am's were nice. Now, I still only by domestics but, I'm all over the board. We'll see when the dust settles. If GM has less to focus on, maybe the styling and innovation will bring back the loyalty.

Honestly I'm more passionate about GM products today that I have ever been in the past.

From 13-21 I primarily only cared about Camaros.
From 21-30 I only cared about 1967-69 Camaros.
From 30-37 I only cared about 1st & 4th Gen Camaros.
It wasn't until I bought a 2002 Tahoe seven years ago that I actually began thinking of other Chevy products, and perhaps in the past 5 years began to appreciate all GM products. Heck 10 years ago I would've never considered a Chevy Cruze, and now I'm looking forward to them coming out.

I guess with age, our minds broaden and we begin accepting things we would never have considered at an early age. I suppose a similar correlation could be make with alcohol. At 21 I would have never been into fine wines like I am at 43. :D

Other than a truck (which I have to have), there is nothing left for me at GM.

I like Camaro, but it just isn't what I'm looking for. Everything else has either been killed or is about to be.

Saw a new Camaro in the showroom for the first time recently....great interior....ho-hum for the exterior; I just don't dig the taillights. Now that they've killed Pontiac, GM products are nowhere near the top of my shopping list as far as performance cars are concerned.:mad::(

I'm 26 and there's not been a time in GM history where they've had a larger number of performance cars that are actually well thought out. So in that regard I'm more passionate about GM products now. Too bad we don't really know what the future holds.

I will always be a fan of the Corvette. The Camaro will have to change (a lot) before they win me back on that car. I will NEVER forgive them for not bringing back the Firebird. On top of that, they are killing off the Solstice coupe (and Pontiac as a whole) which is absolutely heartbreaking to me.

So after the 'Vette, there is really nothing left for me at GM to get excited about :(

The latest generation Aurora is still a remarkably attractive car. I wouldn't mind driving one. If it came in a stick it's possible I'd own one presently.

I love mine to death, other than the fact I can't keep it from shaking at 70 and that it leaks oil like it's going out of style. Damn northstar.

My passion for Ford is building by the day, I loved the 80's Tbirds as a kid growing up. But the IROC-Z made my loyalties go to GM. Fords lineup is making me lean the other way for sure.

GM does not give one sh*t about its customer base. It runs with trends. When Ford was to axe the Mustang....people rose up and it stayed. When GM was to axe the Camaro.....people rose up to watch their car disappear.

That is just one example but they are to corporate with no inner value. It is all about the dollar and to little about public image. In all honesty I really do hope GM is phased out completely as long as they can do it while not drastically impacting the other manufacturers.

Good question!

Personally, the passion will continue for as long as GM keep the 'smallblock' alive with new developments. Without GM I don't have the same passion for cars and I don't have my hobby (i.e. to me, cars would just become an A to B mode of transport, nothing more).

Having said that, if GM becomes a company that just offer fuel efficient, mundane, FWDs then there is no point in supporting a company that is no longer true to its roots. Toyota then takes GM's place (not Ford).

Having said that, if GM becomes a company that just offer fuel efficient, mundane, FWDs then there is no point in supporting a company that is no longer true to its roots. Toyota then takes GM's place (not Ford).

But Toyota is the brand you just described "a company that just offer fuel efficient, mundane, FWDs then there is no point in supporting a company that is no longer true to its roots."

I feel like Ford will always have exciting products.

Then we come to this decade, and despite even better product in many ways (can anyone say Aura? Solstice? Malibu? Trucks? Cadillac's entire line??), the excitement has completely waned to a trickle. The soul seems to be gone, despite ever-better product. It seems like GM has completely lost the attention and desire of the general public. Need proof??

1) Compare a dimunitive little Astra to ANY subcompact GM has made in 30 years...and how many they made before, yet this car wasn't even winked at.

2) The wide acclaim the '97-'03 Grand Prix received, compared to the complete dis-interest the '04-'08 received, and now the G8.

3) The fact that in the mid-'90s, you couldn't spit without seeing a Z24 around the corner...yet I can't even remember the last Cobalt SS I saw.

4) Pontiac went from "We Build Excitement" to "We Build Rental Cars"

5) My high school parking lot when I graduated in '98 was full of 3rd gens, S10 Blazers, '73-'87 full size pickups, Grand Ams and Berettas. Today its full of Civics, Accords, and Corollas.


Jason, your memory of the 80s and 90s GM is much rosier than mine. By '98, the GM cars were already gone from the high schools around here. From 1988 until 2002, the only GM cars that interested me were the F-bodies. Prior to that, I liked the F- and G-bodies, and the A-bodies up until 1982. However, even with the G-s, all I could see was lost potential. Why was there never a 350TPI in a Grand Prix? Or a 442. The GN and GNX were cool, but turbo 6s didn't do it for me back then.

I have no fond memories of the '97-'02 Grand Prixs at all.

Today, there are G8s, incredibly capable Camaros, and even the 'Vette is a quality piece (C4 did not appeal to me at all). Plus, for the first time ever, there are a Caddy or two that appeals.

Overall, I think the GM product of today is the most interesting since the early 70s. And the rumored product (Alpha) sounds great.

But Toyota is the brand you just described "a company that just offer fuel efficient, mundane, FWDs then there is no point in supporting a company that is no longer true to its roots."

I feel like Ford will always have exciting products.

The only thing Ford has now is the Mustang. I know there are others here who think the Taurus SHO is the bee's knees, but a 4300 pound 350hp sedan doesn't do it for me -- at least not when I can get a 4000 pound 360hp sedan for less money or a 415hp 4000 pounds sedan for the same money.

GM has Camaro, Corvette, and CTS (including the mighty CTS-V).

If I were in Oz, I'd be all over the Falcon (I don't know what SSbaby sees in .AU Toyotas), but it's not and never will be sold here.

I am sometimes confused when folks that choose to come to a GM model celebration site concern themselves whit much other than that which has an effect on that passion in particular. This is a place which exists because of the Camaro.


I'll admit to reading many GM forums and many competitor forums, but it is part of being good at what I do. I read them to find what is motivating their choices because I want their business.

Someone being amazed to find brand loyalty on a brand model site is amusing to me.

I don't expect people on a Camaro site to be loyal or interested in much other than that. It would be nice if they were, but logic doesn't dictate it.


Bingo!

I deleted my exact same comments thinking I might inflame discussion... that was until I read your comment! :D

That's what flabbergasts me... how could people who love the 5G also support GM's demise? :think:

Some people aren't thinking with their brains switched on. I've read numerous posts about "Ford looking better each day" and GM importing Chinese made cars... but have those same people also given thought to Ford potentially following GM down the same path... all in the name of staying competitive? :eek: How many of those same people also shop at Walmart?

Without GM, the American car industry is over, much like the TV is no longer built in the USA! Obviously, that suits some people just fine!

All they have to do is build something I want...

All they have to do is build something I want...

such as......

If I were in Oz, I'd be all over the Falcon (I don't know what SSbaby sees in .AU Toyotas), but it's not and never will be sold here.

Simple. I own two Toyotas (2003 Camry and 2008 Highlander)! Both great "A to B" transport and exceptionally great quality and reliability.

Ford aren't exactly setting the sales charts alight here. The reasons are varied but Ford products here aren't exactly known for their quality, service and reliability. In comparison Holden is viewed in a similar but more favourable light than Ford here - Holden have a well earned reputation for their product which has paved the way for export opportunities.

On the subject of Ford vs Holden: Ford's V8 is generally considered inferior in every way to the Holden V8 (although Ford's turbo 6 is a weapon, just not my style). So why would I bother with the Ford? :lol:

My love for the old GM stuff hasn't changed, probably never will.

The new Camaro is THE ONLY GM vehicle I would seriously consider buying brand new. There's nothing else in the last 12 years I've been driving that GM has had that I would have bought brand new, not even the 4th gen... sorry fellas... but I would definitely buy a used one :D

So... for me, I guess it's increased?



4) Pontiac went from "We Build Excitement" to "We Build Rental Cars"


:lol: SO TRUE!



5) My high school parking lot when I graduated in '98 was full of 3rd gens, S10 Blazers, '73-'87 full size pickups, Grand Ams and Berettas. Today its full of Civics, Accords, and Corollas.




I graduated in '99, I have the same "memories." LOTS of S-10 pickups and blazers, 3rd gens and a few 4th gen camaros, lots of cavliers, etc. When I went to college, it was almost like a switch was flipped and the lots were packed with civics and various other small imports, but the Civic was clearly the "dominating chick car."

But Toyota is the brand you just described "a company that just offer fuel efficient, mundane, FWDs then there is no point in supporting a company that is no longer true to its roots."


Don't get me wrong. Toyota are just better than GM at doing it, IMHO.

You can be sure that if GM disappear tomorrow, Ford won't have to offer V8s or RWD downunder. Ford will just become a whitegoods company.

Toyota make fantastic whitegoods on wheels so that suits me fine... at least until I can afford a German machine... which will probably be never!

Don't get me wrong. Toyota are just better than GM at doing it, IMHO.

You can be sure that if GM disappear tomorrow, Ford won't have to offer V8s or RWD downunder. Ford will just become a whitegoods company.

Toyota make fantastic whitegoods on wheels so that suits me fine... at least until I can afford a German machine... which will probably be never!

Opps, I forgot you were in Australia. If GM goes under you will still have Holden. I don't think they will be going anywhere. Probably break off on their own and then continue to get engine/transmissions from whom ever owns GM powertrain. GM makes fantastic V8s and automatics, some one will buy those assets and continue making them and selling the to companies like Holden I'm sure.

Don't get me wrong. Toyota are just better than GM at doing it, IMHO.

You can be sure that if GM disappear tomorrow, Ford won't have to offer V8s or RWD downunder. Ford will just become a whitegoods company.

Toyota make fantastic whitegoods on wheels so that suits me fine... at least until I can afford a German machine... which will probably be never!

Yeah, with the prices the German machines command down there....

What's a BMW 550i, something like $150K?

Yeah, with the prices the German machines command down there....

What's a BMW 550i, something like $150K?

Actually, i was thinking 3-series (325 is $80K :eek: )!

550i
6-speed automatic transmission with Steptronic AUD$162,400

550i with M Sport Package
6-speed automatic transmission with Steptronic AUD$165,400

Normally, I wouldn't pay more than AUD$45K for my new car. That's my limit.

It's a good thing I have self-control when it comes to cars. :D

There are plenty of high dollar GM cars that I would drive in there current line up. (for Now) I just have fond memories of more affordable GM cars. Bring back the Grand nationalas (GNX), Syclones, Tyfoons, TTAs ect..

The absence of Camaro and the current state of GM led me to a FORD SHELBY GT500. I am in the market for a Camaro 2SS but delares are asking way to much over MSRP in the Houston area. My last visit to a chevy dealer had me leaving thinking GM and its dealers deserve what they age getting.....

At least I'll always have great classic GM cars to drive. Maybe I could find a nice TTA or Syclone....

The absence of Camaro and the current state of GM led me to a FORD SHELBY GT500. I am in the market for a Camaro 2SS but delares are asking way to much over MSRP in the Houston area. My last visit to a chevy dealer had me leaving thinking GM and its dealers deserve what they age getting.....


GM has no power over these dealers, as the dealers are protected by state franchise laws. GM sells cars to the dealers at the invoice price.

Did you actually offer to buy a car at MSRP? The asking price is almost never the selling price of a car.

I understand dealers are acting on there own. But GM could not allocate any more camaros to dealers that are selling above MSRP.


I offered MSRP to a local dealer that had 3 Camaro SS cars unsold on the lot. But now im going to take a wait and see approch. Im going to see what the 2011 Mustang GT or SE Mustang is going to bring to the table.

I understand dealers are acting on there own. But GM could not allocate any more camaros to dealers that are selling above MSRP.


Not really. That would likely be a franchise law violation, as it would effectively be telling the dealer what they could sell the car for.

I have less passion for GM. When I was a kid I was crazy about Chevrolet. I thought my dads pickup truck was the coolest truck out there. A close friend's dad had a jacked up 70s Chevy that was pretty sweet too. The Vette and the Camaro were awesome and forget Ford or Dodge, let alone imports from anywhere but Italy. As I approached driving age I knew that I was going to buy a Camaro. First I wanted a third gen, then an LT1 car, then I decided I would try to convince my parents to help me out with a LS1 SS. That didnt work out and somewhere along the way I discovered and fell in love with the 69s. My mom bought a new car, so I got her 1990 Accord for 500 and was able to put the rest of the money I had saved up towards my 69.

When I was shopping for a used car to replace the Accord last year I tried to find something I wanted from the American companies, but everything I liked was too expensive or too impractical. There was no point in going with a GTO or Terminator when I have the 69 to play with. The C5 cant seat 4. The CTS and LS were disappointing. It seemed like half the cars I looked at had the same interior quality as my Accord, if not worse. I think thats when my GM love really started to slip.

My love for GM is still there for sure. And I think right now the new products are there or coming to make a difference. We have some models that are outdated, but that happens in this industry. As somebody already said, this is a golden age of GM performance. I'm disappointed in the current state of GM, but I understand that killing Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer is supposed to make GM stronger in the end. I understand wholely that every car that comes out cannot be a performance vehicle. What I do NOT understand is the recent reports that we're going to get more Chinese made vehicles. What I do not understand is the continuous stupid decisions, such as the talk of moving the sub-CTS Caddy to EpsilonII. Why throw away the progress that has been made with creating BLS v.2? That's exaggerated but the comment holds some water. It seems like lately there is always some decision that I read about that has me scratching my head wondering what they're thinking. Half the time it feels like its a one step forward, two steps back situation.

I don't have any less passion for GM's products or the brand. The new Camaro, the 2010 Lacrosse, the Corvette, the CTS... all are magnificent designs with great quality. People tend to lose perspective on just how good these new cars are. The Camaro SS for example, can run rings around previous versions. I believe once GM's done restructuring they will be making more great cars like these. GM's leadership though... I've lost a little respect for. I guess everyone makes mistakes. I'm hopeful things will change for the better as things get sorted out.

JasonE, you have PM

such as......

Something 2dr. V8 powered, RWD, manual trans, that isn't a Corvette, Camaro, or Caddy.

*Raises hand*

What's sad is that I have been MUCH more passionate about GM since around 2004 than I had ever been before. I had so much faith in the "impending revival" The one that probably would've happened if the government hadn't effed everything up by letting the market get greedy.

I'm very polar on the subject right now...

Part of me looks around and sees the vehicles that I love being killed left and right (Impala SS, Cobalt SS, HHR SS, Solstice, G8, STS-V, Saturn Sky, Saturn Outlook, etc.) and holds out little hope for GM...

But I'm a fighter... And I'll always have a love for GM, even if it's "the GM I knew" So, the other part of me looks around and says;

"Alright... This bloodshed had to happen... The strong brands have emerged! Now, let's attack the market with the beast that is/will become Chevrolet, immediately! We need to get a steady drip of marketing and vehicles from Opel for Buick STAT! We need to work on making GMC immune to falling truck sales and incorporate some Hummer attitude. And we need to ALLOW Cadillac to be the best in the world again."

That's just who I am and what I try to project on what I'm passionate about. If you get knocked down, you get right back up and move forward. And if you keep getting knocked down, you repeat the process until you're too dead to get back up again.

Oldsmobile was a big hit for me, but only because of the history and significance of the name. Saturn, Hummer and Saab made me sad, but we could live without them. Pontiac, however, was a huge blow to me... That was MY brand. The brand I identified with, even if it didn't mean the same thing to a lot of buyers and even if it was a shadow of itself in so many ways. I went to a Pontiac dealer this weekend and made peace with the fact that all of the new models (except Solstice and G8) were a disgrace to a once proud brand. And I also made peace with the fact that Chevy could probably sell either of the afore mentioned.

I went to a local Camaro reveal this week, rather unenthusiastically. I looked at the car (which is gorgeous) and looked at the salesman and said: "You know, I own 2 Camaros, but I always viewed myself as more of a Pontiac guy now." To which he replied "Welcome back to Camaro and Chevrolet"

I think that raised my spirits a lot. I hate to see GM get rid of some of it's brands, but I also KNOW the potential that the remaining brands have IF FUNDED AND MANAGED CORRECTLY. And frankly, I can't WAIT to watch and participate in the new, smaller, empowered GM whipping some import ass.

Besides, maybe Pontiac will emerge again someday. GM obviously doesn't want to sell the brand and GM obviously tried to figure out a way to make it work. And if not, the spirit of what's lost remains in the company (in those that cared in the first place)

Here's to hoping that those in charge at GM realize the potential that they still have with this smaller, tougher than nails, entity that has more heritage in 4 brands than the entire asian market.

*Raises hand*

What's sad is that I have been MUCH more passionate about GM since around 2004 than I had ever been before. I had so much faith in the "impending revival" The one that probably would've happened if the government hadn't effed everything up by letting the market get greedy.

I'm very polar on the subject right now...

Part of me looks around and sees the vehicles that I love being killed left and right (Impala SS, Cobalt SS, HHR SS, Solstice, G8, STS-V, Saturn Sky, Saturn Outlook, etc.) and holds out little hope for GM...

But I'm a fighter... And I'll always have a love for GM, even if it's "the GM I knew" So, the other part of me looks around and says;

"Alright... This bloodshed had to happen... The strong brands have emerged! Now, let's attack the market with the beast that is/will become Chevrolet, immediately! We need to get a steady drip of marketing and vehicles from Opel for Buick STAT! We need to work on making GMC immune to falling truck sales and incorporate some Hummer attitude. And we need to ALLOW Cadillac to be the best in the world again."

That's just who I am and what I try to project on what I'm passionate about. If you get knocked down, you get right back up and move forward. And if you keep getting knocked down, you repeat the process until you're too dead to get back up again.

Oldsmobile was a big hit for me, but only because of the history and significance of the name. Saturn, Hummer and Saab made me sad, but we could live without them. Pontiac, however, was a huge blow to me... That was MY brand. The brand I identified with, even if it didn't mean the same thing to a lot of buyers and even if it was a shadow of itself in so many ways. I went to a Pontiac dealer this weekend and made peace with the fact that all of the new models (except Solstice and G8) were a disgrace to a once proud brand. And I also made peace with the fact that Chevy could probably sell either of the afore mentioned.

I went to a local Camaro reveal this week, rather unenthusiastically. I looked at the car (which is gorgeous) and looked at the salesman and said: "You know, I own 2 Camaros, but I always viewed myself as more of a Pontiac guy now." To which he replied "Welcome back to Camaro and Chevrolet"

I think that raised my spirits a lot. I hate to see GM get rid of some of it's brands, but I also KNOW the potential that the remaining brands have IF FUNDED AND MANAGED CORRECTLY. And frankly, I can't WAIT to watch and participate in the new, smaller, empowered GM whipping some import ass.

Besides, maybe Pontiac will emerge again someday. GM obviously doesn't want to sell the brand and GM obviously tried to figure out a way to make it work. And if not, the spirit of what's lost remains in the company (in those that cared in the first place)

Here's to hoping that those in charge at GM realize the potential that they still have with this smaller, tougher than nails, entity that has more heritage in 4 brands than the entire asian market.

That is such an excellent post! Thank you, I agree 100%. I think a lot of GM fans can benefit from this kind of inspiration!

One thing I can honestly say about this forum and the anti-GM tirade from some quarters... it usually makes for depressive reading. And I thought we all love Camaros?

I'm finding more posts from pro-capitalists, pro-Wall Street proponents than I do from pro-Camaro enthusiasts. At least I know GM provides me with products that give me fun times. The other topics are just kill-joys. At least I know there's more to life than just politics, banks and profits. You can't take any of those things to the grave with you!

Did I mention the word, "depressing"?

I think that raised my spirits a lot. I hate to see GM get rid of some of it's brands, but I also KNOW the potential that the remaining brands have IF FUNDED AND MANAGED CORRECTLY. And frankly, I can't WAIT to watch and participate in the new, smaller, empowered GM whipping some import ass.

Need to ditto this sentiment. The frustration for me in recent years is to see GM build an excellent line-up for Brand X, only to abandon it and start investing in Brand Y. It's been painfully obvious for a long time that GM simply could not afford all it's divisions. The decision-making process seemed more like desperation.

Get down to a set of 'core' brands and they might have a chance. Either Chevy beats Toyota and Cadillac beats Lexus, or they don't. There's no other brand for management to shift blame to when product and marketing doesn't cut it.

And I'll say it again. In 2011, GM won't have an uncompetitive car in production (except the Aveo and maybe the Impala). They won't have every segment covered, but from now on, quality beats quantity.

Great posts, guys. All that I can say is, for me personally, having sold Olds/Pontiac from '99 through March 2006, we had some great products that inspired me. Everything from GTPs to Auroras to Firebirds. Now, I look at what will be left, and I'm yawning all over...

1) Cruze is a great A to B car, but will there be an enthusiast version?
2) Malibu + no 2 door + no sports model = No Care
3) Future Buicks look great, but they're modeled after Acura and cheaper Lexus'. That's not me. At all.
4) I can't afford a Cadillac.
5) I don't need a truck or a crossover.

That leaves Camaro, once the G8 is gone. If it had a Malibu or G8-like dashboard, I'd already have one on order. Remember, I was one of the lucky ones who got to go see the concept unveiling (I still owe Scott a debt of gratitude for that one...). I want to worship this car...

But I can't...and there's nothing else, GM-wide, right now. :(

I feel like I'm experiencing a weird phenomenon lately. Since I was a little kid, who could barely see above a fender, let alone reach an accelerator pedal, I've been surrounded by and worshipped GM products. In the '80s, when I was a little kid, I was wowed by F bodies...G bodies (specifically my uncle's TPI '86 MC SS and another uncle's '85 GN)...Fieros...Corvettes (I still remember when I was about 5, and my father explained to me that a Corvette was made by Chevy! My little mind, even then, was aware enough that I could not comprehend how the same company that made my dad's brown '81 Chevette we were in could make such a beautiful car!)...and those big, beautiful RWD Caddies floating around all over downtown.

In the '90s, despite ever-declining market share, it seemed like even more cool things were coming. Turbo and DOHC 3.4 W bodies, 180hp 2.3 liter Grand Ams and Berettas, Z24s buzzing all over town, 4th gen F bodies, C5s :drool: took the breath away of my entire high school, s/c 3800 Bonnevilles, Grand Prixs, Regals, aggressive (but not completely overdone...yet) '92-'98 Grand Am SEs and GTs...hell, even the renaissance of Oldsmobile with the Aurora, Intrigue and Alero caught my eye. And to this day, I still think the '95-'98 Riviera is one of the most beautiful cars Buick ever produced.

Then we come to this decade, and despite even better product in many ways (can anyone say Aura? Solstice? Malibu? Trucks? Cadillac's entire line??), the excitement has completely waned to a trickle. The soul seems to be gone, despite ever-better product. It seems like GM has completely lost the attention and desire of the general public. Need proof??

1) Compare a dimunitive little Astra to ANY subcompact GM has made in 30 years...and how many they made before, yet this car wasn't even winked at.

2) The wide acclaim the '97-'03 Grand Prix received, compared to the complete dis-interest the '04-'08 received, and now the G8.

3) The fact that in the mid-'90s, you couldn't spit without seeing a Z24 around the corner...yet I can't even remember the last Cobalt SS I saw.

4) Pontiac went from "We Build Excitement" to "We Build Rental Cars"

5) My high school parking lot when I graduated in '98 was full of 3rd gens, S10 Blazers, '73-'87 full size pickups, Grand Ams and Berettas. Today its full of Civics, Accords, and Corollas.


I guess the point of this thread is just a realization that so many people have completely forgotten about even considering a GM for a purchase, no matter how well the product is now made, will anyone care? Is the passion for the product there? I even find myself questioning how much I care anymore. Oldsmobile and Pontiac were my 2 favorite divisions when I was growing up...both are obviously dead. I felt (and still feel) Saturn has the best overall line within GM...its dead.

Meanwhile, I can't afford a Cadillac, GM refuses to build a 2 door coupe other than the upcoming CTS Coupe and Camaro (and I still can't deal with the dash of the Camaro), and I have no interest in buying a truck. If I had been of ownership age in 1990, I could have easily seen myself buying a third gen...an H.O. Quad 4 N body (Beretta GTZ, Grand Am LE or SE)...Turbo Grand Prix...a Z24 or Turbo Sunbird. In 2000, I would've given a body part for an SS Camaro, or bought a GTP Coupe, or Alero GLS Coupe, or even an Intrigue. I did buy a Grand Am GT Coupe brand new just 2 years later.

But today, other than a G8, there is nothing. There is no Malibu 2 door...the Cobalt is old, ready to be replaced by the Cruze, and there's no sign of a sport Cruze coupe...the G6 coupe is DOA, and funky looking anyway...there is no Buick I want, no Cadillac I can afford, and no way to replace the 5th gen dashboard.


I wonder, how many others are like me? Those that have lost their desire for GM's products, despite the fact so many are, without question, superior to the offerings of years ago?

An interesting issue, I face. Now that I'm of age to buy my second, new GM product....I don't even want one :(

Jason, GM hasn't offered anything I'd actually buy in many years. I've really like the Chrysler 300C, the Dodge Charger, and even the Dodge Challenger. Ford spent good money in making the Mustang and Fusion interior beat those in Japanese imports.

My son worked at 2 Chrysler dealerships one in Phoenix and another here in San Francisco. He just recently picked up a job as a salesman at a Chevrolet dealership near Nashville Tennesee. He's experiencing a rude awakening.

While he could sell the living daylights out of Chrysler LX cars and Jeeps, he's finding Chevrolets (a car brand he has favored because of Camaro and Corvette) to be downright impossible to sell as easily as he sold Dodges and Chryslers, and Jeeps. When you think about it, it's no mystery.

Cobalts versus Focuses.

Impalas and Malibus versus Fusions.

Camaros are coming on line, and are the only thing people are intrested in buying from Chevrolet dealerships, but they are in no way the volume sellers that a Impala or Malibu should be. Ford has even leapfrogged GM in trucks..... badly. To add insult to injury, bankrupt Chrysler even has a better trailer control system than GM (though not better than Ford).

I can easily name grate GM Cars currently being made. But if the conversation revolves around mortal cars (not something that ends in SS, V or P), outside of the CTS, the G8, and the new Camaro, I really can't suggest any GM cars that outstrip anything the competition from Ford, Chrysler, or imports offer.

Yet back in the late 70s, even LM1 Caprice Classic coupes were cars that evoked a bit of excitement. My dad had one. It was a family car. A relative's Buick sedan had a fastback and a turbo. This was in a period when cars were supposedly bad.

The current Impala is boring. My sister told Scott that the then new Cobalt was no kore exciting than her old Cavalier. Despite T-tops accountinmg for something like 70% of 4th gen Camaro production, none is offered in the 5th gen (again to my sister's dismay).

There is no W-car coupe. The only Espilon coupe is from a division that won't exist in another 7 months. Solstice and Sky, GM arguably 2 most exciting normal cars outside Camaro are dead.

I think the Chrysler 300, Dodge Challenger, and Dodge Charger are all intresting cars. I think the SRT8 Cherokee is the only SUV I'd consider. The SRT4 Caliber more than makes up for it's ugly looks, and actually has a bit of personality. The new Ford Taurus is at the very least intresting... it looks good outside, and it's interior is amazing. The Fusion is almost equally so. The Crown Vic and Merc GM has been making great interiors for years, and the Maurader was a great car looking for an equally great engine, but still something many people would consider.

Outside of Cadillac, GM's standard issue "gotta-have-it's" are severly limited to IMHO the Aura and maybe the Malibu. Maybe the assorted Hummer. That's it.

I find it both extremely painful and halariously ironic that pretty much the only car that is generating a massive amount of intrest at GM, the car that very well could sve GM, the car that very well could boost both GM's image, and rally those at GM is the same car that would have never seen the light of day if it had to go through normal channels or produced the normal GM way. The Camaro represents not just how GM should have always brought a car to market, but also the way GM's approval process and mindset should operate.

Not towards GM, but in general regarding the industry.

1. It should not cost you a years salary to have a mode of transportation to get you from point A to B (not including maintenance and fuel).

2. It should not take an edition of 2000 pounds to get you there more comfortably than otherwise.

3. It doesn't cost more to make a car look better; it's all plastic, just different molds.

4. After 100 years, cars are not significantly better in terms of reliability, gas mileage, or cost of production.